The Zahra Project

believe09 said:

I thank you Allusonz and applaud your desire to change this.

I often wonder if the violence is more prevalent or if the reporting of it has changed. There is nothing more heartrending than the torture, abuse, murder of a child. It get's everyone on a primary level-nature and nurture would dictate us protecting and raising our children until they can stand on their own.

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wish i could take credit here but alas i have nothing to do with this and only noted it when i saw westsides post

will have to find out more about it

maybe to it is just boiling down to the fact that so many are growing up in a world that is full of violence as i think of the middle east that we have lost alot of the family values

again i dont know and wish i did!!!!

NC Analyzer said:

Excellent post and very accurate! Thank you! I would have to say that in addition to Domestic Violence, one of the biggest problems we have is drug use...and those folks know how to beat the testing. Our area in particular has a big problem with prescription drug abuse and if we test for use, all they have to do is produce the prescription at the time of the test and that drug is ruled out. We don't have the funding to test for the levels of drugs in their system and many of them shop doctors and go to various ER depts and walk-in clinics to obtain multiple prescriptions. Most of the headline child abuse cases involve drug use. We need testing that permits us to determine how much/how many drugs these parents are injesting!

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I think that the drug testing thing is a weakness that can be overcome. That seems straight forward-I wonder if HIPPA would make some of this difficult? Here is a thought-LE can get around HIPPA with a subpoena...wonder if there is some value to having case workers have limited subpoena power. Would having access to medical, dental, psychiatric records be of value I wonder?

This might gum up the works some, but if they are not needed for every case, maybe there is some guidelines for when to request them.

How are they getting the scripts for the meds, NC? Stolen prescription pads, DR's on that take? Are they frequent flyers in the ER so that they are constantly seen by residents and PA's who dont have the time to comb their records??

NC Analyzer said:

Thank you for the kind words, but unfortunately my time is extremely limited as far as starting any type of grass roots movement to change policy. I spend my days working to keep children safe in real time...and I do my very best to insure every child has the best protection the law permits.
I could and would be willing to volunteer my time as a consultant to what works and what doesn't work as the system currently operates in NC. I did offer just that to the Zahra Project and put a lot of time and effort into pointing out some of the problems with the current proposals and why; however, they were very rude and argumentative with my efforts and I simply do not have time for that type of behavior. Many of their members as well as their founder and her "appointee's" have a personal agenda. Confidentiality prohibits me from providing specific details. I also found they are willing to take advice only as it suits them, (ie, personal agenda) and although they claim to have spoken to the "experts", I found most of the information they claim to have been told is patently false. I did provide them with the current policy and laws that govern NC Child Protective Services but it doesn't appear they took the time to become well versed.

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Welcome!!!

how sad that when you do try people dont listen for various other agendas

the drug issue is an interesting angle.....

Allusonz said:

maybe to it is just boiling down to the fact that so many are growing up in a world that is full of violence as i think of the middle east that we have lost alot of the family values

again i dont know and wish i did!!!!

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BBM-can you expound on this? I cannot follow...not enough coffee maybe.

I get your point which is certainly valid-I personally think it is depictions/sensationalizing violence that alters perceptions regarding how we should treat one another. And FWIW, the belief that we can medicate ourselves into happieness, or that the Disney depicted world of "Happily Ever After" is actually attainable.

But I have strayed from the topic, lol.

westsidefox64 said:

WELCOME TO WS!!!

I agree the bill is not perfect but with some tweaking it could be a very good thing. Do I think it will solve all of the problems no I dont.

I dont see the rule of having to inform of address changes as being a bad thing. I d say its better to err on the side of safety for our children.

As for the 18 month to abandon a child to a safe place. If it means that child is safe as opposed to abused I see that being a good thing. weather the child has bonded shouldnt matter in an abusive situation.

