"Reckless, irresponsible": Kansas teacher's "gay is same as murder" Facebook rant

Nova said:

With all due respect, I think SkewedView and Soulmagent are ignoring the historical context of homophobia in this country. It is NOT a benign statement of opinion that homosexuality is akin to murder. We punish murderers with death in this country; we have laws that allow others to kill to prevent a murder.

Do the math! What is one saying when one compares consensual sex between adults to murder in that historical, legal and social context?

As for freedom of religion, we also have freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean we can yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater; the Supreme Court has made that clear. Comparing what my husband and I do in private to murder is very much the equivalent of yelling "Fire!" in the crowded "theater" that is American society.

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He yelled "Fire!" in his own house. On his own social media page.


I think people have different views about social media. Personally, I think social media is an extension of one's privacy.... that at the same time, can kinda be public. Like, flying a flag, for instance. I am allowed to fly a flag, that can be viewed by the public, from the privacy of my own home. People who are offended by it don't have the right to tell me to take it down.

Even if a Facebook page is set to "public," it cannot be viewed unless someone makes the DELIBERATE choice to visit said person's FB page and read it. It's not like this person's views are being broadcast all over the nation. I mean.... look at some blogs out there. There are some people with some pretty whack opinions, but I choose to stay away and not read them, whether they are publicly displayed or not.

IMHO, this man should no more be punished for his views that he posts on Facebook than he should for things he decorates his home with. Would it be acceptable for someone from his place of employment, view his home from the public right-of-way, and then declare that he must be terminated from his horticulture position because all his shrubs were dead? No, it's none of their business, it's his private property, and just because his shrubs are dead doesn't mean he can't effectively teach others how to care for them. For that matter, there are numerous overweight doctors and psychotherapists in dysfunctional relationships. Are we now going to monitor THEIR Facebook pages and take away their credentials? They obviously aren't able to do their jobs correctly if they can't fix what's in their own house, right?

It's interesting to me, that someone really thinks that they have the right to tell another they have no right to make judgements on what goes on in their bedroom when they are trying to make the same judgements about what goes on in another's computer room. Why does one person have the right and the other doesn't? We just keep arguing over who has the "right-of-way" and who has the "Yield," when we all just really need to "Stop." (bickering... that is. :twocents


You know, I wear pants. (I'm a girl, btw.) I saw three Mennonite women yesterday in town, and they graciously smiled at me and my four children. It is their belief that women wear dresses and cover their hair in public. No makeup. I had on a strapless swimsuit coverup with my bikini top string tied around my neck. I know my choice of dress was less than desirable to them. I know their beliefs. They didn't say anything, but I'm sure if I had asked them, they would have stated that they believe women should dress much more modestly than I was dressed at the time. (Sorry... we had just been to the pool. :blushing Had I been at their church, or at their home, I would have expected much more scrutiny. My point is, even though I knew of their disapproval, they didn't scream at me to put on a dress and a head covering, and I didn't berate them for their obviously different clothing choice. Our paths crossed.... and we coexisted. I don't feel convicted the same way they do, but I do believe I am a child of God. So, maybe your beliefs aren't the same as mine, but it's not my belief that matters, it's yours. So why even worry about what someone else believes? Let them believe it, and leave it alone. Why not just coexist and let's quit screaming at each other to accept and change, but rather respect each others differences?

(using the words "you" and "I" figuratively, not literally. )

In the end, I find it disturbing that so many are willing to abdicate their own right to be free from free-speech related reprisals. Seriously, do you really want to set a precedent that it's okay to be punished by your employer because they don't agree with the opinions you express on your own time and in a pseudo-private setting? This doesn't just affect SM, as you have the same reasonable expectation of freedom from job-related scrutiny on SM sites as you do at, say, a busy restaurant - sure, it's a public place, but if your boss decided to bug your table or hired a PI to spy on your conversations & then fired you for what you said, would you not expect to be able to fight that?

Seriously, if the guy was advocating violence/reprisals etc, I could see the need to take action...but that's just not the case here, unless you want to really twist & edit his statement...or if you want to start firing teachers that post comments about how anti-gay marriage people are ignorant bigots no different from Hitler etc...

All JMO

Charlie09 said:

He didn't equate the two
He said they are both sins

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And the choir sings.

Equating consensual sex with murder is not an accident. He could have said the Bible views homosexuality as the same as divorce. That would have been a fairer equation, but it would have required a lot more courage to take such a stand.

Comparing gays to murderers is not benign, no matter how many of your pals show up to pretend otherwise.

Charlie09 said:

a rabid homophobe, because he doesn't embrace gay marriage?
That's a rather intolerant viewpoint -

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That post is deliberately misleading. What the OP said is that comparing gays to murderers is homophobic.

