Canada - Tim McLean, 22, decapitated on bus, Winnipeg, 30 July 2008 *Insanity*

Columbo said:

Conditional release, you have to be kidding!!! He beheads a fellow passenger on a bus and he's good to go?
Is it just me, or does anyone else think the legal system is as crazy as all the crazies they administer "justice" to?
I'm sick of this....

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The legal system is crazy because there are laws that block family members (i.e., his ex wife who knew he was going crazy) from admitting schizophrenics and other violent (towards themselves or others) delusional people to the kind of psychiatric care they need. If the patient doesn't want to be held, then they can leave, unless they have attempted suicide or another violent act. Unfortunately, I don't feel that schizophrenics are in a state of mind to make decisions based on their health, as most deny they are sick.

The worst part? 2/3 or schizophrenics can be successful treated for positive symptoms (delusions, hallucinations). Those drugs tend to be even more successful when they are administered when they first begin experiencing schizophrenic episodes.

As a psych major, who is particularly interested in schizophrenia, I'm glad this man is getting help. He shouldn't be let into the public for a long time, but prison is also not a place for schizophrenics.

Does mental illness justify murder? Not exactly, but we have to understand that these people aren't in control of their thoughts, as we are. Their delusions are often paranoid and violent in nature, sometimes causing them to think that someone is out to get them. For us, it sounds ridiculous, but to them, it's reality.

To clarify, I do think that this man deserves to be punished, but in a setting where he will not be taken advantage of, and where he can receive treatment. Additionally I hope that people will educate themselves, especially if they have a schizophrenic family member, on what they are going through, and their thought processes.

And don't take this personally Columbo, it's not really a rant directed toward you, just some things I felt needed to be said. :blowkiss:

I have no problem with this man being confined to a mental help facility rather than being put in prison. The part that has me amazed is the conditional release? Just what conditions could justify releasing this person back into the public?

Paintr said:

I have no problem with this man being confined to a mental help facility rather than being put in prison. The part that has me amazed is the conditional release? Just what conditions could justify releasing this person back into the public?

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I hear you. Maybe they would put him in some sort of outpatient treatment facility. I would think that that would only be done if he's been taking meds voluntarily but it worries me because schizophrenics often go off their meds. And once they're off they need some sort of intervention or hospitalization before they go back on.

I agree, though. He shouldn't be released into the public. One year of good behavior and medication doesn't prove to me that he's stable.

I'd be calling my elected officials if I even THOUGHT this man was being released! GIVE ME A BREAK! No way!

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/05/28/mb-greyhound-li-information-manitoba.html

Decision about Vince Li might be made public: review board chair

http://www.canada.com/Public+will+learn+fate+attacker/1642478/story.html

passenger on a Greyhound bus last year will likely be made public after all.

Despite some initial concerns that the media would not be allowed to report on whether Vince Li will be confined to a mental hospital or released into the community, Manitoba's Criminal Code Review Board is now reviewing legal opinions and expects to find a way to balance public interest in the case with Li's right to privacy as a mental health patient, board chairman John Stefaniuk said Thursday.

I recall this case from when it happened. It was horrifying.

I get it that the murderer is legally insane, but that honestly doesn't make me feel any better.

I do pray they do the right thing and confine him to a mental hospital until he admits he has a problem and they don't have to worry about him taking his medicine or not.

At least I don't have to worry about him living next door to me, seeing as how he lives in Canada. IMHO, those making the decision on this man's fate need to keep in mind, he COULD end up living close to them.

JMHO
fran

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1125261.html

The driver who witnessed a schizophrenic behead a fellow Greyhound bus passenger last summer has been gripped with panic attacks, while those who mourn the victim say they can’t sleep and have developed a deep sense that justice hasn’t been done, a review board heard Monday.

In a victim impact statement read before Manitoba’s Criminal Code review board, the bus driver who witnessed Vince Li’s brutal murder of Tim McLean said he replays the scene over in his head between "five and 50" times a day.

Greyhound bus killer may be allowed off hospital grounds within a year: Doctor


http://www.torontosun.com/2011/05/3...wed-off-hospital-grounds-within-a-year-doctor

May 30, 2011

WINNIPEG - Greyhound bus killer Vincent Li could be fit enough for escorted passes off the grounds of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre in less than a year, a doctor said Monday.

