Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#16

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Originally Posted by Mouse Detective:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudra
Apologies, I don't post often, but try to read all the comments when I get the chance. I'm puzzled by the strong emphasis on DV in this case which has been brought up in many of the posts. I am not denying that DV may have been an issue in the marriage, and I am not denying that DV is a bad thing; but what confuses me is that it seems DV at times is being put forward for the motive of the murder, or even the cause of death.

DV may have resulted in ABC's death, but speaking technically it was not the cause of her death: cause of death would be a blow to the head; drowning, suffocation etc. An as yet we don't know what COD was.

A trickier question is whether DV by itself is the motivation for murder. I can see some people would believe it so; that there are men who are naturally inclined to inflicting violence on their spouses for the sole purpose of having control at any cost. But even then I would argue that DV is an outcome of a control issue. That is, the spouse who wants more control uses violence to get it. In fact there are many people who use violence to get control over others.

I think I am trying to say that when it comes down to the basics, someone wanted to get control over ABC, and they did. When it comes to motive, the question is why did they want / need that control over her?

I realise that this has been implicit in many of the discussions before, but I have never really seen the question of motive explored in detail so far.
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I agree "control" is at the heart of many of these more complex cases. Who may have become frustrated by the control Allison had? or Who felt that they had no control over Allison or the domain that she controlled?
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Motive - well there were a range of financial and relationship reasons. GBC had a mistress who the BC parents favoured and they possibly saw her as someone who could help revitalise the failing business, whereas Allison had already turned her interests to something that was more humanitarian and something that would benefit the girls directly, as well as other children - the Pathways program.

The family name and strong and successful image was very important to the Baden-Clays, evidenced by their adoption of the Baden prefix, and the touting of NBC's hunting prowess. I feel the elder BC's saw themselves as leaders and above others. A big financial fall and business bust might have been the ultimate humiliation for this family. Gerard had for some reason decided to expand and take on larger premises at a time when people were downscaling or consolidating, and a lot of money was risked including the BC seniors money.

They had invested everything into this, it wasn't working out well enough, and Allison had abandoned ship and gone her own way - possibly a way of feeling like she was doing something more worthwhile, and removing herself from the environment where the mistress had worked and staff had possibly known. Maybe Allison was sick of the financial problems and just wanted Gerard to get out of it all and simplify their life.

Family pride and pressures on Gerard by his parents, particularly father, to live up to the standards and image set would have been a big issue. If he and Allison had been arguing and she was speaking about the affair, the money problems, the control of his parents etc, it could easily have escalated into him killing her. The expression 'the truth hurts' is taken to extreme in a sociopath or narcissist, (IMO) and when they hear things they don't want to hear, especially about themselves, they come to hate the source of that information and can easily go into a rage and have to immediately silence the person, eliminate them, the source of all their pain and problems as they see it. I believe that is what happened on that night. This would have been part of GBC's motive whether it was pre-meditated or not.

If it was pre-meditated, there was the insurance policy and possibly also the issue of a divorce and settlement which would not be financially beneficial to the BC's, and there may have also been some sort of position in the company held by Allison, which if she withdrew would have a detrimental effect.

If it wasn't premeditated, if Gerard got himself into problems with body disposal and needed help, help would have been provided by NBC, a choice to cover up would have been made to try to ensure the family name and image was preserved.

This of course, is JMO. If it is true, makes me so sad to think of how someone can be considered so disposable, and used as a scapegoat for everyone elses mistakes and failings.

Have considered other options but I can't see anything unless the entire police case is wrong.
 
Just rethinking possible motives if this crime was premeditated.

1. Life insurance. Why would someone be so obvious and take out a recent life ins policy for what could be perceived as relevantly piddling amounts (rumours from $250k to $600k)?
Maybe it was to 'topup' existing policies? As given the reported mortgage drawn upon Nigelaine's home of $300k? Wonder if GBC had similar 'keyman' insurance taken out at same time?
2. Until potential beneficiaries are fully excluded as persons of interest, no Ins Coy is going to pay out anything in the near future.
3. Property settlement issues - looks to me there may not be much to split, given their financial situation other than whatever financial interest remained in the business. After payback of family loan, payout of staff entitlements, ATO obligations, breaking of commercial lease etc could not be much..
4. Children.
5. New 'happy family' with potential new partner well accepted by GBC family and no 'reminder' around to make someone's fantasy awkward. More sympathy for GBC as a widower trying to raise those 3 little girls 'on his pwn' than being like everyone else having shared care arrangements and arguments over child support etc.

