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I know there are much bigger questions within the scope of this whole mystery - but one that keeps tugging at me is: What in the world could have been responsible for that metal-scraping-on-concrete sound which one of the neighbors heard? Garbage cans being drug to a door? Snowshovel clearing a path? Dislodging a frozen gate? Or something completely unrelated? Bugs me because I want to think the possible answers and their implications would have to be pretty limited - yet I can't settle on anything that helps.

Annette
 
SuperDave said:
"I'm sorry to get so graphic, so please don't read my question if you are sensitive. My question is why would the sexual pervert, whether John or another male use the paint brush for vaginal penetration rather than a more intimate way such as a finger? Sorry! This has been bugging me for ages, and why I believe it was Patsy rather than John or an intruder. They would want it more "personal" interaction, wouldn't you think?"

Totally agree. The FBI said this was not done for gratification.
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And lets not forget that pedophiles, are child molestors who, according to all stats are repeat offenders, and never "cured". There had never been, nor since, ever been a child who was killed in this manner. IMO, had it been an intruder, there would have been reports of another victim. Lets give the benefit of the doubt, and say he died or was imprisoned for some reason. He would have still commited child abuse, using auto asphixia before or after JBR, before being imprisoned or having died. Never, ever happened. That dog don't hunt, as they say. What was done to JBR, was ONCE in history considering ALL the facts (garrotte, sexual rape using an implement all while staying in the home, leaving her in the home, etc. etc. etc) THIS is one of the many reasons that leads me to fully believe it was a family member.
 
[Bev]
3. How did that blood get in the underwear? She's been wiped clean, but there is blood on the crotch panel - so she had to have had them on, been injured, wiped clean, and then the underwear put back on with the longjohns with the urine stain in the front - otherwise, how could the blood have gotten there? Which means she had that pair of underwear on, she was injured, the underwear were pulled up, and then someone thought better of it, pulled them down, wiped her clean and then pulled the underwear back up. How else could the blood have gotten on that part of the underwear?
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JB was still alive (though probably in a coma) when the paintbrush injury was inflicted, for otherwise the wound would not have bled. And I suppose that after she was wiped down and the size 12 panties were put on her, some blood from the vaginal wound seeped into the panties.

4. Patsy Ramsey was so insistent on the ransom note being on the spiral staircase, saying, "and that's how I come down every morning." How would an intruder know that? Why not leave it in her bed, or on the kitchen counter or the windshield of the car, or the steps leading down from their bedroom, where the parents would be sure of seeing it.
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Did Patsy actually say she stepped over the ransom note? For stepping over something on a spiral staircase is quite difficult and might easily land you on the floor. Where exactly was the RN spread out? On more than one stair?
 
Paperdoll,you made a good point about the fact that if the neighbor supposedly heard a scream,why didn't she call the police? probably because she never did hear one---on the other hand,there are many "Kitty Genovese" stories,where people hear screams and don't care---for those who don't know,Kitty Genovese was beaten and then murdered in NYC in 1964--despite dozens of people hearing her screams,no one called the police--Its the most infamous case of people "not wanting to get involved" there was--but there are many others--The Wonderland murders in Los Angeles where four people were beaten to death in revenge for robbing a drug dealer had several people hearing screams but none called the cops
 
sheba1 said:
I'm sorry to get so graphic, so please don't read my question if you are sensitive. My question is why would the sexual pervert, whether John or another male use the paint brush for vaginal penetration rather than a more intimate way such as a finger? Sorry! This has been bugging me for ages, and why I believe it was Patsy rather than John or an intruder. They would want it more "personal" interaction, wouldn't you think?
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The vaginal injury obviously was inflicted for staging purposes: the stager wanted to create a wound which should bleed, and using an 'instrument' for that purpose is more effective than trying to injure the child digitally. Dr. McCann said that the object was not just shoved in, but jabbed in, and would have been very painful had the child been conscious.
Imo the vaginal wound was intended to mask the signs of chronic abuse in JB's body.
 
Annette said:
I know there are much bigger questions within the scope of this whole mystery - but one that keeps tugging at me is: What in the world could have been responsible for that metal-scraping-on-concrete sound which one of the neighbors heard? Garbage cans being drug to a door? Snowshovel clearing a path? Dislodging a frozen gate? Or something completely unrelated? Bugs me because I want to think the possible answers and their implications would have to be pretty limited - yet I can't settle on anything that helps.

Annette
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I'm thinking it was an object in the windowless room. The police took a large piece of sheet metal during their search. You can see it in one of the photos. If that had to be moved, i.e. slid out of the way, it could make a metal-scraping-on-concrete sound.

