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WHITEFANG said:
DeeDee249, you have added more ideas that you believe prove Patsy did not see Joni's hands when she dropped down on her body (as the police report says.) Nothing you offer proves that or comes anywhere close to being able to draw that conclusion. Don't you understand that?
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Of course I do. But the way the scene in that living room has been described to me (in several books as well as reading Det. Arndt's testimony) and in viewing the autopsy photos, her hands would not have been visible.
It is a conclusion that I am drawing based on what I have read and seen. I don't expect to be able to prove it to anyone- how could I? To prove it, there would have to be a photo of Patsy on the body and that doesn't exist as far as we know.
To ME, it is the only conclusion I can draw. When I state my ideas, I TRY not to use the word "prove" because, really, I can't prove it.
I certainly believe the police report that Patsy threw herself on her daughter's body. But as you said, I BELIEVE (not KNOW, not CAN PROVE) that if JB's body was covered the way it has been described, and her hands were the way they appear in the autopsy photo where she is still on the rug, then her hands would not have been visible to anyone, not just to Patsy.
I am not the only one who feels this way and I can't change the way I feel.
My apologies - though I have posted what I read about the fiber evidence and Dr. Lee's comments about it, I did not specifically post it to you, so you may have missed it. And I sometimes forget that newer posters may not have read all the threads on this forum and so are unaware of the extent that some things have been discussed previously.
Let's be honest here- many of us posting here have probably more than one theory of how this night unfolded. We each draw our own conclusions (I can't in all honesty say I have just one conclusion). We have to agree to disagree.
 
From 20 feet away I raise my hand in front of your face with my palm facing you. I ask, what do you see and obviously you reply, your hand. Behind me 20 back is Super and I ask him the same question and he responds with the same answer, your hand. Darn sure that is my hand. All agree. No funny business or smoke and mirrors. Okay? Okay.

I ask you to tell me if any of my fingernails have been smashed and are black and blue. You are absolutely positive I have no fingernails and obviously none is black and blue. Soright? Soright.

I ask Super the same question and he says all look normal except the one on your ring finger. That baby is black, blue and green and about to fall off. Looks painful, how did you do that?

Houston, we have a problem. Who is telling the truth? Both, neither, what is truth? Guilty?



Off the subject. Never a Sharon Stone fan, but by golly she has gotten even prettier as time passes. Holy cow! She looks wonderful on Law and Order as an ex-cop become lawyer. Oh baby. Hubba Hubba
 
My "I loved Alice Kramden" was a response to your "you're a riot, Alice" That was what Ralph Kramden said to her nearly every show. Younger posters won't know that- and I figured you did since you used that phrase. I agree about Sharon Stone. She looks great.

About your fingernails- I believe your post has ME looking at your palms and SD looking at the back of your hand. So he would be able to see your fingernails and I would not. Therefore, you assume I would believe you did not have fingernails. Yet, had this been an actual event, I would think you probably did have fingernails, since most people do, and so would not make the statement that I was sure you did not have them. I'd answer your query about whether they were bruised by asking you to turn your hands around.
Your post is based on me thinking you had no fingernails, yet that is illogical. What reason might I have to believe you did not have them when it is a fact that most people do? Just because I didn't see them is not enough to make me think you did not have them. But I have a feeling there is a point you are trying to make.
 
You want to go places? To the moon, Alice!

A simple illustration for the purpose of presenting two sides of the same picture or subject. Not meant to overdue it, but just to point out how we can see the same thing and yet observe different things. And, in this case, having knowledge of the object under examination, an assumption is made. An accurate assumption in this case. Fingernails are common on a human hand. Also, this knowledge by itself could not shed light on damaged fingernails. Yet, both participants saw a human hand, without a doubt.

Just a little fun, folks.
 
"What's more, the garrote used to strangle JonBenet, made of rope and the broken end of one of Patsy Ramsey's paintbrushes, was an elaborate instrument of death—an unlikely tool for the Ramseys to have fashioned in the panicked minutes after allegedly striking her. Smit discovered a wood splinter, apparently from the brush handle, on the carpet just outside the room where she was found. Police found fibers from the same carpet on a baseball bat in the bushes outside the house, leading Smit to believe the killer used it to bludgeon JonBenet. DNA found under JonBenet's fingernails and in her underpants was male, but did not match John Ramsey's."