These are just my rambling 3am thoughts and just speculation.
 
Another fantastic post itsthevibe. You are undervalued here.

While the sleuthers sleep I can do some work : )
 
and to you too Woombite. : )

My thanks button won't let me thank your post.
 
itsthevibe said:
Motive - well there were a range of financial and relationship reasons. GBC had a mistress who the BC
I feel the elder BC's saw themselves as leaders and above others. A big financial fall and business bust might have been the ultimate humiliation for this family. Gerard had for some reason decided to expand and take on larger premises at a time when people were downscaling or consolidating, and a lot of money was risked including the BC seniors money ....

Family pride and pressures on Gerard by his parents, particularly father, to live up to the standards and image set would have been a big issue. If he and Allison had been arguing and she was speaking about the affair, the money problems, the control of his parents etc, it could easily have escalated into him killing her. The expression 'the truth hurts' is taken to extreme in a sociopath or narcissist, (IMO) and when they hear things they don't want to hear, especially about themselves, they come to hate the source of that information and can easily go into a rage and have to immediately silence the person, eliminate them, the source of all their pain and problems as they see it. ....

SNAP! Vibe! Maybe we have all spent so much time on this forum that we are in sync with our thoughts? LOL
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Curiousasacat said:
Another fantastic post itsthevibe. You are undervalued here.

While the sleuthers sleep I can do some work : )
Click to expand...

Oh thank you lovey - very kind of you, and very observant too I am so brilliant :giggle:

On that lovely note I am off to bed with thoughts of dear Allison who didn't deserve to receive the ultimate punishment for being such a talented, strong and sensitive human being. RIP dear Allison
 
itsthevibe said:
Motive - well there were a range of financial and relationship reasons. GBC had a mistress who the BC parents favoured and they possibly saw her as someone who could help revitalise the failing business, whereas Allison had already turned her interests to something that was more humanitarian and something that would benefit the girls directly, as well as other children - the Pathways program.

The family name and strong and successful image was very important to the Baden-Clays, evidenced by their adoption of the Baden prefix, and the touting of NBC's hunting prowess. I feel the elder BC's saw themselves as leaders and above others. A big financial fall and business bust might have been the ultimate humiliation for this family. Gerard had for some reason decided to expand and take on larger premises at a time when people were downscaling or consolidating, and a lot of money was risked including the BC seniors money.

They had invested everything into this, it wasn't working out well enough, and Allison had abandoned ship and gone her own way - possibly a way of feeling like she was doing something more worthwhile, and removing herself from the environment where the mistress had worked and staff had possibly known. Maybe Allison was sick of the financial problems and just wanted Gerard to get out of it all and simplify their life.

Family pride and pressures on Gerard by his parents, particularly father, to live up to the standards and image set would have been a big issue. If he and Allison had been arguing and she was speaking about the affair, the money problems, the control of his parents etc, it could easily have escalated into him killing her. The expression 'the truth hurts' is taken to extreme in a sociopath or narcissist, (IMO) and when they hear things they don't want to hear, especially about themselves, they come to hate the source of that information and can easily go into a rage and have to immediately silence the person, eliminate them, the source of all their pain and problems as they see it. I believe that is what happened on that night. This would have been part of GBC's motive whether it was pre-meditated or not.

If it was pre-meditated, there was the insurance policy and possibly also the issue of a divorce and settlement which would not be financially beneficial to the BC's, and there may have also been some sort of position in the company held by Allison, which if she withdrew would have a detrimental effect.

If it wasn't premeditated, if Gerard got himself into problems with body disposal and needed help, help would have been provided by NBC, a choice to cover up would have been made to try to ensure the family name and image was preserved.