Someone else has speculated that it was the paint cans being slid over.
 
cindysnow3 said:
My question may seem odd to others, but why such a major holiday as "Christmas", especially with young children, would ya just umm.. say "forget" to charge batteries for your video camera? Johns' answer basically just doesn't cut it with me, because he contradicts his own self. This information is from his and Patsy's own book. So for him to say they didn't make home video's since Beth's death is a flat lie because they did. I don't believe anything this man says. I just wonder why they for some reason or another didn't want videos done on this Chrismas morning? Does anyone know if they had videos made Christmas of 1995? I don't have this book and can't find info anywhere except that they had Christmas '95 in Boulder.



Cindy, perhaps John gave the excuse of not having the batteries charged because he did take Christmas morning video but for some reason he did not want anyone to see them. So he pretended the video was never shot.
JMO
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Besides, don't video cameras usually come with the ability to plug them in? We usually just plug ours in, set it on a table, and let it run...
 
azwriter said:
Cindy, perhaps John gave the excuse of not having the batteries charged because he did take Christmas morning video but for some reason he did not want anyone to see them. So he pretended the video was never shot.JMO
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That's another hinky spot for me! (my hinky meter is getting a work out today)

This no video that year makes me wonder who else was in the house that the Ramsey's didn't want known. I take that a step further and think that their suspicious behaviour points to either them doing it, or covering up for someone they know. Now, who would they cover for? A family member. Who would be on a Christmas video that they don't want seen? A family member. The only family members I can think of that would fit is Patsy's Dad or JAR. Both of which, as far as I know, have alibi's.
 
Betsy said:
Besides, don't video cameras usually come with the ability to plug them in? We usually just plug ours in, set it on a table, and let it run...
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And the video camera was on a tripod.
 
The scream in the night is a puzzler too. Someone on this board suggested that the scream was from Patsy, and that actually made more sense to me - hearing the child's head hit something, might make the mom let out a scream. I agree with Hamilton that people hear screams and don't call LE all the time.

The metal scraping is curious too. At one time I wondered if perhaps one of the Ramseys pulled the sewer grate away to throw the tape down into the sewer, then I considered the scenario that someone moved the gas grill in the back of the house (which was practically on the window grate) to set up a more obvious window break-in and thought better of it. Like Annette, I'm not wondering if it had anything to do with it at all. One likely explanation is that someone in the neighborhood was cleaning up after a Christmas party and took trash out to the garbage cans.

rashoman's question about PR first saying she stepped over the note is another odd bit of info that the Ramseys' threw into the cauldron. (Of course she told three different stories about what happened that morning so who knows?) It was very important in her mind that she did not touch that note for some reason (and I think we know what that is) and then JR's story that he spread the note out on the floor and got down on his hands and knees to read it - that's just dumb. There's a counter right there - why not spread the note out on the counter or just pick the damned thing up to read it? IMO, I think the Ramseys got their stories crossed up - one or the other thought the note was supposed to be left by the door, where JR left it, and the other thought it was supposed to be left on the stairs - once it was out, they were stuck with it.

It's really difficult to remember all the little lies inside the big lies, and the Ramseys did what many people do when they're trying to convince people that the lies are true - they keep adding stupid details. Look at JR's story that he looked outside from a window with binoculars and saw a strange car (which just happened to look like McReynolds by the way) but doesn't seem to think it was worthy of mention to the cops. Or the window in the basement being open - or was it closed? I don't think he could remember.
 
IrishMist said:
That's another hinky spot for me! (my hinky meter is getting a work out today)

This no video that year makes me wonder who else was in the house that the Ramsey's didn't want known. I take that a step further and think that their suspicious behaviour points to either them doing it, or covering up for someone they know. Now, who would they cover for? A family member. Who would be on a Christmas video that they don't want seen? A family member. The only family members I can think of that would fit is Patsy's Dad or JAR. Both of which, as far as I know, have alibi's.
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That's an interesting angle...But if someone were in the house that night, and if that someone did this, when did they leave? And why would they not have taken JB with them, to make it look like a kidnapping? OK, so maybe this person wouldn't want to take JB with them (imagine getting pulled over) but it would take a huge amount of trust on the Ramsey's part to trust that this person wouldn't screw up and get caught, leave any evidence, etc.

I guess it's possible...I just can't figure out who they would risk everything to cover up for. Other then themselves, of course.
 
Betsy said:
That's an interesting angle...But if someone were in the house that night, and if that someone did this, when did they leave? And why would they not have taken JB with them, to make it look like a kidnapping? OK, so maybe this person wouldn't want to take JB with them (imagine getting pulled over) but it would take a huge amount of trust on the Ramsey's part to trust that this person wouldn't screw up and get caught, leave any evidence, etc.

