GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #2

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panthera said:
Interesting insight into the suspect.
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Two things of note: When they did the survey with the assassins (i.e. Chapman, Sirhan Sirhan) there was some major life catalyst before the shooting (as they indicated, JL being kicked out of school) and practicing with a weapon shortly before the incident was a strong indicator (as JL did)...I wonder how many cases we will have to keep saying "All the signs were there" about before we finally figure out a way to be proactive.
 
panthera said:
I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with him mentally, however, certain things he did leading up to the shooting show an ability to plan and in the legal sense of "insanity" know right from wrong. MOO
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Just because someone is off ballance does not mean he can not plan. Sadly MI comes in many ways.
 
nosysw said:
Two things of note: When they did the survey with the assassins (i.e. Chapman, Sirhan Sirhan) there was some major life catalyst before the shooting (as they indicated, JL being kicked out of school) and practicing with a weapon shortly before the incident was a strong indicator (as JL did)...I wonder how many cases we will have to keep saying "All the signs were there" about before we finally figure out a way to be proactive.
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So the next time someone has a major life catalyst and is seen practicing shooting a weapon, what exactly would we do? They are not breaking any laws by doing that. And if they don't want mental help, they cannot be forced just for those above reasons.
 
This is only a suspicion and nothing more but thought I'd put it out there. I am a local Tucsonan. I have a theory about Fuller who was arrested for making threats to the tea party member. He was supposedly the 20th person shot and was hit in the leg and a bullet grazed his back.

We saw him on local news the day after the shootings and he said he drove himself to the hospital. At the time I wondered how that would have been possible to even get out of the parking lot in that madhouse. And if you've been shot wouldn't you have some level of shock and not be calmly driving yourself to the hospital? There are two exits in that parking lot. Both you can not turn left. The hospital he drove himself to would have been a long way around but no doubt he did it, I can envision his route.

I have a feeling he shot himself. He is obviously an angry man, maybe looking for his 15 mins of fame?

Tonight on the news they showed police using night vision goggles to search the backyard of his house. What are they looking for? Of course they won’t say yet. And my apologies if I am incorrect, just a hunch because something is not right with this man.
 
Deborah1012 said:
This is only a suspicion and nothing more but thought I'd put it out there. I am a local Tucsonan. I have a theory about Fuller who was arrested for making threats to the tea party member. He was supposedly the 20th person shot and was hit in the leg and a bullet grazed his back.

We saw him on local news the day after the shootings and he said he drove himself to the hospital. At the time I wondered how that would have been possible to even get out of the parking lot in that madhouse. And if you've been shot wouldn't you have some level of shock and not be calmly driving yourself to the hospital? There are two exits in that parking lot. Both you can not turn left. The hospital he drove himself to would have been a long way around but no doubt he did it, I can envision his route.

I have a feeling he shot himself. He is obviously an angry man, maybe looking for his 15 mins of fame?

Tonight on the news they showed police using night vision goggles to search the backyard of his house. What are they looking for? Of course they won’t say yet. And my apologies if I am incorrect, just a hunch because something is not right with this man.
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I appreciate you trying to make sense of this but I am a good friend of Eric Fuller, we have worked together as campaign managers for various democratic candidates for the last decade and Eric is a battle tested Navy Vet who is probably one of the toughest and strong headed people I know, thats why he was able to drive himself to the hospital, I can assure you 100% that Eric Fuller did not shoot himself, he is very upset about Gabby being shot and had a slight mental breakdown from that but he has since level his head and today everything is fine and he is back to normal and working hard again to make this country a better place.

Again, Eric Fuller and I are both Tucson political operatives who have worked within the democratic party machine for a decade together and he is a very good man who has dedicated his life to making this country and the Tucson community a better place. He dedicated the last year of his life to do everything he could to get Gabby elected and yes he is quite upset and outraged that she was shot.


Eric Fuller is indeed angry, <modsnip>. I am not saying Loughner was influenced by any of that, it appears he was not, this was an act of a mentally ill deranged young man, but Fuller is indeed angry <modsnip>, <modsnip>.

The police were using night vision goggles to search Loughners house not Fullers, right? I wasnt sure what you meant the way you worded that.
 
nosysw said:
I'm confused about how doing these things shows he wasn't insane. One of the articles said going to the hotel was something he had done before which indicates to me maybe it was his way of trying to escape the reality of his home life. Other than that, I see that this was something he had planned, but I don't know see how that means he's not crazy. Being crazy, to me, does not imply an inability to plan things out. I don't know- maybe I'm missing something.
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I have tried the insanity defense several times for clients I have represented and it is not easy to prove. To be considered legally insane the defendant has the burden of PROVING that he didnt understand that what he did was WRONG.

Clearly JL is insane by societal standards, you would have to be to do what he did, but that doesnt make him criminally insane when it comes to a defense in a court of law. He knew what he was doing was wrong BECAUSE the night before the shootings he posted on his myspace "good bye friends PLEASE DONT BE MAD AT ME." This indicates that he knew what he was about to do was WRONG and ILLEGAL, which means he cannot be considered insane in a legal sense.

However there is a newish criminal defense that can be used instead of NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY, which is GUILTY BUT INSANE, meaning he is guilty of the crime as charged BUT INSANE, this would mean he is not 100% responsible for what he did, but he still understood that it was WRONG and ILLEGAL and such a verdict would put him in the hands of DOCTORS in a medical facility as opposed to prison or death row.


The difference is this, not guilty by reason of insanity would put him in a medical facility and he would have to be RELEASED as soon as the doctors found him to no longer be a danger to himself and others, in the case of GUILTY BUT INSANE, he would be sentenced to LIFE IN A MEDICAL FACILITY and even if he did improve and was no longer a threat to himself or others, the doctors would have no legal requirement to release him back in to society.
 