"The Boulder police were skeptical of Smit's stun-gun theory, and showed some of the autopsy pictures to Arapahoe County coroner Dr. Michael Doberson, who had researched stun-gun wounds. Doberson said he didn't think the marks were from a stun gun. But recently, NEWSWEEK asked Doberson to review Smit's stun-gun evidence.


Doberson says the police never showed him Smit's pictures comparing the size and orientation of the marks with the electrical contacts on the Air Taser.


He now calls Smit's stun-gun theory 'compelling.'"
 
Dr. Cyril Wecht M.D. staunch advocate that the Ramsey's murdered their daughter said, "If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."

The strangulation occurred before the head was smashed in according to prominent forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht.
 
In an interview with KUSA-TV, JonBenet's pediatrician, Francesco Beuf, said he never saw any indication that the child had ever experienced sexual abuse.
"I can tell you as far as her medical history is concerned there was never any hint whatsoever of sexual abuse," he said. "I didn't see any hint of emotional abuse or physical abuse. She was a very much loved child, just as her brother."
Beuf said that as a pediatrician he sees all sorts of children and he can normally tell whether a child is happy.
Beuf described JonBenet as "just a wonderful, happy kid who had the strength to deal with some very tough situations with regard to her mother's illness."
 
WHITEFANG said:
"What's more, the garrote used to strangle JonBenet, made of rope and the broken end of one of Patsy Ramsey's paintbrushes, was an elaborate instrument of death—an unlikely tool for the Ramseys to have fashioned in the panicked minutes after allegedly striking her. Smit discovered a wood splinter, apparently from the brush handle, on the carpet just outside the room where she was found. Police found fibers from the same carpet on a baseball bat in the bushes outside the house, leading Smit to believe the killer used it to bludgeon JonBenet. DNA found under JonBenet's fingernails and in her underpants was male, but did not match John Ramsey's."



"The Boulder police were skeptical of Smit's stun-gun theory, and showed some of the autopsy pictures to Arapahoe County coroner Dr. Michael Doberson, who had researched stun-gun wounds. Doberson said he didn't think the marks were from a stun gun. But recently, NEWSWEEK asked Doberson to review Smit's stun-gun evidence.


Doberson says the police never showed him Smit's pictures comparing the size and orientation of the marks with the electrical contacts on the Air Taser.


He now calls Smit's stun-gun theory 'compelling.'"
Click to expand...

Too bad about the credibility issues.
 
WHITEFANG said:
In an interview with KUSA-TV, JonBenet's pediatrician, Francesco Beuf, said he never saw any indication that the child had ever experienced sexual abuse. "I can tell you as far as her medical history is concerned there was never any hint whatsoever of sexual abuse," he said. "I didn't see any hint of emotional abuse or physical abuse. She was a very much loved child, just as her brother."
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I'd say DD and I addressed that one quite well already. (After all, Fang; you did ask.)

Beuf said that as a pediatrician he sees all sorts of children and he can normally tell whether a child is happy. Beuf described JonBenet as "just a wonderful, happy kid who had the strength to deal with some very tough situations with regard to her mother's illness."
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Wonderful. Nice to know he's a freakin' mind-reader. Maybe he's never heard of Child Abuse Accomodation Syndrome. Something like 90% of abused kids show no outward signs at all.

As I wrote on another thread, people think it's so easy. But literally every single thing has to go 100% right in order for an abuser to be caught.
 
SuperDave said:
I'd say DD and I addressed that one quite well already. (After all, Fang; you did ask.)



Wonderful. Nice to know he's a freakin' mind-reader. Maybe he's never heard of Child Abuse Accomodation Syndrome. Something like 90% of abused kids show no outward signs at all.

As I wrote on another thread, people think it's so easy. But literally every single thing has to go 100% right in order for an abuser to be caught.
Click to expand...


Their credibility and opinions are as good as most.
 
WHITEFANG said:
Dr. Cyril Wecht M.D. staunch advocate that the Ramsey's murdered their daughter said, "If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."

The strangulation occurred before the head was smashed in according to prominent forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht.
Click to expand...


