The garrote points to........

KariKae said:

For every horrible ACCIDENT scenario I come up with, I can't think of a reason not to call 911, even if Burke did it (especially if Burke did it).

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If she was already dead maybe they thought of protecting him.Not from a charge,he was too young,but protect his future,his reputation.We know he hit his sister in the face with a baseball bat before,who knows what other problems he had.His reactions right after her death are weird IMO,a 9 year old saying something like "well,I have to move on?"He was coached pretty well for all those interviews IMo and maybe THIS was the reason he was sent to a shrink,nothing to do with emotional distress.(I'ver seen nothing but lack OF)

Wow, just wow!!

Burke sure has been 'hidden' from public all these years.
IMO, I always thought it started with 2 tired kids eating pineapple,
goofing around, hit with the flashlight and parents went into a panic.
Thought she was dead or would never be right again and staged the whole
thing to protect Burke. JMOO

passionflower said:

Burke sure has been 'hidden' from public all these years.
IMO, I always thought it started with 2 tired kids eating pineapple,
goofing around, hit with the flashlight and parents went into a panic.
Thought she was dead or would never be right again and staged the whole
thing to protect Burke. JMOO

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Of course this is possible. But to stage an accidental death like that, with garrote, paintbrush penetration, all that was done to JB just to protect her 9-year old brother from, what...embarrassment? I just can't see it.
Now, if there was more involved- sexual molestation, something to hide that involved the brother(s) that might result in more serious consequences - then the staging is more likely.

DeeDee249 said:

Of course this is possible. But to stage an accidental death like that, with garrote, paintbrush penetration, all that was done to JB just to protect her 9-year old brother from, what...embarrassment? I just can't see it.
Now, if there was more involved- sexual molestation, something to hide that involved the brother(s) that might result in more serious consequences - then the staging is more likely.

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DeeDee, you know I respect your opinions here, but I still don't understand the parts about paintbrush penetration. The birefringent material mentioned in the autopsy has not been connected to the paintbrush has it (or have I forgotten)? What is the reference that shows the paintbrush being used as an instrument of penetration? Thanks!

passionflower said:

Burke sure has been 'hidden' from public all these years.
IMO, I always thought it started with 2 tired kids eating pineapple,
goofing around, hit with the flashlight and parents went into a panic.
Thought she was dead or would never be right again and staged the whole
thing to protect Burke. JMOO

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DeeDee249 said:

Of course this is possible. But to stage an accidental death like that, with garrote, paintbrush penetration, all that was done to JB just to protect her 9-year old brother from, what...embarrassment? I just can't see it.
Now, if there was more involved- sexual molestation, something to hide that involved the brother(s) that might result in more serious consequences - then the staging is more likely.

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I think the parents were upstairs in their bedroom, packing or whatever (remember Patsy still had the same clothes on next day - I don't think she ever took them off b/c she was up all night covering up the murder of her daughter by her son). Maybe JBR wet the bed, Patsy washed the sheets, and JBR went off to find BR. I doubt he was asleep. It was Christmas night and they were probably still excited about gifts, leaving the next morning, the party, etc. They go down to eat pineapple, then BR lures her into the basement. Not sure what order things started, but somehow he molested her, used the garrote, and bashed her head. None of them killed her immediately, but BR ran up to get his parents. The rest is history.

Not sure if that's what happened - I have all kinds of RDI theories in my head! I think one of them has to be somewhere near the truth.

BOESP said:

DeeDee, you know I respect your opinions here, but I still don't understand the parts about paintbrush penetration. The birefringent material mentioned in the autopsy has not been connected to the paintbrush has it (or have I forgotten)? What is the reference that shows the paintbrush being used as an instrument of penetration? Thanks!

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There is no reference that states outright that the paintbrush was used for penetration, and the birefringent material may or may not be associated with the cellulose ( wood paintbrush handle?) found in her vagina.
In addition to the birefringent material, or possibly in association with it, were fragments of what was described as cellulose, and this has been said to be wood fragments. However, coroner Mayer did not specifically put this in his report (the wood fragments). But there were things that Mayer said in the presence of others at the autopsy (Det. Arndt was one) that he did not actually write in his report, such as that he thought she was penetrated, but not by a penis, rather it looked like digital penetration.
Now, something caused her to bleed enough to warrant wiping down her thighs and pubic area. Some think this was caused by the paintbrush, and the bloodied piece is the one that is missing. This is made more plausible by the cellulose findings.
The birefringent (refractive) material MAY have been the shellac or varnish on the paintbrush handle, which was painted wood. Again, Mayer does not specify in his report exactly what this refractive material was, though it was certainly within his ability to do so. Did he actually test it? We don't know. If it was wood, was it ever matched to the paintbrush handle? We have never seen where that was the case. So there is still a lot unknown about exactly what the material was.
Some even believe the missing piece was found in her vagina. That would be something that would be known to those present only. I don't know whether an explosive thing like that could be suppressed for all these years, but I suppose it is possible.

