VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #4

PAXIMUS said:

Well lets find out what went down girl. I see Mel isnt even on the FLASHING GIF apostle thingy.

Did you see the comment by piXy in an IM convo she had with Mel where Mel says Raz was threatening to kick her off the apostles team because she wasnt doing enough promo, but then Mel says she started to do better and won a free CD for it. So I dont know why she isnt listed in this pic lineup.

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yea something sounds fishy... seems to me by my searches that Mel did more then Emma.. but maybe Emma paid for more CDs.. who knows i guess.. just this is not making any sense to me.. alot of lines are not adding up with these people.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused about something. Melanie was a satanist and declared such on every profile I have seen on her online. Her funeral was held at South Berkeley Chapel in Inwood officiated by Pastor Jeff McLeod. How does that go together? I cannot imagine someone who shunned Christianity outwardly would want a funeral at a chapel by a pastor. What do atheists normally do for funerals? I'm not sure on Emma cause I was not privy to her myspace, but I imagine her beliefs were similar, yet she too had a service at a church officiated by a minister. I thought about the family wanting it that way, but that is not what the deceased person would have wanted (I wouldn't think) and isn't a funeral supposed to be in respect of the deceased? I have read atheists say they would never want a church or minister to have anything to do with their funerals.

Nessa said:

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused about something. Melanie was a satanist and declared such on every profile I have seen on her online. Her funeral was held at South Berkeley Chapel in Inwood officiated by Pastor Jeff McLeod. How does that go together? I cannot imagine someone who shunned Christianity outwardly would want a funeral at a chapel by a pastor. What do atheists normally do for funerals? I'm not sure on Emma cause I was not privy to her myspace, but I imagine her beliefs were similar, yet she too had a service at a church officiated by a minister. I thought about the family wanting it that way, but that is not what the deceased person would have wanted (I wouldn't think) and isn't a funeral supposed to be in respect of the deceased? I have read atheists say they would never want a church or minister to have anything to do with their funerals.

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I am sure the funeral was the parents decision and they probably didnt approve of or take her satanism declarations seriously.

I am athiest/buddhist and I dont really care much what sort of funeral I have, I have it on paper that anything useable should go to science and the rest cremated and spread near my home in Sedona, Arizona.

If you were Christian and your teenage child was dabbling in Satanism and declared him or herself to be a practicing Satanist and they died would you honor that or have a Christian funeral for them?

I am not sure what I would do, if I thought they were serious about it and well informed I would probably honor that for them but I am not a Christian and I dont see many Christians who would. They would certainly think they were sending their own child to hell.

Of course we do not know what Mel's parents beliefs are.

From page 7 of Raz's apostle page:


(caption) KNOW ABOUT IT. OR GO GET FREE HAND JOBS FROM THE SKR REJECTS CLUB.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ture&friendID=64907055&albumId=1542959&page=7

This definition of an "Unholy Apostle" is written is past tense. I realize Raz is not an English teacher, but "which were the group of" and "whom Razakel had chosen" sound too contrived to have been written inadvertently. Is she trying to tell us something here, or am I just lost again?

PAXIMUS said:

Cross posted from other thread for reference:

I recall one detective saying that the room the females were found in was a seperate area from the main house seperated by what he called in his words, "a sort of BREEZEWAY" this would imply to me that it may have been a small GUEST HOUSE and that was likely where Emma lived. When the cops came in to the main house they immediately went upstairs to check bedrooms, then after realized there was a guest house and thats where the females were. IMO and from what I have read.


This also suggests that Emma and Mel were possibly killed first in their little seperated guest house and when mom came back the next morning maybe to check on them Sam blindsided her. This is also why the cops didnt smell anything when they came to the mainhouse and checked the basement.

When Dad came over he saw Debs van in the driveway went in and called out and she didnt answer so he went upstairs to what was probably moms bedroom to see if she was in there, Sam sneaked up behind him up there and whacked him.

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Things get a little hard to follow when the forum jumps. Not to pick on you Pax, but this seemed like you pulled together a few things that have to do with what I've been thinking.

All the early reports had the police finding the 3 females first when they smelled something that indicated there may be dead bodies and then then obtaining a search warrant which led to the finding of the 4th body, the father's.

I've long suspected that either Sam as the guest or Emma as the teenager wanting her own space occupied the "guest house." It could actually be both, if Emma usually had it as a hang out and it was then used as a guest room for Sam while she and Mel were in her bedroom in the main house. The only thing I've had a hard time with is figuring out where a bedroom would be in the little house. I mentioned in an earlier post that the upstairs would have to be very small. If it were built with 16' joists, which is about what it looks like, it would have 15' +- of usable floor space. The roof pitch looks like it's pretty close to 12/12 or 45 degrees. That doesn't leave much room for standing. My numbers probably aren't 100% right on, but they can't be too far off. The breezeway is in line with the entry door at the driveway. That and the chimney severely limits the possible placement of the stairs to whatever upper floor. They also have to be placed so there is head clearance going up, which further cuts into floor space upstairs. I'm an architect/builder by the way, so I have had to deal with just how difficult it can be to fit all of that together. Someone local, (peace_gurl? maybe) said the girls and Ms. Kelley were upstairs in the little house. I'm trying to visualize that and how he might have gotten them there and why. If anyone can provide a scan of a floor plan sketch, even rough, that would be great.


