Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

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Just a quickie before bedtime here. I looked at the photos of the head injury, that was one horrific blow!

The rope was imbedded so deeply.

I had a random thought just as I was looking and thinking, could she have been on a skateboard with the rope around her neck and the long end of the rope being held by 'someone' who purposefully whirled her into a cement wall in the basement?

No blood, but perhaps some hair could have been found imbedded in 'the/a' wall in the basement. This really does not hold water, because why the coverup IF IF it was as simple as all that.

Good night all.



.
 
I am not sure what the facts relating to the Maglite are

Can anyone tell me it the following is accurate please?

It was found on the benchtop in the kitchen
It has not been positively identified as having been owned by John Ramsey
There were no fingerprints on it
There were no fibres on it
There was no blood on it
There was no hair on it
There was no DNA on it

Is there anything else that is known about it?
 
aussiesheila said:
I am not sure what the facts relating to the Maglite are

Can anyone tell me it the following is accurate please?

It was found on the benchtop in the kitchen
It has not been positively identified as having been owned by John Ramsey
There were no fingerprints on it
There were no fibres on it
There was no blood on it
There was no hair on it
There was no DNA on it

Is there anything else that is known about it?
Click to expand...


aussiesheila,

The 3-cell black MagLite was found sitting upright on the kitchen counter. It belonged to the Ramseys and was normally kept in a drawer in the wet bar area (just a few steps away from where it was found). The Ramseys could not immediately identify the light because they were shown a photo of it after the crime lab had processed it for fingerprints, and the chemicals used in the processing turned the aluminum surface of the light a mottled color.

Here's some miscellaneous info about the flashlight:

o It measured 12 1/3" long.

o It weighed 2 pounds.

o No fingerprints were found on the light nor its batteries.

o The retail price of the MagLite was about $25 and had been given to John as a gift from John Andrew.

o The anodized aluminum casing was not damaged.


IMO the Maglite was not the murder weapon because a 12" long object could not have produced the velocity needed to crush JonBenet's skull and split it in two. Only a baseball bat could have produced that kind of velocity.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab,
Lots of good information on the flashlight, thank you. Patsy was on a softball team, so a friend of an acquaintance told me not long ago. DID Burke or anyone else play softball? Someone had to have a 'hearty' and a strong wielded swing to one to deliver such damage. I just spent a fair amount of time looking at the damaged skull link.

One of the three victims shown on that link, had been strangled by a scarf, and had a similar mark to one on JonBenets neck.

The large round dark spot on her face is certainly a puzzle.

Lets remember the fireplace tools as well that were in the home. If I remember correctly one was found just outside the basement room, on the floor, where her body was found.



Here's some miscellaneous info about the flashlight:

o It measured 12 1/3" long.

o It weighed 2 pounds.

o No fingerprints were found on the light nor its batteries.

o The retail price of the MagLite was about $25 and had been given to John as a gift from John Andrew.

o The anodized aluminum casing was not damaged.


IMO the Maglite was not the murder weapon because a 12" long object could not have produced the velocity needed to crush JonBenet's skull and split it in two. Only a baseball bat could have produced that kind of velocity.

BlueCrab
Click to expand...
 
6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,

7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little

8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last

10 wear that?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the

12 Whites on the 25th.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of

14 the 25th?[/QUOTE]

Great catch Nehemiah! ...little silver snaps. Sure beats a stun gun! JonBenet was initially rendered unconcious in her bedroom and my belief is that the blow to the head felled her to the floor. The cord was cut on her bed but I do not know if it was placed on JonBenet in her bedroom. The little snaps from her velvet dress most likely would have caused the marks on her face.

Remember when the monster David Westerfield took Danielle from her bed? He didn't need a stun gun to immobilize her because he punched her in the face and knocked her two front teeth out before carrying her out the Van Damm home.

Patsy claims that JonBenet wore the velvet dress Christmas day but in reality she wore it Christmas Eve.
 
Toltec said:
6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,

7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little

8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last

10 wear that?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the

12 Whites on the 25th.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of

14 the 25th?
Click to expand...

Great catch Nehemiah! ...little silver snaps. Sure beats a stun gun! JonBenet was initially rendered unconcious in her bedroom and my belief is that the blow to the head felled her to the floor. The cord was cut on her bed but I do not know if it was placed on JonBenet in her bedroom. The little snaps from her velvet dress most likely would have caused the marks on her face.
Patsy claims that JonBenet wore the velvet dress Christmas day but in reality she wore it Christmas Eve.[/QUOTE]



Very interesting, Toltec. I wonder if Patsy said "little velvet vest" instead of "dress"? And, I wonder if the vest had these little silver snaps? If so, your theory (and ultimately Dr. Spitz') theory of the marks being from the snaps would be entirely possible.

