AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #22

prima.facie · May 30, 2012

johnQpublic said:
I beg to differ... LE doe's not get to pick and choose what is released due to the FOIA they have no choice but to release the entirety of thier reports however are permitted to redact only portions of the information which give out things they wish to use in court and peoples address information. .

I can tell you this.....filing an FOIA does not mean you get what you request!! And can tell you that there is a crap load of "stuff" that will never ever ever be released under an FOIA.

And TPD did NOT release all their "reports"...No way on Earth I will ever believe that those 500+ documents were all the docs for this case....no way no how!

ETA...FOIA is a ruse IMO.....it is to satisfy the public by releasing "some" things giving the illusion of being a transparent government....exactly as Madeleine74 said above. I know a crap load of people holding TS/SCI clearances working on classified stuff in various military and fed agencies....and I can promise the majority of stuff they "work" on will NEVER EVER EVER be released to the public no matter how many FOIAs you request!

And this goes for local and fed levels....

Not all records can be released under the FOIA. Congress established certain categories of information that are not required to be released in response to a FOIA request because release would be harmful to governmental or private interests. These categories are called "exemptions" from disclosures. Still, even if an exemption applies, agencies may use their discretion to release information when there is no foreseeable harm in doing so and disclosure is not otherwise prohibited by law. There are nine categories of exempt information and each is described below.

Exemption 6: Information that, if disclosed, would invade another individuals personal privacy.

Exemption 7: Information compiled for law enforcement purposes if one of the following harms would occur. Law enforcement information is exempt if it:
7(A). Could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings
7(B). Would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication
7(C). Could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy
7(D). Could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source
7(E). Would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions
7(F). Could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual

http://www.foia.gov/faq.html#exemptions <<< more excemptions at link...

CJMAJORGIRL24 · May 30, 2012

While i really respect all of the time and efford JohnQ has put into his sleuthing, i felt the need to respectfully disagree with a statement that he made.

Only speaking for myself here, but I feel that "Dad" either was involved or knows more than he is saying. (JMO)

Just because I feel that way (and there is plenty of evidence that leads me in that direction) doesn't mean that he is being "railroaded."

i am reserving judgement over your prime suspect.

As for the RSO that Dad offered up when LE arrived. I am 99 percent positive he is NOT involved here. (doesn't mean he is good person)

I just find it odd that good old Dad allowed Isabel to play down the street KNOWING that he lived there, but when she vanishes he is thrown to the wolves.

all respectfully jmo

CJMAJORGIRL24 · May 30, 2012

prima.facie said:
I can tell you this.....filing an FOIA does not mean you get what you request!! And can tell you that there is a crap load of "stuff" that will never ever ever be released under an FOIA.

And TPD did NOT release all their "reports"...No way on Earth I will ever believe that those 500+ documents were all the docs for this case....no way no how!

You are absolutely right!! We don't know 1/1000 of the things LE knows in this case.

liz b. · May 30, 2012

johnQpublic said:
I beg to differ... LE doe's not get to pick and choose what is released due to the FOIA they have no choice but to release the entirety of thier reports however are permitted to redact only portions of the information which give out things they wish to use in court and peoples address information. ( which really does not help because the addresses of those people can be located by using the parcel maps ) There were tooo many things found in the NMcD home that were to say the least incriminating. He was seen in two places where evidence was found, there was discovery in the alley behind chris' home and in the wash area where NMcD was seen coming from. Now, we can place him in both places, we have evidence found in both areas... There is enough there to justify searching his home, there more things are found. I think the only thing we are missing here is the victim... What did he do with her ? Did he take the evidence down to those areas to hide it ? Did he take Isa somewhere else and later hide his evidence ?

Another thing I found interesting looking at the Crime Maps and limiting the points to Kidnapping is there have been 4 kidnappings all within a 3 mile radius of the home. Then add in the Child Molestations and the core of those are around the house as well.

I must have missed this. Has LE actually said that they have found evidence outside of the Celis home ? TIA

time · May 30, 2012

Meh ... I think we research what we have!