I personally agree with believe on the matter of more case workers and smaller case loads would help. JMO

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Again, I have to ask. What do you think the purpose would be for the change of address? Many of these clients are poor and I've seen them move 3x or more during an investigation. They move all the time due to not having enough money to pay the rent! During the investigative process we, (the investigators), are able to keep track of them because when we open an investigation we get the names of everyone that family knows. They don't have enough resources to go very far and we can find them within hours if they don't call us to tell us their whereabouts. Part of the investigative process is to explain to the family that we have to be able to reach them at all times...they know this and most comply because they know we may remove their child if they don't. After an investigation is closed, we are not allowed to contact them again unless a new investigation is opened. When an investigation is opened, the reporter knows who and what they saw and where it happened...THEY tell us. If they don't know the exact address, we have the resources to locate the home. We have access to utilities, driver's licenses, postal records, etc. We are able to find families...that is the least problematic situation we have. Changes of address mean nothing and what would be the penalty if they didn't change the address? I can assure you this is not significant to the safety of the children.

Bonding is not the issue for surrendering a child. Parental rights are. A child cannot be legally adopted unless the parents have agreed to terminate their parental rights. If parents want to give a child up, we are more than happy to place the child in a safe environment during the termination process. This is not a safety problem...it is a parental rights problem and would result in children floating in the Foster Care system that could not be adopted and placed in a permanent home. The parents would also be subject to criminal penalties if they dropped off their children, so this whole proposal would result in multiple changes in statutes that the Zahra Project hasn't considered.

believe09 said:

I think that the drug testing thing is a weakness that can be overcome. That seems straight forward-I wonder if HIPPA would make some of this difficult? Here is a thought-LE can get around HIPPA with a subpoena...wonder if there is some value to having case workers have limited subpoena power. Would having access to medical, dental, psychiatric records be of value I wonder?

This might gum up the works some, but if they are not needed for every case, maybe there is some guidelines for when to request them.

How are they getting the scripts for the meds, NC? Stolen prescription pads, DR's on that take? Are they frequent flyers in the ER so that they are constantly seen by residents and PA's who dont have the time to comb their records??

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I don't believe HIPPA has much to do with this problem. We already have laws in place that provide us the ability to access medical, dental and psychiatric records during a child abuse investigation. We have access to nearly every record the parents and/or the children have and we don't need a subpoena to produce them. Its the funding regarding the kind of testing the state can afford. We do a 10-panel drug screen but it isn't checked for the levels of drugs injested. If a client has a script for Oxycodone, I can't tell if they have taken 10 pills a day or the 2 pills a day as prescribed. Clients doctor shop and go to ER and clinics to obtain multiple prescriptions. Or they buy off the street. That's how they get their supply. There are several hospitals, clinics, and physician's that will prescribe. The clients aren't going to the same place every time...thus the term "doctor shopping".

NC Analyzer said:

Again, I have to ask. What do you think the purpose would be for the change of address? Many of these clients are poor and I've seen them move 3x or more during an investigation. They move all the time due to not having enough money to pay the rent! During the investigative process we, (the investigators), are able to keep track of them because when we open an investigation we get the names of everyone that family knows. They don't have enough resources to go very far and we can find them within hours if they don't call us to tell us their whereabouts. Part of the investigative process is to explain to the family that we have to be able to reach them at all times...they know this and most comply because they know we may remove their child if they don't. After an investigation is closed, we are not allowed to contact them again unless a new investigation is opened. When an investigation is opened, the reporter knows who and what they saw and where it happened...THEY tell us. If they don't know the exact address, we have the resources to locate the home. We have access to utilities, driver's licenses, postal records, etc. We are able to find families...that is the least problematic situation we have. Changes of address mean nothing and what would be the penalty if they didn't change the address? I can assure you this is not significant to the safety of the children.

Bonding is not the issue for surrendering a child. Parental rights are. A child cannot be legally adopted unless the parents have agreed to terminate their parental rights. If parents want to give a child up, we are more than happy to place the child in a safe environment during the termination process. This is not a safety problem...it is a parental rights problem and would result in children floating in the Foster Care system that could not be adopted and placed in a permanent home. The parents would also be subject to criminal penalties if they dropped off their children, so this whole proposal would result in multiple changes in statutes that the Zahra Project hasn't considered.

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The change of address would take out the having to go look for them when the time could be spent on helping that or another child. It falls in the same realm as a RSO in my eyes.