BOESP said:

DeeDee, you know I respect your opinions here, but I still don't understand the parts about paintbrush penetration. The birefringent material mentioned in the autopsy has not been connected to the paintbrush has it (or have I forgotten)? What is the reference that shows the paintbrush being used as an instrument of penetration? Thanks!

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BOESP, at the risk of sticking my nose where it ain't wanted, PMPT mentions that there was a sliver of wood taken from JB's vagina that was the same composition of the paintbrush handle. Dr. David Jones stated that he believed it came from the same brush. Dr. John McCann stated that, from his examination, it was more likely a hard object rather than a finger that was inserted because the acute injury had clear edges.

Hope that helps.

It does help. It helped me, too, because I knew I had read that some LE and experts identified wood or wood shards as having been found in JB's vagina, but I didn't remember where.

Is this not AMAZING- that it wasn't put in the autopsy report?

The list of those responsible for the miscarriage and obstruction of justice in this case is astounding, including the very people charged with clearing the path to justice. I hope they are ashamed of themselves, but I doubt they are.
Yet we do not see any evidence of that handle being tested for the same foreign "skin cell DNA" that has IDIs all over jumping with glee. Match THAT to our "unidentified male" and I'll take a listen.

DeeDee249 said:

It does help. It helped me, too, because I knew I had read that some LE and experts identified wood or wood shards as having been found in JB's vagina, but I didn't remember where.

Is this not AMAZING- that it wasn't put in the autopsy report?

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Not really. Sophie explained it quite well, to my way of thinking.

The list of those responsible for the miscarriage and obstruction of justice in this case is astounding, including the very people charged with clearing the path to justice. I hope they are ashamed of themselves, but I doubt they are.
Yet we do not see any evidence of that handle being tested for the same foreign "skin cell DNA" that has IDIs all over jumping with glee. Match THAT to our "unidentified male" and I'll take a listen.

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You just hit on it, DeeDee: this was not a miscarriage of justice.

It was an abortion.

belimom said:

I think the parents were upstairs in their bedroom, packing or whatever (remember Patsy still had the same clothes on next day - I don't think she ever took them off b/c she was up all night covering up the murder of her daughter by her son). Maybe JBR wet the bed, Patsy washed the sheets, and JBR went off to find BR. I doubt he was asleep. It was Christmas night and they were probably still excited about gifts, leaving the next morning, the party, etc. They go down to eat pineapple, then BR lures her into the basement. Not sure what order things started, but somehow he molested her, used the garrote, and bashed her head. None of them killed her immediately, but BR ran up to get his parents. The rest is history.

Not sure if that's what happened - I have all kinds of RDI theories in my head! I think one of them has to be somewhere near the truth.

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Creatine (dried urine) was found on JB's sheets. It is possible she washed sheets that night, the blanket also. But JB had to have wet them again (the creatine), and so here we go with the bedwetting rage possibility. Since the bed was found to have been made up without the blanket (which at first Patsy seemed to dismiss but later conceded to LE that yes, the bed did look as if it had been made up without it). Patsy laundered those sheets and replaced them with the sheets seen in the crime photos. LHP corroborated this when she told LE that the sheets seen on JB's bed in the crime photos were not the ones she last put on the bed Dec. 23 (the last time she was there), so Patsy changed the sheets either Dec. 24, 25 or both. I have not seen where a set of JB's sheets were found in the washer or dryer anywhere. Only that the sheets on her bed had dried urine. This means to me, that there wasn't time to wait for the blanket to dry (or Patsy didn't want to take the time that night to go to the basement to get it, figuring LHP would make up the bed fresh when she came next (while the Rs were away).

I still don't get where the penetration with the paintbrush fits in the rage/bed wetting theory.I just can't imagine that someone would post-mortem assault a kid with her OWN paintbrush just to make it look like an intruder did it.This is way too sick.

IMO re the bed wetting/rage scenario maybe she wasn't (sexually or part of a staging)assaulted with the brush but maybe JB herself or someone else touched the brush and then her genital area (transfer)

IF someone in the family was playing some sort of weird sex games then it wasn't PR so why would she cover and write the rn note to protect something like this (if so then again I have to think that she did it all for B and not JR)

SuperDave said:

BOESP, at the risk of sticking my nose where it ain't wanted, PMPT mentions that there was a sliver of wood taken from JB's vagina that was the same composition of the paintbrush handle. Dr. David Jones stated that he believed it came from the same brush. Dr. John McCann stated that, from his examination, it was more likely a hard object rather than a finger that was inserted because the acute injury had clear edges.

Hope that helps.

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Yep but it still doesn't mean that the brush was used to assault her IMO,it's a possibility out of so many,like it happens with all the rest of the evidence in this case.:banghead:

Good points all. This case is maddening; something contradicts every scenario I can come up with. I still feel an intruder theory is impossible, so am speculating strictly within some kind of RDI boundaries.

BDI offers the best explanation of why Patsy penned the ransom note and both parents covered up. Possible motives include jealousy over JB's beauty pageants and the accompanying bulk of parental attention it accorded her. Also we have the unclear nature of Burke's possible learning disability, as well as the prior incident with the golf club, which may indicate a brewing rage towards his sister. Finally, Burke's reaction to his sister's death was really bizarre. It stood out, even amidst his parents' puzzling behavior.