And it is.

T4Tide said:

He yelled "Fire!" in his own house. On his own social media page....

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Then how come we all know about it? Somehow I doubt anyone would know if I yelled "Fire!" in my house.

It's interesting to me, that someone really thinks that they have the right to tell another they have no right to make judgements on what goes on in their bedroom when they are trying to make the same judgements about what goes on in another's computer room. Why does one person have the right and the other doesn't?....

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The two rights are not the same just because you've decided to equate them. What my partner and I do in the bedroom affects no one else. Equating us with murderers is dangerous speech that in the past has proven to inspire others to violence.

Comparing gays to murderers is also lousy logic and that is something we should always deplore.

Tugela said:

Actually, the original meaning in the original bible languages is vague about homosexuality. The interpretation of it being a sin is based on later translations and reflects that morality rather than the original meaning.

There is a lot of stuff of a sexual nature in the Bible that would be regarded as dubious or immoral in today's society, but you can bet that this guy won't be going on a rant defending those practices. The truth is this guy is just a homophobe, a rabid dangerous one at that, and it has nothing to do with religion.

One could say that intolerance is a sin as well, and that is certainly something that is taught as such in the new testiment. Presumably this teacher is not a Christian, or he would not be holding those views.

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Thank you for actually providing historical information. As you can see, it will be ignored here.

I don't believe public school teachers should be posting on facebook or blogs at all, but it does concern Christians that the time seems nearing when they can not voice their beliefs based on what the Bible/God says. Many believe (including me) that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God given, and not men's opinions. There are many detailed explanations from experts and others who believe the KJV comes closest to original translations of Hebrew/Greek, and not necessarily the oldest ones. We can quote almost any other book or author but can't quote God? Christians, homosexuals, anyone should have free speech, freedom to practice religion, work, live, etc. without fear. Teens do need protection from bullies though, and if teachers spouting off make it worse, then they should be corrected or get a job in a private school.

Nova said:

Thank you for actually providing historical information. As you can see, it will be ignored here.

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I had actually asked the mods for clarification on that post since we aren't supposed to talk about religion. Since it still stands, I guess it's ok to say - that the above post is somewhat incorrect.

The Bible both Old and New testament are pretty specific about non acceptance of homosexual acts, as well as other acts considered sin. The original post on facebook covered it well - one is not greater than the other, and all it takes is one sin to need a redeemer - be it sexual sin of any persuasion, murder, or simply lying. We are the ones who differentiate and try to justify "appropriate levels of sin".

He did not call for any violence, he simply does not believe in gay marriage.
If he said he doesn't believe in Group marriage between 5 people - he wouldn't be accused of hate speech like he is over same sex marriage.

Charlie09 said:

I had actually asked the mods for clarification on that post since we aren't supposed to talk about religion. Since it still stands, I guess it's ok to say - that the above post is somewhat incorrect.

The Bible both Old and New testament are pretty specific about non acceptance of homosexual acts, as well as other acts considered sin. The original post on facebook covered it well - one is not greater than the other, and all it takes is one sin to need a redeemer - be it sexual sin of any persuasion, murder, or simply lying. We are the ones who differentiate and try to justify "appropriate levels of sin".

He did not call for any violence, he simply does not believe in gay marriage.
If he said he doesn't believe in Group marriage between 5 people - he wouldn't be accused of hate speech like he is over same sex marriage.

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Again you are being disingenuous and since I know you to be highly intelligent, I suspect you know perfectly well what you are doing. I suppose the teacher you are defending will say that makes you the same as a murderer; but I think that's overstating the case.

The OP wasn't discussing religion per se. S/he was discussing ancient texts and the scholarly understanding of them. (As for the claim from Txsvicki that the KJV is highly accurate, I've never known a reputable scholar (Christian or Jewish or atheist) to make such a claim.)

Again, the problem with the teacher's post is not that he bundled homosexuality with a lot of other Biblical prohibitions, but that he took pains to compare homosexuality to murder. This is a logical fallacy (and historically, a dangerous one) regardless of how one reads the Bible. Even if one believes God is so dim as to be unable to distinguish between crimes with victims and crimes without, humans should be able to tell the difference.

Nova said:

Again you are being disingenuous and since I know you to be highly intelligent, I suspect you know perfectly well what you are doing. I suppose the teacher you are defending will say that makes you the same as a murderer; but I think that's overstating the case.
Again? I am not at all being disingenuous. The fact is, no one would care if he was talking about a group getting married, it's just because he's against same sex marriage. There is nothing disingenuous about that statement.
The OP wasn't discussing religion per se. S/he was discussing ancient texts and the scholarly understanding of them. (As for the claim from Txsvicki that the KJV is highly accurate, I've never known a reputable scholar (Christian or Jewish or atheist) to make such a claim.)
And I'm saying I disagree with the other poster, it most certainly is a religious discussion. I'm not talking about our translation and would be happy to speak about the original language if we are allowed to, along with the secular and religious cultures at that time.

