FL - Adam Kaufman on trial for the murder of wife Eleanora Kaufman, 33

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Soulmagent said:
I want to research the orange foam after the case.

I didnt know it came out of her mouth but would make for a theory. Was it in her lungs as well?
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I thought I heard that earlier in the trial, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. I assumed that was the fluid that was on the floor, and there apparently was foam in her mouth according to Adam.
 
Soulmagent said:
I want to research the orange foam after the case.

I didnt know it came out of her mouth but would make for a theory. Was it in her lungs as well?
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I saw Chris Farleys death scene photo. It was horrible . I would like to know if that foam comes out everytime someone dies?
 
Just thought I would throw this out here to kind of get what the prosecution has done before they close. From listening to the testimony so far this is some of what I have learned. I admit I can be completely off the wall, but I am thinking this is what I have heard. Please feel free to correct any of my mistakes.

There were deep muscle injuries inside her neck from the front of her neck to the spine and too deep to be caused by trying to insert the breathing tube. The bruising caused bleeding. The pinkish color froth on the floor and wherever was the mixture of the blood and liquid that came up from her throat. Her throat had to be suctioned in the ER because of the blood build up in it before the breathing tube could be placed in her throat.

The only damage to her heart was a 3mm scar if not that size a very teeny tiny scar in her heart between the chambers. This was not a new scar. Also there was a little patch of cells (can't remember their name) that can be found in all hearts just like the little scar. The little cells are like an army going on patrol looking for infection.

The defense wants to say there was scarring all over the heart which would be consistent with heart damage and congestive heart failure, but there was really no evidence of it according to the ME. Her heart was normal except for the little scar and little patch of cells.

If she fell forward from the toilet and hit her neck on the magazine basket the pressure of the contact from the basket to her throat would not be great enough to cause death. Also her forehead or nose would hit the basket before her throat. There probably would be some facial injury from the fall, but there wasn't any.

There are marks on the outside of her neck front and I think on the back of neck. One picture I saw they looked like claw marks on the front of her neck.

Now if there is no heart damage and she has no illness, but does have injuries that are consistent with strangulation how did she die? There was just her, her husband and two children at home. Do we know what goes on behind close doors?
 
I think it really does come down to the forensic pathology evidence - was she strangled, or was there a natural explanation for her death? The defense has damaged the credibility of the State's ME already, and they have Baden lined up as their witness.

If the defense can't cast doubt on the strangulation theory then there is really only one person who could have done it. If they can offer evidence that her injuries are all consistent with a natural death I think the jury will have to acquit.
 
Jackson44 said:
Just thought I would throw this out here to kind of get what the prosecution has done before they close. From listening to the testimony so far this is some of what I have learned. I admit I can be completely off the wall, but I am thinking this is what I have heard. Please feel free to correct any of my mistakes.

There were deep muscle injuries inside her neck from the front of her neck to the spine and too deep to be caused by trying to insert the breathing tube. The bruising caused bleeding. The pinkish color froth on the floor and wherever was the mixture of the blood and liquid that came up from her throat. Her throat had to be suctioned in the ER because of the blood build up in it before the breathing tube could be placed in her throat.

The only damage to her heart was a 3mm scar if not that size a very teeny tiny scar in her heart between the chambers. This was not a new scar. Also there was a little patch of cells (can't remember their name) that can be found in all hearts just like the little scar. The little cells are like an army going on patrol looking for infection.

The defense wants to say there was scarring all over the heart which would be consistent with heart damage and congestive heart failure, but there was really no evidence of it according to the ME. Her heart was normal except for the little scar and little patch of cells.

If she fell forward from the toilet and hit her neck on the magazine basket the pressure of the contact from the basket to her throat would not be great enough to cause death. Also her forehead or nose would hit the basket before her throat. There probably would be some facial injury from the fall, but there wasn't any.

There are marks on the outside of her neck front and I think on the back of neck. One picture I saw they looked like claw marks on the front of her neck.

Now if there is no heart damage and she has no illness, but does have injuries that are consistent with strangulation how did she die? There was just her, her husband and two children at home. Do we know what goes on behind close doors?
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I just dont believe it is impossible for the presure not to cause death from falling.

I pointed out an example of something I witnesses in which the woman really could have died.

I also saw a woman fall and break 9 bones in her face from a standing position , people who have seizures often die from falls and it takes very little constant pressure to cause death. See the choking game for examples of this.

I think the prosecutions unwillingsness to consider the reality about the amount of pressure needed for death is harming them. They needed to show the amount of force needed for the injuries and they are not seeming to do that yet.

I know the jury must be thinking that most certainly could cut off someones air supply. They might not be thinking it caused those injuries . That would make them question why the prosecution believes this so strongly or that the prosecution is misleading in its case. JMO.
 
Soulmagent said:
I just dont believe it is impossible for the presure not to cause death from falling.

I pointed out an example of something I witnesses in which the woman really could have died.