I see it being a parental rights issue but if its written up in the right way dropping a child of any age at a safe house could be an automatic parental termination.

I dont have all the answers. I just know the way it is now is not working. Not only in NC but all over the US. There needs to be improvements across the board. If the penaltys were stiffer there wouldnt be as many hurt and murdered children in our society. We have no tollerance laws about so many things in our country. Abuse and neglect of a child deserves No Tolerance laws. JMO

westsidefox64 said:

The change of address would take out the having to go look for them when the time could be spent on helping that or another child. It falls in the same realm as a RSO in my eyes.

I see it being a parental rights issue but if its written up in the right way dropping a child of any age at a safe house could be an automatic parental termination.

I dont have all the answers. I just know the way it is now is not working. Not only in NC but all over the US. There needs to be improvements across the board. If the penaltys were stiffer there wouldnt be as many hurt and murdered children in our society. We have no tollerance laws about so many things in our country. Abuse and neglect of a child deserves No Tolerance laws. JMO

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I still don't think you understand...we don't usually have to go looking for the family. Out of every 100 reports, I estimate we have to look for someone maybe once...and it doesn't take long to find them. Fact of the matter is, if someone doesn't want to be found...they won't be found...and they certainly won't report an address change. You need to consider this; we live in an age where it is VERY hard to disappear...harder than it is to be found. I cannot stress enough that this proposal is simply a waste of valuable time...you expressed a concern about wasting time...this will waste more time than not reporting address changes. We are already buried in bureaucratic paperwork and procedures which keep us from seeing families as often as we would like...we don't need more of it.

As far as the safe surrender laws...please do some research about what happened in Nebraska when they first legislated their safe surrender laws. It was a huge embarrassment to the state. People from other states were driving to Nebraska to drop off their children. NC doesn't have enough Foster homes to care for the children who need to be removed due to abuse/neglect. The impact of changing this law would be horrific, especially in light of the fact that if parents want to give up their child, there are already policies in place to deal with this....legally and with the least amount of trauma for the child.

Westsidefox:
I agree completely about 0 tolerance for abuse/neglect. I am jaded from working in this system and seeing all these children who are returned to their parents...over and over again. We have some families that are 3rd generation involved in CPS. The courts mandate us to reunite these children. We have judges that refuse to allow removals if they don't have proof of SERIOUS abuse/neglect. And even then we have to show the court that we did everything to keep that child in the home. The courts need to change their views about child abuse/neglect. I'm sick of seeing children returned to parents who will just do it all over again. Courts recognize parental rights as soverign. The laws regarding this need changing.

westsidefox64 said:

The change of address would take out the having to go look for them when the time could be spent on helping that or another child. It falls in the same realm as a RSO in my eyes.

I see it being a parental rights issue but if its written up in the right way dropping a child of any age at a safe house could be an automatic parental termination.

I dont have all the answers. I just know the way it is now is not working. Not only in NC but all over the US. There needs to be improvements across the board. If the penaltys were stiffer there wouldnt be as many hurt and murdered children in our society. We have no tollerance laws about so many things in our country. Abuse and neglect of a child deserves No Tolerance laws. JMO

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I think the change of address reporting and the reporting to LE are very important elements.

Parents move all the time to thwart the efforts of CPS. And often, our overworked CPS responders take an attitude of "well they are out of our County now" and let it go. It should be mandatory anytime a family has contact with CPS, that they file a change of address and that CPS in the new county, check up on them within 30 days or so. Sometimes, if parents are told they must do something, they will do it, in the hopes that CPS will NOT come to their door. Sometimes not. But if there is a penalty for not reporting a change of address, such as a fine or a mandatory week in jail, or something of consequence, they are likely to comply. This would help many keep many children from falling through the cracks.

Also, LE should have a report of every CPS report. It is not uncommon for a family to have contact with CPS but when LE is called for a domestic disturbance, they don't know. So LE doesn't take the extra time to check on the welfare of the children.

It seems to me, this would be very easy to computerize, so that when a dispatcher gets a 911 call at an address and the address is pulled up, a note that CPS is or has been in contact with this family would assist LE in handling the disturbance.