Again, the problem with the teacher's post is not that he bundled homosexuality with a lot of other Biblical prohibitions, but that he took pains to compare homosexuality to murder. This is a logical fallacy (and historically, a dangerous one) regardless of how one reads the Bible. Even if one believes God is so dim as to be unable to distinguish between crimes with victims and crimes without, humans should be able to tell the difference.

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The problem is exactly that someone would dare say homosexuality is a sin *gasp* and be a teacher in a public school - much less say it where other people could hear or see it. That is the ONLY problem with what he said if you were being completely honest.

He did not compare the act of homosexuality to an act of murder. He said all is sin in God's eyes. I don't think it's God who's being dim on how to read what was actually written.

Really, why should it matter what he said? Why should it matter that someone believes in a literal Word of God and stands by it? If you don't believe in it, do what you want, but why try to cut off someone else's freedom to believe and speak about his religion? Even if he was trying to get a petition started similar to our Prop 8 - he's allowed to do that.

I'm wondering what would be the reaction of Christian fundamentalists if a teacher posted as his status something like "there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet".

Wonder if they'd be okay with him teaching their Christian kids in public school, if he said that publicly on his FB page, with students who could see it.

Gardenlady said:

I'm wondering what would be the reaction of Christian fundamentalists if a teacher posted as his status something like "there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet".

Wonder if they'd be okay with him teaching their Christian kids in public school, if he said that publicly on his FB page, with students who could see it.

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I think if a Christian Fundamentalist sent their kids to a public school - they pretty well know that is a possibility.

Edited to add: No one is saying you have to be of the same opinion or that he can't be disagreed with. This rabid attack on him because of the subject matter is what is the issue to me.
It wasn't a student who was offended it was another teacher.
I think it's good practice to not have kids and teachers be friends on facebook personally.

Charlie09 said:

The problem is exactly that someone would dare say homosexuality is a sin *gasp* and be a teacher in a public school - much less say it where other people could hear or see it. That is the ONLY problem with what he said if you were being completely honest.

He did not compare the act of homosexuality to an act of murder. He said all is sin in God's eyes. I don't think it's God who's being dim on how to read what was actually written.

Really, why should it matter what he said? Why should it matter that someone believes in a literal Word of God and stands by it? If you don't believe in it, do what you want, but why try to cut off someone else's freedom to believe and speak about his religion? Even if he was trying to get a petition started similar to our Prop 8 - he's allowed to do that.

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You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but even you know better. The teacher did not merely say that homosexuality is a sin per the Bible. He took pains to compare it to MURDER. Period. And that's the only reason this thread exists.

We all know some people consider homosexuality to be a sin. Of course, they're full of crap and are cherry-picking the OT prohibitions that suit their own, very human prejudices, but their opinions are hardly newsworthy.

It's the equation of consensual adult activity with violence that is notable because that very equation has long been used to justify violence against gay people. The majority of Americans are practically gleeful about capital punishment for murderers. Again, you do the math.

Nova said:

You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but even you know better. The teacher did not merely say that homosexuality is a sin per the Bible. He took pains to compare it to MURDER. Period. And that's the only reason this thread exists.

We all know some people consider homosexuality to be a sin. Of course, they're full of crap and are cherry-picking the OT prohibitions that suit their own, very human prejudices, but their opinions are hardly newsworthy.

It's the equation of consensual adult activity with violence that is notable because that very equation has long been used to justify violence against gay people. The majority of Americans are practically gleeful about capital punishment for murderers. Again, you do the math.

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Sounds like your beef is really with literal Christianity- and our protected freedom of religion, of speech. - That's a bummer. You don't have to like it, but his speech is just as protected as your offensive post above is. Now, TOS acceptability - that may be something different. But I'm not a mod.

Nova said:

Then how come we all know about it? Somehow I doubt anyone would know if I yelled "Fire!" in my house.

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Because someone he knows personally or through his work brought it to the public's attention. It was probably brought to his local newspaper or network, and then picked up from there. OTHER people made it known, not him. Same as the guy with the "golden voice." I mean, how else would I know about it? He didn't tell me, but the news caught wind of it and then everyone knew.

Nova said:

The two rights are not the same just because you've decided to equate them. What my partner and I do in the bedroom affects no one else. Equating us with murderers is dangerous speech that in the past has proven to inspire others to violence.