I also saw a woman fall and break 9 bones in her face from a standing position , people who have seizures often die from falls and it takes very little constant pressure to cause death. See the choking game for examples of this.

I think the prosecutions unwillingsness to consider the reality about the amount of pressure needed for death is harming them. They needed to show the amount of force needed for the injuries and they are not seeming to do that yet.

I know the jury must be thinking that most certainly could cut off someones air supply. They might not be thinking it caused those injuries . That would make them question why the prosecution believes this so strongly or that the prosecution is misleading in its case. JMO.
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The forensic testimony did not address the brain, did it? Was the brain examined for a possible seizure? I think if she had a seizure or was seizing when she fell onto the magazine rack, the contortions and odd movements that a seizure can cause could have caused her neck to continually hit the magazine rack edge. Is it possible that if she had a heart attack and was losing consciousness that she tried to lift her head and it fell back onto the rack, and if she tried to lift her body, could the same thing occur and might she fall onto her shoulder. It sounds strange but the whole thing is so odd.
 
CathyinTexas said:
The forensic testimony did not address the brain, did it? Was the brain examined for a possible seizure? I think if she had a seizure or was seizing when she fell onto the magazine rack, the contortions and odd movements that a seizure can cause could have caused her neck to continually hit the magazine rack edge. Is it possible that if she had a heart attack and was losing consciousness that she tried to lift her head and it fell back onto the rack, and if she tried to lift her body, could the same thing occur and might she fall onto her shoulder. It sounds strange but the whole thing is so odd.
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Even if the brian was examined for a possible seizure it might not show in the examination. Medical professionals are often at a loss on being able to tell if one has had a seizure and monitoring in suggested in suspected cases.

The seizure movement you describe are not accurate to most cases and there are different types of seizures. some people may only ever have one seizure during their life time while others are plagued with reoccuring unpredictable seizures that prevent them enjoying the quailty of life most people take for granted.
 
Soulmagent said:
Even if the brian was examined for a possible seizure it might not show in the examination. Medical professionals are often at a loss on being able to tell if one has had a seizure and monitoring in suggested in suspected cases.

The seizure movement you describe are not accurate to most cases and there are different types of seizures. some people may only ever have one seizure during their life time while others are plagued with reoccuring unpredictable seizures that prevent them enjoying the quailty of life most people take for granted.
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I have a grand moll seizure about once a year and it started when I was just out of college and the neurologist can't detect exactly why, unless I was injured young. I wasn't.........But I do show lesions on my brain in the MRI's, so they give it a generic name adult onset epilepsy. WHATEVER! But I have had similar accidents happen to me, it just didn't take my life........Thank God I am usually around someone when it happens.........
 
Hello,
This is my first post on websleuths. I have been actively watching the Adam Kaufman trial and am respectfully in quite a different view from many on here.
In my eyes, he is clearly guilty. I do not know how one can explain the deep deep bruising on the front, back, and sides of the neck. When combined with Mr. Kaufmans conflicting stories, I simply cannot see reasonable doubt.
I do realize that the police work was far from perfect. That being said, when one obtains top tier lawyers, their will always be a plethora of things to attack. Their are 1000 different elements to a crime scene, an investigation, reports, medical examiner testing, etc, etc, etc, and great lawyers will always hone in on and empasize the mistakes ( or things that appear that could be mistakes). I can assure you that no investigation is perfect from start to finish.
Although Mr. Millian is an excellent attorney, aren't people seeing alot of this as bluster, talking louder than the prosecution, and just picking on things that aren't even really there?? Or is it only I that is seeing this?? Although the defense team is clearly the more experienced/ dynamic attorneys, is this a reason to acquit a man that seems pretty clearly guilty? I dont know, just my 2 cents.
I would appreciate others thoughts on whether it appears Mr. Millian is grasping at straws that aren't there and is just trying to create a doubt by great lawyering?
 
Cappuccino said:
I think it really does come down to the forensic pathology evidence - was she strangled, or was there a natural explanation for her death? The defense has damaged the credibility of the State's ME already, and they have Baden lined up as their witness.

If the defense can't cast doubt on the strangulation theory then there is really only one person who could have done it. If they can offer evidence that her injuries are all consistent with a natural death I think the jury will have to acquit.
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I only wish they had somone other than Baden to testify against the ME. He proved to me that he will testify to anything in the Phil Spector trial, thus calling his testimony into question. He picked the wrong high profile trial to perjure himself, imo. Makes me question anything he has to say.
 
kinetico55 said:
Hello,
This is my first post on websleuths. I have been actively watching the Adam Kaufman trial and am respectfully in quite a different view from many on here.
In my eyes, he is clearly guilty. I do not know how one can explain the deep deep bruising on the front, back, and sides of the neck. When combined with Mr. Kaufmans conflicting stories, I simply cannot see reasonable doubt.
I do realize that the police work was far from perfect. That being said, when one obtains top tier lawyers, their will always be a plethora of things to attack. Their are 1000 different elements to a crime scene, an investigation, reports, medical examiner testing, etc, etc, etc, and great lawyers will always hone in on and empasize the mistakes ( or things that appear that could be mistakes). I can assure you that no investigation is perfect from start to finish.
Although Mr. Millian is an excellent attorney, aren't people seeing alot of this as bluster, talking louder than the prosecution, and just picking on things that aren't even really there?? Or is it only I that is seeing this?? Although the defense team is clearly the more experienced/ dynamic attorneys, is this a reason to acquit a man that seems pretty clearly guilty? I dont know, just my 2 cents.
I would appreciate others thoughts on whether it appears Mr. Millian is grasping at straws that aren't there and is just trying to create a doubt by great lawyering?
Click to expand...