My thought on the killing, is that a hammer was used for that, and then the maul was used to mutilate/rage on the bodies. A maul is just to heavy in my opinion to use on a quick killing spree. Despite reports of Sam running, I don't see any signs of fitness in any of his photos of footage of him in motion. I've worked with a lot of actors and dancers, and I see a stream of joggers past my house virtually every day. I've spent a lot of time looking at how they all move and paying attention to little body language details. I'm not a professional, but I just don't see signs of fitness or bodily control in any of the images of Sam, whether motion or still.

It's actually a little weird (but is there a detail here that isn't?) that Mr. Neiderbrock was hit first with a chunk of wood. If it was something Sam was waiting to do, I'd think his trust weapon form the others would have been the thing he's use. Mr. Neiderbrock probably did call to try to reach Kelley, but if he was already suspicious of Sam, and knew he had a troubled daughter, I can't see him calling to warn them he was coming if he thought they were up to something. I can see that he might use a cellphone from the porch or the driveway, since he would have seen the van in the driveway. It would make sense that he would try to knock at the front door too before trying to enter if he did have a key. I think Sam was caught relatively off guard and had to act. I've also been thinking that Sam's reason for calling the police might have been to try to throw them off by letting them into the house in a controlled fashion to sort of say "hey look, there's nothing going on here."

coastal said:

From page 7 of Raz's apostle page:

(caption) KNOW ABOUT IT. OR GO GET FREE HAND JOBS FROM THE SKR REJECTS CLUB.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ture&friendID=64907055&albumId=1542959&page=7

This definition of an "Unholy Apostle" is written is past tense. I realize Raz is not an English teacher, but "which were the group of" and "whom Razakel had chosen" sound too contrived to have been written inadvertently. Is she trying to tell us something here, or am I just lost again?

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I think this is purposely written in this manner to make it sound "ancient" and "biblical" therefore also scary and cool from the horrorcore mindset.

Let's see if we can put this together with some of the locals. There is no guest house. It's all one structure. I originally thought the left side used to be a garage, but look at the aerial view and the home and that section are built back toward the back yard.
Peacegurl: Is that section that looks like an add on from the back the kitchen? When you enter from the rear of the house, is the entry into the breezeway or kitchen?
When you enter through the main front door, Is the living room to the immediate right? Then where is the den and where are the stairs to the second floor? Is there a hallway that just goes straight back from the front entry to the kitchen? When you enter, what is to the left?
Is there a separate door from the main part of the house into the breezeway or is it all open? God I have a lot of questions!!!



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If we look at the aerial images of the house, we see that it's really quite large. In one of the earlier threads, I had asked a local about the "guest house" (I called it a mother-in-law suite). The commenter had been to the house when the previous owners lived there. If I understood them correctly, this wing (which looks like a converted garage) does not have an outside entrance. (I may be wrong on that; it may be that only the upstairs rooms don't have an outside entrance.) The upstairs "addition" has two bedrooms, one in front and one in back, and it is only accessible through the house.

As best I can tell, the father was found in the front upstairs bedroom of the addition. This is the room that locals tell us has had the windows open (to air out) since the bodies were discovered.

I agree that it's likely Emma and Mel were staying in her room and Sam was in the other one. We really don't know who occupied which room, but it's a large house and given some of her online conversations I'm guessing Emma had chosen a bedroom as far away from her mother as possible.

coastal said:

From page 7 of Raz's apostle page:

(caption) KNOW ABOUT IT. OR GO GET FREE HAND JOBS FROM THE SKR REJECTS CLUB.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ture&friendID=64907055&albumId=1542959&page=7

This definition of an "Unholy Apostle" is written is past tense. I realize Raz is not an English teacher, but "which were the group of" and "whom Razakel had chosen" sound too contrived to have been written inadvertently. Is she trying to tell us something here, or am I just lost again?

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That "had chosen" part is past perfect, actually. My impression of that is that she's mimicking the sound of Biblical verbs: "had chosen" rather than "chose."

dangrsmind said:

I think this is purposely written in this manner to make it sound "ancient" and "biblical" therefore also scary and cool from the horrorcore mindset.

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Dude!! You a linguist??