We know that Patsy has said before that JB wore black velvet jeans and the white Gap top to the White's. Has she said anywhere that JB wore the black velvet vest with this ensemble? We're back to the clothes again, where I think the answer to this mystery lies.
 
The only board certified forensic pathologist who examined the marks on JonBenet in person, Dr. John Meyer, has stated the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries. All other medical experts, except Werner Spitz, agree the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries. Spitz is winging it because all he has seen are the crime scene photos of the marks, so how does he know if the marks are stun gun burns or abrasions from pebbles or snaps? He doesn't.

I'll go with the the only expert who examined JonBenet's injuries in person, John Meyer, and most of the other experts, and say JonBenet was likely stungunned.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
aussiesheila,

The 3-cell black MagLite was found sitting upright on the kitchen counter. It belonged to the Ramseys and was normally kept in a drawer in the wet bar area (just a few steps away from where it was found). The Ramseys could not immediately identify the light because they were shown a photo of it after the crime lab had processed it for fingerprints, and the chemicals used in the processing turned the aluminum surface of the light a mottled color.

Here's some miscellaneous info about the flashlight:

o It measured 12 1/3" long.

o It weighed 2 pounds.

o No fingerprints were found on the light nor its batteries.

o The retail price of the MagLite was about $25 and had been given to John as a gift from John Andrew.

o The anodized aluminum casing was not damaged.


IMO the Maglite was not the murder weapon because a 12" long object could not have produced the velocity needed to crush JonBenet's skull and split it in two. Only a baseball bat could have produced that kind of velocity.

BlueCrab
Click to expand...
Thanks Bluecrab, I thought if anyone would reply it would be you. You are a great help to the lazy ones.

You are quite sure are you, that it belonged to the Ramseys? I have only read transcripts where John was looking at it and didn't think it was his. You must have found some more up-to-date info.

If it was the Ramsey's Maglite why are people talking about it as being related to the murder? Isn't it normal to have Maglites around the house, and normal for them to be left on benchtops? OK some people are suggesting it was the murder weapon, but if one does not think that it was, does it hold any other significance?

If you don't mind my picking your brains again, do you have any miscellaneous information to offer about significant baseball bats?
 
aussiesheila said:
Thanks Bluecrab, I thought if anyone would reply it would be you. You are a great help to the lazy ones.

You are quite sure are you, that it belonged to the Ramseys? I have only read transcripts where John was looking at it and didn't think it was his. You must have found some more up-to-date info.

If it was the Ramsey's Maglite why are people talking about it as being related to the murder? Isn't it normal to have Maglites around the house, and normal for them to be left on benchtops? OK some people are suggesting it was the murder weapon, but if one does not think that it was, does it hold any other significance?

If you don't mind my picking your brains again, do you have any miscellaneous information to offer about significant baseball bats?
Click to expand...


aussieshiela,

In regard to the flashlight:

TOM HANEY: "The next group of photos show a black metal flashlight. Do you recognize that?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "It looks similar to the one John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday, or something. It looks kind of dirty there."

TOM HANEY: "It looks different?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Yeah."

TRIP DEMUTH: "Okay. Describe how it looks different."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Well, the one that John had was slick black, you know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or something."

TRIP DEMUTH: "That's been processed, so it has been changed."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Oh, okay."


In regard to metal baseball bats:

There were two little-league size baseball bats taken in as evidence. They were both found in the yard -- one in plain view and the other one hidden in the bushes. One of them had fibers from the basement carpet on it. The Ramseys say the bats were kept in the garage, not the house.

Aluminum bats also weigh about 2 pounds (the same as the MagLite) but they are around 32" in length, providing much more velocity when swung.

For instance, if a child batter was using a 2-pound aluminum bat only 12" long (the length of the MagLite) he likely wouldn't be able to hit a baseball beyond the pitcher's mound; but if the 2-pound aluminum bat was 32" long he could hit the ball over the fence for home runs -- over 200 feet away. The longer length of the bat provides much greater velocity when swung.

Therefore, the extreme amount of damage to JonBenet's skull leads me to believe she was struck by a baseball bat, not the flashlight.