Salem

NC Analyzer said:

Westsidefox:
I agree completely about 0 tolerance for abuse/neglect. I am jaded from working in this system and seeing all these children who are returned to their parents...over and over again. We have some families that are 3rd generation involved in CPS. The courts mandate us to reunite these children. We have judges that refuse to allow removals if they don't have proof of SERIOUS abuse/neglect. And even then we have to show the court that we did everything to keep that child in the home. The courts need to change their views about child abuse/neglect. I'm sick of seeing children returned to parents who will just do it all over again. Courts recognize parental rights as soverign. The laws regarding this need changing.

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I agree with 0 tolerance also. Where a child has been removed from the home for substantiated abuse - the child should NEVER be returned to the home. One strike and you are out. Bummer that the parent gets it together later. It's too late and there can never be any guarantee that the parent will get it together.

Salem

NC Analyzer said:

I still don't think you understand...we don't usually have to go looking for the family. Out of every 100 reports, I estimate we have to look for someone maybe once...and it doesn't take long to find them. Fact of the matter is, if someone doesn't want to be found...they won't be found...and they certainly won't report an address change. You need to consider this; we live in an age where it is VERY hard to disappear...harder than it is to be found. I cannot stress enough that this proposal is simply a waste of valuable time...you expressed a concern about wasting time...this will waste more time than not reporting address changes. We are already buried in bureaucratic paperwork and procedures which keep us from seeing families as often as we would like...we don't need more of it.

As far as the safe surrender laws...please do some research about what happened in Nebraska when they first legislated their safe surrender laws. It was a huge embarrassment to the state. People from other states were driving to Nebraska to drop off their children. NC doesn't have enough Foster homes to care for the children who need to be removed due to abuse/neglect. The impact of changing this law would be horrific, especially in light of the fact that if parents want to give up their child, there are already policies in place to deal with this....legally and with the least amount of trauma for the child.

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I totally agree with all this above. There is no easy and quick fix for what is wrong with our system.

A friend had some family whose 2 children were removed, ages 4 and under 6 months. There are so few foster families these children were sent 120 miles away to the nearest placement.

Then you have people who get into the foster system just to abuse it, so kids taken from their parents can end up being abused or neglected worse than they were at home. There's lots of media articles of children being killed by the foster parents, there's plenty of stories just here on WS.

Salem said:

I think the change of address reporting and the reporting to LE are very important elements.

Parents move all the time to thwart the efforts of CPS. And often, our overworked CPS responders take an attitude of "well they are out of our County now" and let it go. It should be mandatory anytime a family has contact with CPS, that they file a change of address and that CPS in the new county, check up on them within 30 days or so. Sometimes, if parents are told they must do something, they will do it, in the hopes that CPS will NOT come to their door. Sometimes not. But if there is a penalty for not reporting a change of address, such as a fine or a mandatory week in jail, or something of consequence, they are likely to comply. This would help many keep many children from falling through the cracks.

Also, LE should have a report of every CPS report. It is not uncommon for a family to have contact with CPS but when LE is called for a domestic disturbance, they don't know. So LE doesn't take the extra time to check on the welfare of the children.

It seems to me, this would be very easy to computerize, so that when a dispatcher gets a 911 call at an address and the address is pulled up, a note that CPS is or has been in contact with this family would assist LE in handling the disturbance.Salem

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I so totally agree with this!!!! If our driving records can be brought up on a computer when we get stopped they can surely figure out how to work this into it also. WONDERFUL IDEA!!!!

Salem said:

I think the change of address reporting and the reporting to LE are very important elements.

Parents move all the time to thwart the efforts of CPS. And often, our overworked CPS responders take an attitude of "well they are out of our County now" and let it go. It should be mandatory anytime a family has contact with CPS, that they file a change of address and that CPS in the new county, check up on them within 30 days or so. Sometimes, if parents are told they must do something, they will do it, in the hopes that CPS will NOT come to their door. Sometimes not. But if there is a penalty for not reporting a change of address, such as a fine or a mandatory week in jail, or something of consequence, they are likely to comply. This would help many keep many children from falling through the cracks.