No doubt, LE has far more than we know, but I kind of doubt they loaded the doc dump with McD stuff on purpose :crazy:

white rabbit · May 30, 2012

i am firmly on the family side of the 'perp fence' but am sleuthing jqp's poi anyway as i think it's warranted.

firstly, are we certain that it was NMc behind pike's house on the electric box?

secondly, his coming from the wash area is definitely suspicious...finding a twin bedset is disturbing for sure. but in the pdf's it's specifically stated that all the bedding was taken from the C's house including hers. i doubt the family would remake the bed and pass it off as that being what she slept in...

thirdly, all i've found is a really bad driving record. might explain his anxiety in facing LE and needing to get out of there lickety split. other than that, he may or may not be a kickboxing marathoner who works as a mechanic.

no MSM links, sorry. i'll see what else i can find. from what we know he certainly seems to be a viable poi no more/less than anyone else so far...

Prof · May 30, 2012

time said:
Don't know if this is the one you are looking for (electrical box 9-9:30 am)

It appears a resident, CL, on Essex St. said a man matching McD's description was sitting on it and he told him to leave.

Or are you looking for the 2 am thing?

Sorry I don't have the packet/page number

:waitasec:

Time, I have posted all of those reports, meaning I know what they say lol.
I am looking for what was stated specifcally as matching descriptions...that is not in the reports as far as I have seen, and I have all reports that mention NMC

They do not say that a man matching NMC's description was sitting on utility box at all. That is what I am saying, and asking where this matching description comment is coming from. I did not see that on the reports.

Here are the reports I posted on the last thread

BetteDavisEyes · May 30, 2012

time said:
It's associated with the address and phone number for them. She actually has a job with a Science center or something like that.

http://www.healthcare.com/profile/vals-tumble-bus/

(haven't rechecked that phone #)

Maybe the "Vals Tumble Bus" is part time or ? I think it is worth looking into.

The owner of the Tumblebus need not necessarily be the individual who drives the bus to its destinations. The owner of the "business" - because that's essentially what Tumblebus is - has invested in the traveling gym as a money-making venture. He/She probably has employees who drive the bus to its destination and supervise the youngsters who board the bus to play for an alotted period of time. :moo:

time · May 30, 2012

BetteDavisEyes said:
The owner of the Tumblebus need not necessarily be the individual who drives the bus to its destinations. The owner of the "business" - because that's essentially what Tumblebus is - has invested in the traveling gym as a money-making venture. He/She probably has employees who drive the bus to its destination and supervise the youngsters who board the bus to play for an alotted period of time. :moo:

Thank you. Maybe A is the owner, hence the listed address, but the bus may not ever be there.

Prof · May 30, 2012

johnQpublic said:
prof.. the officer discribes what NMcD is wearing and the same discriptors of the clothing are mentioned in the evidence findings in his home.

Where.. I am not finding that description matching the other witness...

I have seen the witness on Essex describe the man on the electrcial box a white shirt with "Car World" printed on the front. I saw the officer describe NMc coming out of the park with a "plain white tee shirt."

The only thing that seems to match is the white tee, but the officer said "plain white" and the other description of the guy in the alley 45 minutes earlier had a "car world" shirt on...

As far as descriptions, that is all I have seen
As far as what was taken from NMc home all I see is a white tee shirt.

Madeleine74 · May 30, 2012

LE is smarter than many give them credit for. Their job, outside of protecting the public and catching the bad guys, is to discover and preserve evidence that can go to a DA. That's it.

They are not legally obligated to disclose everything they know to the public. Building a case and making sure it's valid and solid for the DA is a major part of their job. They're not going to do things to dilute or ruin a case, if they can help it. They're not going to bow to pressure from people who want to play detective. IMO.

time · May 30, 2012

Prof said:
:waitasec:

Time, I have posted all of those reports, meaning I know what they say lol.
I am looking for what was stated specifcally as matching descriptions...that is not in the reports as far as I have seen, and I have all reports that mention NMC

They do not say that a man matching NMC's description was sitting on utility box at all. That is what I am saying, and asking where this matching description comment is coming from. I did not see that on the reports.

Here are the reports I posted on the last thread

Gotcha ... and, the excerpts you posted clearly say in the alleyway.

I don't know if there is anything else in the packets or someone was getting the info via tv, radio program. So, for now, we should go with the packets because I can't track down the source absolutely.