Comparing gays to murderers is also lousy logic and that is something we should always deplore.

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I am the same as a murderer in the eyes of God. My sins are no greater or smaller. Jesus suffered and died for every murderer, just as He died for me. Murderers, who turn from their evil ways and ask for forgiveness, will worship beside me in Heaven one day. Sin is sin is sin.

I just equated myself with murderers. Does that make you want to kill me or be violent against me? No. (Well... I hope not? :waitasec::floorlaugh I don't see the lousy logic. I see salvation.

Gardenlady said:

I'm wondering what would be the reaction of Christian fundamentalists if a teacher posted as his status something like "there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet".

Wonder if they'd be okay with him teaching their Christian kids in public school, if he said that publicly on his FB page, with students who could see it.

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It'd go like this: Christian parents would be outraged if they caught wind of it... especially where I live. They might take their kids out of school because of it, but many wouldn't care and just accept it. However, you can bet your supper that no one would tell him he couldn't say what he wanted to say about his religion. It would be protected to the millionth degree.

T4Tide said:

It'd go like this: Christian parents would be outraged if they caught wind of it... especially where I live. They might take their kids out of school because of it, but many wouldn't care and just accept it. However, you can bet your supper that no one would tell him he couldn't say what he wanted to say about his religion. It would be protected to the millionth degree.

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What if he said apostasy from Islam should be punishable by death?

Nova said:

With all due respect, I think SkewedView and Soulmagent are ignoring the historical context of homophobia in this country. It is NOT a benign statement of opinion that homosexuality is akin to murder. We punish murderers with death in this country; we have laws that allow others to kill to prevent a murder.

Do the math! What is one saying when one compares consensual sex between adults to murder in that historical, legal and social context?

As for freedom of religion, we also have freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean we can yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater; the Supreme Court has made that clear. Comparing what my husband and I do in private to murder is very much the equivalent of yelling "Fire!" in the crowded "theater" that is American society.

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Here is the part of his post where he states his rant about sins.

It ranks in God's eyes the same as murder, lying, stealing, or cheating. His standards are perfect and ALL have sinned and fallen short of His glory. Sin is sin and we all deserve hell. Only those who accept Christ as Lord and daily with the help of the Spirit

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It appears he is lumping all sins together as he seems to be saying it doesnt matter what sin you have committed you still have sinned. Not that he meant we should punish people the same way for all sins on earth, but all of us are going to hell. I also do not think his facebook counts as a crowded theater. Nor do believe I need to consider the historical context of of homophobia in this country for me to be of the opinion that this guy was freely speaking on his personal facebook about his religious veiws.

I read what the guy said ,and believe it to be his right as whatever type of christian he is to speak his mind on . I dont think he should lose his Job over that post. I think however on my personal note he might need a check up from the neck up to see if he should be teaching . As long as he is not saying this crap in class what does it matter what he post on his facebook?

Tolerance works both ways. JMO .

Charlie09 said:

Sounds like your beef is really with literal Christianity- and our protected freedom of religion, of speech. - That's a bummer. You don't have to like it, but his speech is just as protected as your offensive post above is. Now, TOS acceptability - that may be something different. But I'm not a mod.

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Yeah, I think fundamentalism of any stripe is akin to belief in Santa Claus.

But that's not the issue in this thread, as I have said again and again and again.

You are deliberately diverting attention from this teacher's obnoxious equation of consensual activity to violence because you know full well there is no defense for his views.

T4Tide said:

Because someone he knows personally or through his work brought it to the public's attention. It was probably brought to his local newspaper or network, and then picked up from there. OTHER people made it known, not him. Same as the guy with the "golden voice." I mean, how else would I know about it? He didn't tell me, but the news caught wind of it and then everyone knew....

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If the distribution group were sufficiently limited, I might feel less harshly on the subject. But a teacher should be smart enough to know that anything he puts into print may take on a life of its own.

And what was the point? All those claiming his remarks are so benign should be able to answer why he jumped to a comparison with murderers, rather than one with adulterers, masturbators or other sexual offenses.

I am the same as a murderer in the eyes of God. My sins are no greater or smaller. Jesus suffered and died for every murderer, just as He died for me. Murderers, who turn from their evil ways and ask for forgiveness, will worship beside me in Heaven one day. Sin is sin is sin.

I just equated myself with murderers. Does that make you want to kill me or be violent against me? No. (Well... I hope not? :waitasec::floorlaugh I don't see the lousy logic. I see salvation.

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Of course not, but your history as an individual is not the same as the considerable history of violence against and killing of gay people. The teacher should be ashamed that he contributed to that history, whether intentionally or out of ignorance.