Also, LE should have a report of every CPS report. It is not uncommon for a family to have contact with CPS but when LE is called for a domestic disturbance, they don't know. So LE doesn't take the extra time to check on the welfare of the children.

It seems to me, this would be very easy to computerize, so that when a dispatcher gets a 911 call at an address and the address is pulled up, a note that CPS is or has been in contact with this family would assist LE in handling the disturbance.

Salem

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Ok, I will try again to explain what is already the current procedure about where people live during an investigation. We know they move often. If they remain in our county we can find them...simple. We don't have to do that very often because they are told to notify us when they move and the majority of them do so...(usually because we also have their benefits, Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc) That's it. They are able to be found, especially if they have children in school. If they leave our county during an investigation, it doesn't take much to find out where they moved to. Again, we have many resources to locate a client. We notify that county, immediately, because there is an open investigation and the family needs to be checked. That county sees the family in their county. That county advises our county within 7 days (or 10, I'd have to look that up, but usually done a lot sooner) as to their findings. Our county makes a case decision on the allegations and either closes the investigation or moves it into case management services in the new county. We are not allowed to "let it go" as you stated. As I said several times now, address changes are just one more thing that DOESN'T need to be mandated.

Regarding reports duplicated to LE:
When LE is called out on a domestic call, (or any other call), it doesn't matter to them whether there are kids in the home or not. They deal with the situation at hand as needed. The law states LE MUST notify us immediately if they find children in the home where domestic violence/drugs/filth, etc. occurred. If the situation is volatile when LE arrives and children are in the home, we are called immediately to do whatever we need to do to care for the children on the spot. LE and CPS investigators often work hand in hand on many situations. LE doesn't care if kids live at a specific address because perhaps they are at grandma's house when they are called out....No children, not a CPS issue. So, unless the parents are going to be arrested and removed or children are at risk, LE doesn't have reason to notify us. If children are at risk, LE calls us immediately to make arrangements to place the child in a kinship arrangement with grandma or other relative. I can assure you, LE isn't going to be checking a stack of alleged CPS allegations just to see if kids MIGHT live in the home on every call they respond to.

As far as your belief that this is all "easy" because it can be computerized...I don't know about where you live, but where I work in rural NC, we don't have a lot of things that larger cities have because there IS NO MONEY!! Computerized systems that link this information would be cost prohibitive, especially when we would be advising our Board of Commissioners that it isn't a necessity.

All this business of address changes may sound good to those who don't work in this field, but we have a huge system of checks and balances that provide us the ability to know how to find people.
CPS DOES NOT NEED CHANGES OF ADDRESS FROM FORMER CLIENTS!!! They would serve NO worthy purpose in the process of protecting our children.

i agree Salem, if we can have national databases for RSO's we can have them for the purpose of an informed LE nationally. So many times LE finds out after the fact!!! It does not have to go into detail, but if LE see's that there were past issues they would then be required to check the welfare of the child...

Allusonz said:

i agree Salem, if we can have national databases for RSO's we can have them for the purpose of an informed LE nationally. So many times LE finds out after the fact!!! It does not have to go into detail, but if LE see's that there were past issues they would then be required to check the welfare of the child...

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This is already a Supreme Court issue here in NC. A data base that merely confirms previous CPS involvement without conviction for a crime is a violation of privacy rights...sorry.
If you are seeking a data base with information on convicted child abusers, it already exists...as in LE has that and so does the public. Anyone convicted of any crime is available to the public.

to me in this case i often wonder if the officer that responded to the arson/fire call could of confirmed is she was indeed in bed, not that i believe she was but the money spent looking for her for the 3 days could start to offset the cost of what it would be to computerize it, as simplistic as it sounds you simply have to look at the long term effect vs cost MOO and probably not realistic but still something i would love to see

very good point !!! it has been the one i have struggled with is the foip issue and whether it would be tossed by the courts so not sure where the middle ground would be or could be

Not sure what you mean by foip issue but what exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with changes of address? I have explained everything I can and yet you somehow think this will protect our children? I can tell you it won't make any difference! We can't follow these people around! I don't really care if they lived on Main Street one time and First Street the next time. What are you trying to achieve?