JDI explains perhaps the incredible number of doctor visits for JonBenet, all seemingly concentrated around the genital area, as well as Cyril Wecht's early conclusion that the autopsy indicated chronic sexual abuse. Then there is the curious tibdit about the dictionary being left open and pointing to a definition of "incest." However, as has been noted many times before, how likely is it that Patsy would have helped cover up her husband's sexual abuse and murder of their daughter?

PDI has a lot going for it. Patsy's behavior was strangest of all; wearing the same clothes, peeking out between her fingers at the police, the strange, detached public statements about "that child," etc. And, of course, the ransom note, in my view, ties her into the crime in some way. I think it's the strongest piece of evidence in the case, and her personality is written all over it. However, the record also indicates she was a loving mother who was very involved in JonBenet's life. So again, contradictions....

The whole strangulation scene, garotte or not, is hard to fathom when the fractured skull is factored in. It's like two different versions of death; since JonBenet couldn't be murdered twice, at least one had to be staged. But I just can't imagine any parents staging either one. The only thing that could perhaps make sense is if her head was smashed against something as she was being strangled. But then, I can't picture any of the three in that house doing something like that. So....

It's back to square one, I guess. Since Patsy is gone, and John is unlikely to ever tell the truth, the only chance we ever have at finding out exactly what happened, imho, is if Burke ever decides to talk about it. That's almost as unlikely, though, and he may not even know everything.

Unreals said:

The only thing that could perhaps make sense is if her head was smashed against something as she was being strangled.

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That's exactly what I was thinking if BDI.
Because IMO if she would have been HIT with an object,her scalp would have been bruised/damaged as well.

Dunno,after my brain broke into pieces trying to figure this mess out,I thought maybe it's best to look at something simple.Maybe it's not that complicated at all.No misterious intruder with magical powers,no vicious molesting daddy,no horrible angry psycho mom.....but two kids playing,an accident,arrogant selfish parents who didn't wanna ruin their reputation and a pathetic (but hey it worked!) cover-up.


BDI is also the only scenario which in my mind explains the friends behaviour.(and lies)

And........Hunter's and Lacy's too....I know,not ethical,but cowardly....but would make sense why they were so........."understanding" ,maybe.........

I remember when my brother was around Burke's age, swinging whatever he could find as a bat. JonBenet could easily have been bashed in the head accidentially if she got too close. This would have been tragic.

But it doesn't explain why the parents did not call 911. If the head bash came first, surely she was still breathing and had a pulse?

madeleine said:

I still don't get where the penetration with the paintbrush fits in the rage/bed wetting theory.

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It doesn't. That's why I don't think PR is the one who did it.

I just can't imagine that someone would post-mortem assault a kid with her OWN paintbrush just to make it look like an intruder did it.This is way too sick.

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You'd be amazed at what people can do to their own kids. Actually, shocked might be a better word.

KariKae said:

I remember when my brother was around Burke's age, swinging whatever he could find as a bat. JonBenet could easily have been bashed in the head accidentially if she got too close. This would have been tragic.

But it doesn't explain why the parents did not call 911. If the head bash came first, surely she was still breathing and had a pulse?

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It might not be as simple as all that, KariKae. Shock plays a big part of it. An injury like that would very likely cause JB to go into shock. Her breathing and pulse would drop drastically, so much so that it was possible that a layperson, especially one in a highly emotional state, wouldn't find it even if they looked for it.

Just spitballing here.

DeeDee249 said:

Creatine (dried urine) was found on JB's sheets. It is possible she washed sheets that night, the blanket also. But JN had to have wet them again (the creatine), and so here we go with the bedwetting rage possibility. Since the bed was found to have been made up without the blanket (which at first Patsy seemed to dismiss but later conceded to LE that yes, the bed did look as if it had been made up without it). Patsy laundered those sheets and replaced them with the sheets seen in the crime photos. LHP corroborated this when she told LE that the sheets seen on JB's bed in the crime photos were not the ones she last put on the bed Dec. 23 (the last time she was there), so Patsy changed the sheets either Dec. 24, 25 or both. I have not seen where a set of JB's sheets were found in the washer or dryer anywhere. Only that the sheets on her bed had dried urine. This means to me, that there wasn't time to wait for the blanket to dry (or Patsy didn't want to take the time that night to go to the basement to get it, figuring LHP would make up the bed fresh when she came next (while the Rs were away).

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This could absolutely the case. My ODD had bed wetting issues. On her worst night she wet the bed 4 times. I ran out of clean sheets to put on her bed, then she wet the guest bed, then our our bed. We all slept the rest of the night on the floor.

Parents of bedwetters know you limit the child's in take of fluids starting around dinner time. If JB were at a party, there's a good chance she consumed a lot of liquid. And being very tired makes the problem worse too. Children who are bed wetters are often very deep sleepers and do not wake up to use the toilet. I could very easily see her wetting the bed 2x before Patsy had turned in for the night.