BlueCrab
 
Nehemiah said:
We know that Patsy has said before that JB wore black velvet jeans and the white Gap top to the White's. Has she said anywhere that JB wore the black velvet vest with this ensemble? We're back to the clothes again, where I think the answer to this mystery lies.
Click to expand...
Nehemiah,

If you head over to the The Whittling Knife thread and review my post there on page 2.

You should find Patsy suggesting JonBenet wore the black velvet vest.

.
 
Nehemiah said:
Very interesting, Toltec. I wonder if Patsy said "little velvet vest" instead of "dress"? And, I wonder if the vest had these little silver snaps? If so, your theory (and ultimately Dr. Spitz') theory of the marks being from the snaps would be entirely possible.
Click to expand...
First look at the marks on JBR and try to imagine these are made by snaps from a dress. Not a chance.

Second it is impossible for JBR to have been murdered or even attacked in her bed. Taken from her bed maybe but not injured. Why?

The pineapple in JBR's system suggests she ate pineapple at some time late that evening. Hard to eat with a hole in your skull or rope around your neck.

The good doctor although well qualified proves nothing. The cord could of been placed around her neck first then the blow to the head was delivered and the cord pulled tight.

I don't really think it matters anyway. He offers no proof that the flashlight is the murder weapon. It's only his opinion. And you know what they say about opinoins. And the flashlight found on the KC as far as I know has never been claimed by the R's as thier own.
 
BlueCrab said:
TRIP DEMUTH: "Okay. Describe how it looks different."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Well, the one that John had was slick black, you know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or something."

TRIP DEMUTH: "That's been processed, so it has been changed."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Oh, okay."

In regard to metal baseball bats:

There were two little-league size baseball bats taken in as evidence. They were both found in the yard -- one in plain view and the other one hidden in the bushes. One of them had fibers from the basement carpet on it. The Ramseys say the bats were kept in the garage, not the house.

BlueCrab
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply BlueCrab.

So - as far as you are concerned the Maglite is irrelevant to the murder investigation. Is that correct? It was just a Maglite belonging to the Ramseys that was sitting on the kitchen bench at the time?

The baseball bats - which one had the basement carpet fibres on it - the one in the yard or the one in the bushes?

I don't suppose they tested the bats for anything else?
 
aussiesheila said:
Thank you for your reply BlueCrab.

So - as far as you are concerned the Maglite is irrelevant to the murder investigation. Is that correct? It was just a Maglite belonging to the Ramseys that was sitting on the kitchen bench at the time?

The baseball bats - which one had the basement carpet fibres on it - the one in the yard or the one in the bushes?

I don't suppose they tested the bats for anything else?
Click to expand...


aussiesheila,

No, I didn't say the MagLite was irrelevant. I said that, IMO, the MagLite wasn't the murder weapon. However, the fact that someone apparently had removed the flashlight from the drawer in the wet bar and the fact that the light had no fingerprints on it, nor on the batteries, is interesting. It suggests someone had used the flashlight in the murder. A neighbor reported he saw strange lighting coming from the Ramsey's kitchen area late that night, which was likely someone using the flashlight.

I don't remember which bat had the carpet fibers on it; I think it was the one found behind the bushes near the basement's bathroom window sill.

BlueCrab
 
Who breaks into a house to kidnap a child & doesn't bring the already written ransom note, weapon and their own flashlight?

Unless the perp broke in sometime much earlier , got bored , found a flashlight, then decided to stick around and to pass the time decided to write a note.....plan a kidnapping, changed his mind yet again after writing the note and murdered the child in the house?
 
Cyril Wecht seemed to think the head injury came close to or at the time of death.

There was an eight inch fracture in the skull but only about 2 tespoons of blood in the surrounding tissue.
He believes the garrote pinched a certain nerve that would cut of her heart and lung function. For all intensive perpouses she would have appeared dead. No pulse no breathing.
Then she also had hemorrohging asciociated with what is known as shaken baby syndrome. As if some shook her ruffly attempting to get her to come around.
Then they hit her in the head with the heavy flashlight or golf club.
By then time she was hit in the head herheart was either stopped or stopping. Hence the lack of bleeding in the head.

One scenerio Cyrl had was she was being molested by John or Burke and Patsy walk in on this. In her attempt to get John or Burke off JonBenet, she accidlently clubs her own child she was hoping to defend.

Now she has moved from defender to accidental murder and crime witness. To save her and John or Burke from parts in the crime the stage a cover up.
 