Li, 42, has responded well to medication and does not pose a management problem for staff, treating psychiatrist Dr. Steven Kremer told a Criminal Code Review Board hearing.

Li has been lodged at the mental health centre since March 2009, when he was found not criminally responsible for the stabbing and dismemberment of 22-year-old bus passenger Tim McLean.

I wonder if this doctor will invite him into his home for meals with his
wife and kids.

from the linked article:

Li's lawyer Alan Libman urged the board to agree to the treatment team's recommendations, saying it would "encourage his reintegration into society."

"I'm asking that (Li) be treated no differently than anyone else who comes before the board," Libman said.

Here's a May 15, 2012 update, titled "Give bus beheader Vince Li escorted trips into community, doctors urge"

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Give+beheader+Vince+escorted+trips+into+community+doctors+urge/6618690/story.html

I think many of us will remember this Canadian case as, once heard about, it's impossible to forget.

Cannibal allowed to leave mental hospital for a stroll, just four years after he beheaded and ate sleeping bus passenger (Daily Mail)

A man who beheaded and cannibalized a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Canada four years ago won his bid to leave the grounds of the mental hospital where he has been kept, a criminal review board ruled on Thursday.

The Criminal Code review board said Vince Li's treatment team may grant him short escorted trips into Selkirk, Manitoba. The review board said the passes will start at 30 minutes and increase incrementally to a maximum of full days.
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At Li’s trial in March of 2009, a judge was told that he was an untreated schizophrenic who was suffering from auditory hallucinations commanding him to kill [carnival worker Tim ] McLean, a stranger.

On Thursday, the board said the passes should only be granted if Li's treatment team believes his condition is stable and that it would be ‘appropriate and safe for him to leave the locked ward.’

He will have to be escorted at all times by a nurse and a peace officer who will be wearing street clothes to avoid drawing attention to LI.
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much more, with pictures, at Daily Mail link above

This guy has crossed a barrier, I am a mental health nurse and I am sorry, IMO he should be treated with compassion but never be free

wow, good thing not drawing attention to him is apparently among the biggest priorities...

That "person" should not see the light of day except through bars ever again.

badhorsie said:

This guy has crossed a barrier, I am a mental health nurse and I am sorry, IMO he should be treated with compassion but never be free

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The above is so well put, IMO. I too have no interest in punishing someone who acted out of mental illness. That doesn't mean I trust the psychiatric profession to know with any certainty whether the patient is sufficiently medicated to no longer be a threat.

Once someone has shown themselves to be dangerous enough, that they could decapitate a stranger and begin eating him, for no reason, ---Sorry, but they should not be walking around free anymore.

Sounds like Washington ... They used to take the criminally insane to carnivals and all kinds of cute outings up until a couple of years ago and they lost one. He escaped and thank God and all the police that caught him 3 days later.

I would like to see these 'treatments teams' (those suggesting and authorizing escorted passes for now) held criminally responsible if their 'ideas' don't pan out in the short or long term and he, or others with similar illnesses kill again. To be able to sue them in civil court would make the treatment teams look harder at their own actions. It's not a system failure if he fails to take his meds in the future when not escorted.

i was horrified when this happened... and i feel these escorted visits off premises are a slap in the face to mclean and his family ::shakes head::

I live about 40 minutes from where he is held. While I don't think mentally ill people should be institutionalized as they were in decades past, I don't agree with the not criminally responsible (NCR) designation. I think it is fine for him to take walks around the Selkirk mental hospital, but i don't think he should be allowed out into the community, even with a guard, nor do I think he should ever be set free. Unfortunately it looks like the last two will probably happen at some point.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/some-freedom-for-model-patient-li-152001055.html
" He has been diagnosed as having a 0.8 per cent chance of violently reoffending in the next decade." Really? since when can psychiatrists pinpoint this with such accuracy. perhaps they should get jobs as Vegas oddsmakers.

Of course he is doing fine now: he is in a secure facility and has to take his medication. Once he is deemed cured, he will be released. Who will ensure he takes his medication, then? I think it is great that, as stated in the above article, he has improved his English and has taken occupational training. Nevertheless, I agree with the mother of Tim McLean (the victim) that NCR designated people should be kept in hospital facilities indefinitely.