This of course, is JMO. If it is true, makes me so sad to think of how someone can be considered so disposable, and used as a scapegoat for everyone elses mistakes and failings.

Have considered other options but I can't see anything unless the entire police case is wrong.
Click to expand...

We are on the same page! Excellent post!

:goodpost:
 
itsthevibe said:
Motive - well there were a range of financial and relationship reasons. GBC had a mistress who the BC parents favoured and they possibly saw her as someone who could help revitalise the failing business, whereas Allison had already turned her interests to something that was more humanitarian and something that would benefit the girls directly, as well as other children - the Pathways program.
Click to expand...

I think, TM also had a quite strong reason to get rid of Allison. She could have conspired with somebody to kidnap and murder Allison, provided she knew a lot about her lifestyle, what she does, when, etc.

If Allison was indeed found with her knees bent, it could indicate that she was for at least several hours in the boot of a car.
 
grannie said:
I think, TM also had a quite strong reason to get rid of Allison. She could have conspired with somebody to kidnap and murder Allison, provided she knew a lot about her lifestyle, what she does, when, etc.

If Allison was indeed found with her knees bent, it could indicate that she was for at least several hours in the boot of a car.
Click to expand...

Oh my! Confronting. Not having a go.
I was thinking of knee bent scenarios also. 1 being that your knees would be bent up if someone was on top with hands around neck if victim lying down.
But boot is the obvious one.

Do you think TM would go to such extremes, she would have to be one desperate lady to go to that extreme. What would he have that would make a woman do that to another woman/mother?
Thanks Gran
 
My apologies in advance if this has been posted before, even recently. I thought I was caught up on everything, but the posts come thick and fast and when you have to go to work it makes it difficult to catch up.

ANYWAY. Can someone confirm to me (by providing a source or link) that GBC did NOT have an Accountancy degree and has lied about it all this time.

If it is true this speaks volumes to me as to his character and shows that he is a lier and a fraud from way back not just in the past few months of a failing business. I can understand being under so much pressure with owning your own business that when things start to get tight with no light at the end of the tunnel a person could stoop to lies and fraud in desperation. However, lieing and carrying the lies on for years shows far more deceitfulness IMO.

Personally, having gone to Uni as a mature age student and working my butt off to get my qualifications, it really annoys me that people can put out this type of c r a p and get away with it for so long.

End of rant.
 
(Not directly on-topic but a relevant side topic for many)

I was just catching up on some late posts in the last thread and am concerned for the welfare of some of our websleuthing comrades.

This case has had a profound effect on many of us and has been preoccupying to the point of significantly impacting our daily routines at times (me included!).It's a great idea to take a break from it every now and then to maintain our own lives and mental health.

There are many aspects of our discussion that have the potential to inflame or traumatise us, especially those aspects that might parallel our own lives in some (even small) way. If this is happening to you PLEASE consider seeking support from a qualified counsellor. They can help you explore your troubling thoughts and hopefully accelerate your healing.

I recall one poster found these threads, and other's similar experiences, resonated with her life so strongly that it led to a personal breakthrough for her, helping her move on to a more positive frame of mind. So there are definite benefits in these thoughtful journeys - take solace in that, you can find yourself in a better place too, especially with a bit more (qualified) support.

Wishing you all well :)
 
Curiousasacat said:
Oh my! Confronting. Not having a go.
I was thinking of knee bent scenarios also. 1 being that your knees would be bent up if someone was on top with hands around neck if victim lying down.
But boot is the obvious one.

Do you think TM would go to such extremes, she would have to be one desperate lady to go to that extreme. What would he have that would make a woman do that to another woman/mother?
Thanks Gran
Click to expand...

Just a possibility.

Re: TM, just remember the case of the NASA astronaut, who tried to kill her rival. Her name was Lisa Nowak, if I remember correctly. She was charged with attempted murder.
 
I was just reading about the delay to the Corryn Rayney trial and read this little gem

'During the hearing this morning, Mr Edwardson said one of the things the defence was waiting on was a translation from Germany of computer data downloaded from Mrs Rayney's damaged Ford Fairmont, which was found dumped in nearby Kershaw Street in Subiaco.'