Becba said:
Cyril Wecht seemed to think the head injury came close to or at the time of death.

There was an eight inch fracture in the skull but only about 2 tespoons of blood in the surrounding tissue.
He believes the garrote pinched a certain nerve that would cut of her heart and lung function. For all intensive perpouses she would have appeared dead. No pulse no breathing.
Then she also had hemorrohging asciociated with what is known as shaken baby syndrome. As if some shook her ruffly attempting to get her to come around.
Then they hit her in the head with the heavy flashlight or golf club.
By then time she was hit in the head herheart was either stopped or stopping. Hence the lack of bleeding in the head.

One scenerio Cyrl had was she was being molested by John or Burke and Patsy walk in on this. In her attempt to get John or Burke off JonBenet, she accidlently clubs her own child she was hoping to defend.

Now she has moved from defender to accidental murder and crime witness. To save her and John or Burke from parts in the crime the stage a cover up.
Click to expand...
Wow, I have never considered this but it sure would answer a lot of questions wouldn't it? Makes sense to me...if such a thing can ever make sense.
 
BlueCrab said:
For instance, Spitz contradicts himself about the petechial hemorrhages on JonBenet's eyelids by saying she was alive when the ligature was pulled tight around her neck, causing the petechial hemorrhages, but then says she died from the blow on the head. JonBenet was alive when that ligature around the neck was pulled so tight that it sunk into her skin, which Spitz admits, so common sense says the ligature ended JonBenet's life by strangulation.
Click to expand...
If you read carefully what Spitz said, you will see that he does NOT say that the blow to the head caused JB's death. He merely says that the blow came first. There is certainly a distinction to be made between which came first and which caused death even though it may be one and the same...
 
It is extremely important which came first...the head blow or strangulation.

With the head blow coming first...then the killer would have to have been in a rage...impulsively picking up the first weapon they see (flashlight) and striking her.

With the strangulation first...then the killer was playing some type of sex game with no intention of real harm.

And if the strangulation made JonBenet lose conciousness...then why strike an unconcious little girl over the head?
 
Toltec said:
It is extremely important which came first...the head blow or strangulation.

With the head blow coming first...then the killer would have to have been in a rage...impulsively picking up the first weapon they see (flashlight) and striking her.

With the strangulation first...then the killer was playing some type of sex game with no intention of real harm.

And if the strangulation made JonBenet lose conciousness...then why strike an unconcious little girl over the head?
Click to expand...


You have covered the real reasons that so many people are still scratching their heads and sleuthing on how and or why this happened at all, after nearly 9 years.

Toltec, your thought "
With the strangulation first...then the killer was playing some type of sex game with no intention of real harm. here would indicate that the person with an alibi in place could have been the murderer, and explain WHY the alibi person thought the perp should be forgiven right outta the box. It could also defer to the young boy as well. It would clearly show a reason for the cover up ransom letter, to protect the family, to protect the son, to protect the father and keep him from losing yet another child to this madness.


Your other thought Toltec, "With the head blow coming first...then the killer would have to have been in a rage...impulsively picking up the first weapon they see (flashlight) and striking her." could have had the same end result, the cover letter, the saving of (here are the choices for saving) BDI, JR, JAR.

TO add, IF IF the flashlight was kept in the KC drawer, where was the funny stuff EA happening ?, when the wielder of the flashlight came upon them. Surely the wobbling light from the flashlight would have heralded the coming of the person who landed the deadly blow, and given the perp an opportunity to escape the blow. I do think the blow most likely was delivered when all was thought to be lost for any recovery of JonBenet.

The mystery continues, it is never ending, imop.


.
 
BlueCrab said:
The only board certified forensic pathologist who examined the marks on JonBenet in person, Dr. John Meyer, has stated the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries. All other medical experts, except Werner Spitz, agree the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries. Spitz is winging it because all he has seen are the crime scene photos of the marks, so how does he know if the marks are stun gun burns or abrasions from pebbles or snaps? He doesn't.

I'll go with the the only expert who examined JonBenet's injuries in person, John Meyer, and most of the other experts, and say JonBenet was likely stungunned.

BlueCrab
Click to expand...

I disagree...if Meyer thought they were consistant with stun gun injuries he would be legally compelled to add an amendment to the autopsy report and correcting the marks from "abrasions" to "burns".

They were not burns and he has made this very clear on numerous occassions.
He was NOT a "board certified forensic pathologist" at the time he examined JonBenet.
 
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