PAXIMUS said:
I appreciate you trying to make sense of this but I am a good friend of Eric Fuller, we have worked together as campaign managers for various democratic candidates for the last decade and Eric is a battle tested Navy Vet who is probably one of the toughest and strong headed people I know, thats why he was able to drive himself to the hospital, I can assure you 100% that Eric Fuller did not shoot himself, he is very upset about Gabby being shot and had a slight mental breakdown from that but he has since level his head and today everything is fine and he is back to normal and working hard again to make this country a better place.

Again, Eric Fuller and I are both Tucson political operatives who have worked within the democratic party machine for a decade together and he is a very good man who has dedicated his life to making this country and the Tucson community a better place. He dedicated the last year of his life to do everything he could to get Gabby elected and yes he is quite upset and outraged that she was shot.


<modsnip>

The police were using night vision goggles to search Loughners house not Fullers, right? I wasnt sure what you meant the way you worded that.
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NO, they were searching Fuller's house.
 
Deborah1012 said:
This is only a suspicion and nothing more but thought I'd put it out there. I am a local Tucsonan. I have a theory about Fuller who was arrested for making threats to the tea party member. He was supposedly the 20th person shot and was hit in the leg and a bullet grazed his back.

We saw him on local news the day after the shootings and he said he drove himself to the hospital. At the time I wondered how that would have been possible to even get out of the parking lot in that madhouse. And if you've been shot wouldn't you have some level of shock and not be calmly driving yourself to the hospital? There are two exits in that parking lot. Both you can not turn left. The hospital he drove himself to would have been a long way around but no doubt he did it, I can envision his route.

I have a feeling he shot himself. He is obviously an angry man, maybe looking for his 15 mins of fame?

Tonight on the news they showed police using night vision goggles to search the backyard of his house. What are they looking for? Of course they won&#8217;t say yet. And my apologies if I am incorrect, just a hunch because something is not right with this man.
Click to expand...
Today I saw video of police taking him away (was that right after he made the threat, I guess?), and he looked odd. Either something wrong with him mentally or something, seemed a little stumbly or confused looking. That's purely speculation on my part, but he didn't look right.
 
PAXIMUS said:
Hiii songy! I am local to all of this you know, terrible tragedy!
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HI Pax. :)

I have been reading you and gave you a nice HI a few pages ago. Or was it on the other thread? :)
I am sorry your friend got hurt, I am sorry this happened at all. :(
I am sorry people cannot even say BO did a great job, a great speech, a unifying tone, without them tearing it all apart within a few hours. I am sorry MI does not have other laws, to help them before they mess up so badly and harm others or themselves. (I have a bipolar daughter and I do not like the laws)
I am sad to say that I do not believe she will ever be whole.
And she was so special (darn it):banghead:
 
BuzzieCat said:
Today I saw video of police taking him away (was that right after he made the threat, I guess?), and he looked odd. Either something wrong with him mentally or something, seemed a little stumbly or confused looking. That's purely speculation on my part, but he didn't look right.
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Someone he cares deeply and dedicated the last year of his life to get elected was just shot in the HEAD. I think he has a right to look/act a little odd. He is very upset and outraged that Gabby was shot and he has suffered a bit of a mental break because of that in addition to exhaustion, he works himself in to the ground and doesnt rest like he should.

There is nothing mentally wrong with Mr Fuller, he has experienced something extremely tragic and was shot himself while experiencing it.
 
Cypros said:
Don't get me wrong. The guy is mentally unstable and some level of crazy, but that doesn't mean that he didn't know what he was doing nor that he didn't set things up to make it look like he is insane. There is something about the last minute loony video posts, the scrawled messages, chase through the desert, return for the bag with gun, cab ride, and the photo development drop-off that says premeditated and quite lucid.
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He is insane; he did not need to set it up.
However, sadly some MI have no compassion, some have no idea how to think things through and act only on impulse.
Some only know their own needs and have no clue that you even exist, unless you irritate them, it may be safe to say that some act as if they are void of feelings and only have water running through their veins (so to speak)
And the list is very long because they are all different.

He is going away...But where is the question. Some Hospital I hope. But when those hospitals get full they put them in jail. The jails are full of MI people.
 
songline said:
HI Pax. :)

I have been reading you and gave you a nice HI a few pages ago. Or was it on the other thread? :)
I am sorry your friend got hurt, I am sorry this happened at all. :(
I am sorry people cannot even say BO did a great job, a great speech, a unifying tone, without them tearing it all apart within a few hours. I am sorry MI does not have other laws, to help them before they mess up so badly and harm others or themselves. (I have a bipolar daughter and I do not like the laws)
I am sad to say that I do not believe she will ever be whole.
And she was so special (darn it):banghead:
Click to expand...

I agree, I am not what one would call a huge Obama fan but it was a very nice speech and it was insane to me that the media immediately began tearing it apart before it was even over.

The world has gone completely mad...
 
songline said:
He is insane; he did not need to set it up.
However, sadly some MI have no compassion, some have no idea how to think things through and act only on impulse.
Some only know their own needs and have no clue that you even exist, unless you irritate them, it may be safe to say that some act as if they are void of feelings and only have water running through their veins (so to speak)
And the list is very long because they are all different.

He is going away...But where is the question.ome Hospital I hope. But when those hospitals get full they put them in jail. The jails are full of MI people.
Click to expand...

I agree Loughner belongs in a mental facility and not a prison. MI is a medical issue not a criminal issue.
 
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