I guess it's possible...I just can't figure out who they would risk everything to cover up for. Other then themselves, of course.
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Well, if I stay with this line of thinking, and it's Grandpa or JAR, they would have to take a plane to get out of town. That would curtail taking the body with them.

AND, if I stay with this line of thinking, it would be easy enough to trace if either one was on a commercial flight, and I don't think their private pilot would be quiet to this day if he flew them.
 
azwriter said:
cindysnow3 said:
My question may seem odd to others, but why such a major holiday as "Christmas", especially with young children, would ya just umm.. say "forget" to charge batteries for your video camera? Johns' answer basically just doesn't cut it with me, because he contradicts his own self. This information is from his and Patsy's own book. So for him to say they didn't make home video's since Beth's death is a flat lie because they did. I don't believe anything this man says. I just wonder why they for some reason or another didn't want videos done on this Chrismas morning? Does anyone know if they had videos made Christmas of 1995? I don't have this book and can't find info anywhere except that they had Christmas '95 in Boulder.



Cindy, perhaps John gave the excuse of not having the batteries charged because he did take Christmas morning video but for some reason he did not want anyone to see them. So he pretended the video was never shot.
JMO
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Not every family is consistent with the video and photography. My husband and I are complete doorknobs when it comes to remembering cameras, video. We usually remember on Christmas morning that we have no film, or the video battery is dead. We lose parts, cords, etc.

We had a video camera, used it for a few years, then started to use it sporadically. I would guess around 97 or 98 is out last video we ever took. Had our child been murdered around then, the lack of video would not have been due to any desire on our part to cover it up.

I completely understand not always having the video camera ready at the right moment.
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=azwriter
Cindy, perhaps John gave the excuse of not having the batteries charged because he did take Christmas morning video but for some reason he did not want anyone to see them. So he pretended the video was never shot.
JMO
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azwriter, you may very well be right. I purchased this book (DOI) last night from ebay, and will check into some more things they have lied about, that I really question. I just can't seem to find documentation on. When I have the book I will know it was "their" own words.
 
The R's said, Since the older daughter's death in a car accident JR did not want videos taken of the children. (For what it's worth...that was the "R Spin" in answer to the question of why there was no video, in addition to the camera battery not being charged...Which brings up another inconsistancy...If JR didn't want videos taken, why mention the camera battery not being charged as a reason for no video?????)
 
sandraladeda said:
Not every family is consistent with the video and photography. My husband and I are complete doorknobs when it comes to remembering cameras, video. We usually remember on Christmas morning that we have no film, or the video battery is dead. We lose parts, cords, etc.

We had a video camera, used it for a few years, then started to use it sporadically. I would guess around 97 or 98 is out last video we ever took. Had our child been murdered around then, the lack of video would not have been due to any desire on our part to cover it up.

I completely understand not always having the video camera ready at the right moment.
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I understand it, too, BUT.
The video camera was found set up on it's tri-pod. (Was it plugged in, I wonder?) To me, that indicates it was used. I could be wrong, that's just the feeling I get.
 
angelwngs said:
The R's said, Since the older daughter's death in a car accident Jr did not want videos taken of the children. (For what it's worth...that was the "R Spin" in answer to the question of why there was no video, in addition to the camera battery not being charged...Which brings up another inconsistancy...If JR didn't want videos taken, why mention the camera battery not being charged as a reason for no video?????)
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Plus angelwngs in their own book like I said he contradicts himself cause he stated they made videos in '93 and '94 and Beth died Jan of '92 so they had made videos after her death.
 
Bev, In case you didn't see this show or had not heard this information...

A reenactment was done at some point after the murder, (I think by Ramsey investigators but possibly by LE???). There is a large vent pipe in the basement which it has been said actually magnifies the sound of a scream in the basement and carries it clearly to the neighbor's house. This was discussed in-depth on one of the "News Shows" covering the JBR murder in the past few weeks. I'm sorry but my oldtimer's memory can't remember which one. (Again, as evidence, this should be taken "for what it's worth". In my opinion that is totally dependent on "who" did the reenactment and who paid for it to be done...)
 
cindysnow3 said:
Plus angelwngs in their own book like I said he contradicts himself cause he stated they made videos in '93 and '94 and Beth died Jan of '92 so they had made videos after her death.
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Good point! (If I remember correctly I read their version that JR didn't want videos made when reading PR's interviews. Reguardless of whether JR or PR actually said it, it remains yet another inconsidtancy in their statements. IMO)
 
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