Just on the subject of a maul being too heavy, I am not sure I agree here. I used to live in a house that was heated primarily by two wood burning stoves and I had to split my own wood. I used an 8 pound sledgehammer and a wedge. I am certain I could have used the hammer as a weapon at the time. Now I am soft so idk if I could do it. I think a lot depends on the weight of the maul in question (they vary quite a bit) and Sam's physical condition.

tapu said:

Dude!! You a linguist??

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Not a linguist, but one of my current research efforts involves natural language processing by computers.

I'm a professional dabbler.

dangrsmind said:

Just on the subject of a maul being too heavy, I am not sure I agree here. I used to live in a house that was heated primarily by two wood burning stoves and I had to split my own wood. I used an 8 pound sledgehammer and a wedge. I am certain I could have used the hammer as a weapon at the time. Now I am soft so idk if I could do it. I think a lot depends on the weight of the maul in question (they vary quite a bit) and Sam's physical condition.

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I'm with ya. My husband is a beanpole and he hauls around sound equipment all by himself… and he's a grandfather. At 20 years old, Sam was in about as peak a condition as he ever will be (if he doesn't take up weightlifting in jail). I have no problem imagining a 20-year old male could wield that maul.

NativeGirl said:

Ragd0ll

Another interesting thing I came across Raz has all the Apostle’s on her page… only one thing is missing and that’s Mel’s Apostle Photo.. We know she has one, why is it no longer on Raz page?? RagDoll is there.. Maybe Pixy could make things clear.. Things are just not adding up…

Another note….Thought it was funny that Emma,Mel or even Sam did not write on Raz’s or Sick’s page about seeing them at the concert and how great it was.. I think something had to go down at the concert….

------->Link to UNHOLY APOSTLES
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ture&friendID=64907055&albumId=1542959&page=8

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YouTube- Marilyn Manson - Disposable Teens

You said you wanted evolution
The ape was a great big hit
You said you wanted revolution, man
And I say that you're full of ****
Yeah yeah yeah

We're disposable teens
We're disposable teens
We're disposable teens
We're disposable
We're disposable teens
We're disposable teens
We're disposable teens
We're disposable

dangrsmind said:

Just on the subject of a maul being too heavy, I am not sure I agree here. I used to live in a house that was heated primarily by two wood burning stoves and I had to split my own wood. I used an 8 pound sledgehammer and a wedge. I am certain I could have used the hammer as a weapon at the time. Now I am soft so idk if I could do it. I think a lot depends on the weight of the maul in question (they vary quite a bit) and Sam's physical condition.

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Just to reiterate this: I agree that while it's heavy, it's certainly not too heavy.

I have a hard time understanding where Emma's room was. A poster here said it was upstairs in the small part of the house and I thought it must be small with the slope of the roof.

Next, the search warrants say SKR posters etc. were collected from the front bedroom. To me that says Emma's room was the downstairs front bedroom, otherwise, wouldn't they have detailed the "upstairs" part of the bedroom in the search warrant?

Now, if all three females were found in that front bedroom, that would be Emma's room and I doubt Debra slept there so there so either she was
#1) killed first with the two girls present, or #2) after Emma and Mel as she came in to check on them or was otherwise lured , or #3) she was killed elsewhere and dragged there.
#3 seems unlikely unless Sam cleaned up the trail.

If Emma's room is upstairs, what is below it?
When you enter the door from the outside into the breezeway, what is the room like that you are standing in? When you go left toward Emma's room is there a door? Where are the stairs to the upstairs part of that small section of the home?

ziggy said:

I have a hard time understanding where Emma's room was. A poster here said it was upstairs in the small part of the house and I thought it must be small with the slope of the roof.

Next, the search warrants say SKR posters etc. were collected from the front bedroom. To me that says Emma's room was the downstairs front bedroom, otherwise, wouldn't they have detailed the "upstairs" part of the bedroom in the search warrant?

Now, if all three females were found in that front bedroom, that would be Emma's room and I doubt Debra slept there so there so either she was
#1) killed first with the two girls present, or #2) after Emma and Mel as she came in to check on them or was otherwise lured , or #3) she was killed elsewhere and dragged there.
#3 seems unlikely unless Sam cleaned up the trail.

If Emma's room is upstairs, what is below it?
When you enter the door from the outside into the breezeway, what is the room like that you are standing in? When you go left toward Emma's room is there a door? Where are the stairs to the upstairs part of that small section of the home?

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Ziggy, you might be right. I'd always assumed that the bedrooms were upstairs, but the first floor makes more sense.

We need a local who knows the layout to give us a detailed description or sketch it out for us.

About those SKR posters....something to write on with a Sharpie?

Just a thought.

I was thinking blood splatter

dangrsmind said:

About those SKR posters....something to write on with a Sharpie?

Just a thought.

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Sam probably autoraphed the posters since the graphic work was probably his lol.

Good point though perhaps the sharpie are tied to the posters or it was blood splatter on them as Zig suggests, that made the cops take them.