Considering Corryn's murder took place 5 years ago it is hard to believe this information is only just being obtained.

I wonder what data can ben gleaned from the cars used by the BC's and TM?
 
From previous thread Kiwi50 asked...

[Quote: Something that I have been thinking of for a while, do we know if Allison knew GBC's affair was ongoing? I know there was talk about GBC & Allison maybe dining out after the hairdresser, but don't think it was confirmed.[Quote

This is from the media report about the affair....

Friends were last year led to believe the relationship had ended but police have been told it was ongoing, helping to explain the repeated interviews of the former staffer.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...ate-wife-allison/story-fn7x8me2-1226361405897

Whether or not Allison knew it was ongoing we don't know.

I've not read anything on the "dining out" except for what a member on here mentioned.
 
As far as I'm concerned, I'm sticking to GBC as the main suspect. Too much evidence points to him whether it is local gossip or media related information based on police fact. I think that the idea of the BC's assisting in the disposal of the body is far more believable than a hired killer who killed ABC as she was some secret multi-lingual intelligence agent. He has the means, the motive and the opportunity. Nothing else really makes as much sense. The idea that TM was involved does not sit either. If she were so confrontational, why would she have quit century 21 as soon as the affair had been exposed. No she is not quite the homicidal queen Bee that fits the profile. This stinks of domesticity gone wrong. IMO.
 
grannie said:
Just a possibility.

Re: TM, just remember the case of the NASA astronaut, who tried to kill her rival. Her name was Lisa Nowak, if I remember correctly. She was charged with attempted murder.
Click to expand...

yep they reported that she wore adult diapers as worn by astronauts so that she didnt have to pull over for a leak while driving cross country to get her target....lol

"During a check of the parking lot, an officer followed Nowak and watched her throw away a bag containing the wig and a BB gun. They also found a steel mallet, a 4-inch folding knife, rubber tubing, rubber gloves, $600 in cash, love letters all in bags and in her car, the police said.

the things we do for love.....

:blowkiss:
 
grannie said:
Just a possibility.

Re: TM, just remember the case of the NASA astronaut, who tried to kill her rival. Her name was Lisa Nowak, if I remember correctly. She was charged with attempted murder.
Click to expand...


Oh yes, the nappy wearer!
Good point!
 
From previous thread itsthevibe posted....

[I don't know why, but i have always thought that Allison was thrown over the bridge, despite fairly logical explanations of how she could have been dumped further downstream and being swept down by the rain. I can't really explain it other than the position of the body. Also someone who lived very close to the Kholo bridge pointed out that you wouldn't throw a body 'over' the railings, you would put them 'through' the railings, which would be easier. Apparently the spaces between the railings/guard rail are very wide so the poster was saying you could fit a body through and it would be easier than trying to heave it over. Alternatively I think the body was placed there by the murderer, with assistance.]

When I first looked at the bridge photos & where Allison's body was underneath it...my first thoughts were that she'd been thrown over the side of the bridge. But those banks of the creek seem very steep & it seems quite a height from the top of the bridge. I think if her body was thrown from that height it would have rolled further down the bank & possibly into the creek...keeping in mind at that stage there hadn't been much rain for some time so the banks would have been quite dry & not muddy.

I remember one local saying how the creek becomes a raging torrent when there's a deluge of rain...like there was the weekend just prior to Allison's body being found. Plus he/they would be taking a huge risk of being seen stopped near or on the bridge if another car travelled past. Also..the cars were four wheel drives...easy to go off-road so they'd remain unseen.

So now I think her body was dumped further up stream somewhere near the scout grounds...which I think is where police seemed to be concentrating their searches after Allison's body was found.
 
I too have heard that it was premeditated and was planned for a months time , but due to opportunity they raced into it on that fateful evening . I cant fathom the sort of man who could dispose of the mother of his three young children so heartlessly , like a piece of rubbish.As someone said previously , even if she didn't want a divorce , he could have just walked out. Seriously , in this day and age , with such advances in criminology and forensics , what sort of person thinks they can get away with it and carry on "business as usual'. Maybe they thought a little suburban mum would be forgotten in a week or so, yesterdays fish and chip wrapper!!!
 
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