JonBenet was strangled to death and then struck with a violent blow to her head which fractured her skull about 8 inches in length and created a large commuted fracture, as well, according to Dr. Wecht. Theories that she was the victim of an accidental blow to her head first, rest moot before the expertise and experience of this forensic pathologist. Whoever the perpetrator of this vicious act, he spared the massive blow until she was already gone. Neither the Ramsey's nor anyone else would have reason to be concerned with camouflaging the true cause of death.

Built upon this foundation, new, pertinent theories may one day help investigators to identity the killer of JonBenet
 
WHITEFANG said:
JonBenet was strangled to death and then struck with a violent blow to her head which fractured her skull about 8 inches in length and created a large commuted fracture, as well, according to Dr. Wecht. Theories that she was the victim of an accidental blow to her head first, rest moot before the expertise and experience of this forensic pathologist. Whoever the perpetrator of this vicious act, he spared the massive blow until she was already gone. Neither the Ramsey's nor anyone else would have reason to be concerned with camouflaging the true cause of death.

Built upon this foundation, new, pertinent theories may one day help investigators to identity the killer of JonBenet
Click to expand...

I think WF that this is the only reason that sits well with me so far as to why no external bruising, bleeding or swelling. The strangle and bash happened at or about the same time. Yep, happy with that theory.
 
MurriFlower said:
I think WF that this is the only reason that sits well with me so far as to why no external bruising, bleeding or swelling. The strangle and bash happened at or about the same time. Yep, happy with that theory.
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Cool.

Like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, isn't it? Then, when we're given the piece that fits, there's that sense that, "this is what I've needed." Don't have to strain and twist and jam it. Poof, like that, it makes sense.
 
MurriFlower said:
I think WF that this is the only reason that sits well with me so far as to why no external bruising, bleeding or swelling. The strangle and bash happened at or about the same time. Yep, happy with that theory.
Click to expand...

Me, too.
 
WHITEFANG said:
JonBenet was strangled to death and then struck with a violent blow to her head which fractured her skull about 8 inches in length and created a large commuted fracture, as well, according to Dr. Wecht.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't mention that name around HOTYH if I were you! Go ahead and see what I mean. I notice you're not too quick to examine Wecht's OTHER statements, hint hint.

Theories that she was the victim of an accidental blow to her head first, rest moot before the expertise and experience of this forensic pathologist.
Click to expand...

The deuce, you say. Look, I have tremendous respect for Dr. Wecht, and I believe he made some good points in this case, but he made that statement before the full autopsy report was released. And as for resting moot, I'll see your Cyril Wecht and raise you a Henry Lee, Werner Spitz, Tom Henry and Ronald Wright.
 
WHITEFANG: Please, Super. You have the power to stop what you're doing.
Click to expand...


Super, would you remove this quote, at least as a statement I made, since I never made it? Thanks WF
 
John Douglas FBI profiler
Douglas: And here is a young child, such force cracking her skull. This is not a crime of parents. Parents certainly kill. But not these kinds of parents.

Indeed, Douglas says, even when parents commit murder, it’s not usually as horrific as the scene at the Ramsey’s.

The Ramseys described to Douglas the horrific details of what they said happened in those next few frantic moments.

Douglas: It was a real emotional scene for the family, putting the child in front of the Christmas tree as they’re trying to rub the skin, the body is cold, the mother’s hysterical, the father’s hysterical, the minister is there, neighbors running in and out, so there really isn’t a crime scene...

The desperate rescue attempt, which completely contaminated any evidence at the scene, painted a picture of a family in agony, Douglas said, and he told Dateline this week that he couldn’t believe the Ramseys he encountered in his interview were capable of such brutality.

Douglas: When parents kill, there’s generally a softening of the crime scene. Where they take a blanket, cover up the child, roll the child over, face down or something like that. The child was found, JonBenet was face up. Her hands were tied together. Her head was off to the side. She had a piece of duct tape over her mouth.

And now, looking back nine and half years later, Douglas can’t shake the conclusions he first made about the case:

Douglas: I came to a very quick resolution that they’re barking up the wrong tree. This investigation is going in the wrong direction here.
Edit/Delete Message
 
Didn't Douglas later recant these statements and come to the conclusion that the parents were involved in the crime?
 
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