At times I did find him irratating and I do think that could reflect in the result of the trial.

I will say just when it seems he is blustering, he makes a point and that seems ro overcome my irratation of him. His passion makes it seem he is being honest and is truely annoyed at what he thinks is injustice. I am sure the jury is feeling it. True or courtroom antics.

I also dont think Adam is clearly guilty as I have not seen evidence of that .

I will post however what I truely think on all aspects of what I see in court an I love to do so.

And welcome to websleuths!!!!!
 
Thanks Soulmagent. I appreciate your thoughts on the trial. I am very interested to watch and discuss the trial the rest of the way through. Kinetico55
 
It is really disheartining to find that the ME finds one way and there are always defense experts that will testify to the complete opposite. It is really discomfiting to me that there are no true "experts" .
 
kinetico55 said:
Hello,
This is my first post on websleuths. I have been actively watching the Adam Kaufman trial and am respectfully in quite a different view from many on here.
In my eyes, he is clearly guilty. I do not know how one can explain the deep deep bruising on the front, back, and sides of the neck. When combined with Mr. Kaufmans conflicting stories, I simply cannot see reasonable doubt.
I do realize that the police work was far from perfect. That being said, when one obtains top tier lawyers, their will always be a plethora of things to attack. Their are 1000 different elements to a crime scene, an investigation, reports, medical examiner testing, etc, etc, etc, and great lawyers will always hone in on and empasize the mistakes ( or things that appear that could be mistakes). I can assure you that no investigation is perfect from start to finish.
Although Mr. Millian is an excellent attorney, aren't people seeing alot of this as bluster, talking louder than the prosecution, and just picking on things that aren't even really there?? Or is it only I that is seeing this?? Although the defense team is clearly the more experienced/ dynamic attorneys, is this a reason to acquit a man that seems pretty clearly guilty? I dont know, just my 2 cents.
I would appreciate others thoughts on whether it appears Mr. Millian is grasping at straws that aren't there and is just trying to create a doubt by great lawyering?
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post and I agree with everything you have said. Good to see you here!
 
ohiogirl said:
I only wish they had somone other than Baden to testify against the ME. He proved to me that he will testify to anything in the Phil Spector trial, thus calling his testimony into question. He picked the wrong high profile trial to perjure himself, imo. Makes me question anything he has to say.
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I had such great respect for Baden before the Spector trial. Then seeing and hearing him perjure himself, imo, on the witness stand during that trial just made me sick and destroyed every bit of that respect I had for him. I would have to see the evidence with my own eyes before I would ever believe anything Baden had to say about it.
 
Whoops, I have to make a correction of something I said in kinetico55's post. I can't say that I believe Adam is guilty yet. I have to wait and see what the defense presents, but so far they haven't given me anything concrete to help me see what could have happened to cause this death. I am waiting to see a picture of her heart with all the scarring in it that the defense keeps talking about to help me form my opinion.
 
Jackson44 said:
Whoops, I have to make a correction of something I said in kinetico55's post. I can't say that I believe Adam is guilty yet. I have to wait and see what the defense presents, but so far they haven't given me anything concrete to help me see what could have happened to cause this death. I am waiting to see a picture of her heart with all the scarring in it that the defense keeps talking about to help me form my opinion.
Click to expand...

We have only heard mention of the heart, which at first was declared disease free. I doubt the slides show every area of the heart that could have been defective. I also have heard nothing about the brain. I remember from the CA trial that it is standard to open the skull and check the brain. Did they, and can they say with 100% certainty she didn't have a stroke or seizure? I am pretty sure it was mentioned she had a history of seizures. Sorry to be redundant, but I haven't heard anyone on CNN address this.
 
I thought I read somewhere a certain percentage of people just die for no particular reason. On autopsy they never find out what happened. These can be otherwise young healthy people.

Again those marks on the neck are concerning. I dont know how many of these unexplained deaths had strange marks on the neck.
 
I wonder if the judge is watching the trial live stream. She is always looking at something.
 
Watching the simulation . Seeing the head fell forward made me again wonder if she had a seizure.

I wonder if a seizure would draw muscle in the back in an arch like fashion pull the neck and head backwords?

I have seen the hands clench in odd ways and know of people have pulled muscles after one but I am not sure about back arching.

I would do a simulation but I dont know how.
 
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