I'm thinking LE or some locals know for sure given the description of the man on the box and the tshirt lettering (seems to match NM's profession though, he recently moved to a different body shop, Buck's, but was closer to home before that, Micro)

Prof · May 30, 2012

white rabbit said:
i am firmly on the family side of the 'perp fence' but am sleuthing jqp's poi anyway as i think it's warranted.

firstly, are we certain that it was NMc behind pike's house on the electric box?

secondly, his coming from the wash area is definitely suspicious...finding a twin bedset is disturbing for sure. but in the pdf's it's specifically stated that all the bedding was taken from the C's house including hers. i doubt the family would remake the bed and pass it off as that being what she slept in...

thirdly, all i've found is a really bad driving record. might explain his anxiety in facing LE and needing to get out of there lickety split. other than that, he may or may not be a kickboxing marathoner who works as a mechanic.

no MSM links, sorry. i'll see what else i can find. from what we know he certainly seems to be a viable poi no more/less than anyone else so far...

1. I don't think we can be certain it was NMc. The same officer ran into this neighbor witness right after his run in with NMc, and he did not seem to make the correlation that I could see. He had said PLAIN white shirt, and the witness had stated "Car World"
2. not following lol sorry
3. The bad driving records added up as suspect in regards to RC and SC for some, why not for NMc? (Rhetorical question) BTW did you look in other states that he's associated with? IMO he's not the kickboxer, as that guy looked much younger.

Everyone is a viable POI in this case...IMO

Prof · May 30, 2012

time said:
Gotcha ... and, the excerpts you posted clearly say in the alleyway.

I don't know if there is anything else in the packets or someone was getting the info via tv, radio program. So, for now, we should go with the packets because I can't track down the source absolutely.

I'm thinking LE or some locals know for sure given the description of the man on the box and the tshirt lettering (seems to match NM's profession though, he recently moved to a different body shop, Buck's, but was closer to home before that, Micro)

Well, if it was NMc on the box in the alley a half hour to forty five minutes before officer came across the VW in the park, then I see him as strongly suspect. Could he have changed his shirt?

Here's a scenario... he took Isa to that empty house on Essex, the one in the reports with a pool almost empty, with a part that looked recently disturbed?
As soon as he saw police activity he drove back to the house on Essex to get rid of some evidence. The neighbor catches him just after he comes over the fence with evidence bagged by LE in the alleyway. He had sat down on the box for a second. He changed his Car World shirt into the plain white shirt before the officer ran into him in the park, where he had been checking on other evidence.
IDK just trying to make it fit...

LisaB · May 30, 2012

Prof said:
I have posted those reports, but I am not aware of any statement where witness description matched the descripton of the neighbor. I saw he gave a description, but how do we know that witness descripton matches NMc's description in the reports?

Where do we see description of Celis' neighbor NMC?

Un-linkable sources?

johnQpublic · May 30, 2012

Car world was printed on THE BACK of the shirt, its possible the officer did not see the logo on the rear of the shirt when he spoke to him.

oceanblueeyes · May 30, 2012

I read all opinions/theories and find them extremely interesting. It is great to think outside of the box especially since we have no named suspect or POI in this case.

While my opinion still remains the same that the parents arent involved in Isa's kidnapping nor I have seen any evidence supporting that either one are ...I am more than willing to read and consider all possibilities.

I do know LE has to have probable cause to get a SW on someone else's home so I find that part very interesting and would like to know the reasons given to the Judge in order to obtain the warrant.

IMO

johnQpublic · May 30, 2012

Prof said:
Well, if it was NMc on the box in the alley a half hour to forty five minutes before officer came across the VW in the park, then I see him as strongly suspect. Could he have changed his shirt?

Here's a scenario... he took Isa to that empty house on Essex, the one in the reports with a pool almost empty, with a part that looked recently disturbed?
As soon as he saw police activity he drove back to the house on Essex to get rid of some evidence. The neighbor catches him just after he comes over the fence with evidence bagged by LE in the alleyway. He had sat down on the box for a second. He changed his Car World shirt into the plain white shirt before the officer ran into him in the park, where he had been checking on other evidence.
IDK just trying to make it fit...

Not to mention he made a call from a dead cell phone on 13th ( speculation ) There is a whole lot more to NMcD than what I said in my long statement. I do know this though... If this happened in the 60's I strongly feel LE would have NMcD in jail just based off what we see here in the reports BUT since now days they have so many hoops to jump thru to solidify the case against someone there is much much more work to do.

GutFeeling! · May 30, 2012

johnQpublic said:
Car world was printed on THE BACK of the shirt, its possible the officer did not see the logo on the rear of the shirt when he spoke to him.

Is there a link to where it says printed on the back? cause I can't see it anywhere - TIA

Zoe Zo · May 30, 2012

Sorry, I missed this - who is NMcD??

AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #22

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