NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#29

Rational said:

Welcome to the forum and I hope you will enjoy your time here.

Please do not take my comments personal they are not, but I do take issue with TM being painted as a victim.

A victim is someone who either was unaware of the circumstances leading to the event, someone who is not party to the undermining of a marriage. As I see it, this this not apply to TM. She lent him significant sums of money, probably thinking that this somehow would strengthen their illicit bond. From reports in the MSM she is in fact he one being owed most of the money by GBC. Again these debts were due on 30 June 2012. She reignited the affair (again as reported by the MSM) in Dec 2012. Photo's of both of them at NGB and NGB place after the floods, playing happy families, were posted on OW's Facebook page.

She had GBC email her under an alias of Bruce Overland that he be with her on 1 July (one day after the loans were due for repayment). She knowingly was going to attend he same conference as Allison, and demanded he tell her that she would be there.

So all IMO she was a critical player in not only undermining Allison's marriage and the children's future, but even more so in building and contributing to the massive tension and circumstances that led directly to Allison's murder.

All IMO

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The murdered Allison's diary entry where she wrote something along the lines of 'did she ever say she felt bad that you were married'' puts it in perspective.

Blue Bottle said:

I know my views aren't the most popular here about this, but I agree with what you have said about TM. It's easy for others on the oustide (be it family, friends or strangers), to judge other people's actions and come to conclusions based on one's own morals and ethics. I'm sure I do it too, in fact, I know there are times I do. lol..

If that was me as the cheated wife as in this case Allison was, I personally wouldn't bother trying to save the relationship (children or not) because I see no point in persuing a person who obviously no longer cares or loves me. I couldn't be arsed with all the intrigue nor spend my life and energy with a bloke who obviously no longer sees me as his sole companion. What good can come out of trying to 'force' someone to love and care for you exclusively I think to myself.

I see it that, if I do chose to try to work on such relationship where he had another woman in his life, then I also take the risk that things may not work out as I expect (want) them to.

You can lose trust in seconds, but to get it back it has to be earnt and that can take a lifetime if ever, depending on what it is about. By the same token, I wouldn't trust a man I was having an affair with if he was married because well... if he can cheat on his wife or partner, then he could just as easily cheat on me too if I ended up with him.

I agree, noone is responsible for another's actions and thoughts.

Monogamy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I actually think, IMO, that GBC benefited from staying with Allison on his terms and for his desired timeframe i.e. life insurance/superannuation. I guess this would only apply to this case if it was in fact premeditated murder, which is still uncertain for now. I just wonder who in the relationship was really trying to hold things together, at least temporarily, and what the motivation to stay together actually was. For instance, if there was a potential financial gain to be made in the short term, a person may draw out the relationship even if it is not what they wanted.

Not suggesting this is what GBC was doing, but just may provide another option to Allison been the only one with motivation to hold the marriage together.

I think that TM has assisted police, I think that was the point of the information being in the press, to let GBC know she was turning on him.

I am prepared to cut her a lot more slack because a) she didn't kill anyone and b) she wasn't cheating on someone, but with someone. And aside from appearing to help police, the other two things we do know, she expected GBC to be ending his marriage and she was concerned about being at the same place as Allison, so it doesn't seem she is without conscience. I am wondering if rather than GBC's email being in response to pressure from her, it could have just as easily been him trying to suck her back in, as rumour has it the affair had halted and then resumed.

That said, it certainly brings it home that if you are prepared to act in morally questionable ways, the consequences can be outside of your control. I can't imagine how she is suffering and she could have prevented, if not a similar story unfolding with a different mistress, at least her own piece in it.

Majenta said:

Are you women serious? My god when did men become possessions as soon as they are married? Two people take vows when they choose to marry.. No one else does.. If a man chooses to break these vows and not forsake all others then it is his choice and it WONT be prevented by insecure women overprotecting there husbands by condemning and vilifying other women.. GBC broke the vows, TM didnt break any vows.. Not condoning or critising it just make sure you appropriate blame correctly...

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To GBC, his wife was his possession. But that is an aside.

The only reason we are discussing TM right now is because someone just brought her name into the discussion. If you care to go back you will see we are just as disgusted with GBC's behaviour in the affair. No-one here is blaming TM and excusing GBC.

As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?

It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.

However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.

The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.

BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.

In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....

We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?

ozazure said:

I think that TM has assisted police, I think that was the point of the information being in the press, to let GBC know she was turning on him.

I am prepared to cut her a lot more slack because a) she didn't kill anyone and b) she wasn't cheating on someone, but with someone. And aside from appearing to help police, the other two things we do know, she expected GBC to be ending his marriage and she was concerned about being at the same place as Allison, so it doesn't seem she is without conscience. I am wondering if rather than GBC's email being in response to pressure from her, it could have just as easily been him trying to suck her back in, as rumour has it the affair had halted and then resumed.

That said, it certainly brings it home that if you are prepared to act in morally questionable ways, the consequences can be outside of your control. I can't imagine how she is suffering and she could have prevented, if not a similar story unfolding with a different mistress, at least her own piece in it.

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There's a big difference between 'assisting police' and voluntarily going to the police (without having to be asked) with information that may or may not be relevant to the investigation. I realise TM has given statements to the police, and she has, at least in some form, cooperated (based on MSM reports), but my question is (which hasn't been addressed in MSM):

How long it took her to speak with police the first time (i.e. did they meet with her in the first few days), and did SHE approach the police, or did THE POLICE have to go to her. The difference between these two types of meeting are massive in this context, IMO.

Welcome, HeartRuledHead.

HeartRuledHead said:

In no way to I defend the affair itself. I just believe she let her heart rule her head and she made this mistake that she has to live with.

It does not make her a mastermind, accomplice or murderer

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And here we have it, the telltale mess that a genuine psychopath leaves in their wake. I cannot overstate the breadth and width of the devastation which they incur. All sorts of people are victimized in many ways. It is sad but the one way we can trace a psychopath is to sit down with everyone they interact with and enumerate the damage. The signature is heartbreak.
I have no doubt that TM had no idea how a self-centred affair would ruin her life. It goes without saying that Allison suffered most, and her family must carry on somehow through the enormous pain. I am not discounting that Toni had her heart broken too. It is just on a much smaller scale in the scheme of things.

BrissyLass said:

Welcome to the forum


yes she is somewhat of a victim in this mess as have many people have become unfortunatley, no one close to this is ever going to have their "same" life again, the repurcusions of something like this NEVER go away and they reach far and wide

My issue is that yes, she is the "other woman" a single woman, not married, she has no obligtion to anyone ... GBC on the other hand was obvioulsy a rat with not a whole lot of morals and may have been the pursuer, I have no clue who was.....but it is irrelevant really... if he was the one doing the chasing..... IMO, she could have said No. Sadly, that is a mistake that she is going to pay for for a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry long time. But I'm sure that she knows all this now

this is the problem with affairs/greed/arrogance......it rarely ends well, a lot of time not this badly for sure.....but there is not too often that a happy outcome is the result IMO


Cleary you have an association with TM, I can read that in your words, If she is a friend then I'm sorry for how you must be feeling at this time, see, nasty stuff affects LOTS of people *sigh*

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I think it is easy to want to "blame" someone for affairs. It is true that each had an obligation or commitment to their current partners and families. Both were married, both had kids.

I was devastated when my ex was having an affair. I remember leaving my kids in bed one night when I drove out to catch them at it! I remember the pain and guilt that I felt in leaving my kids to do that (I've never done that before or since), but I needed to know.

My ex and his current wife fell in love at a work conference. However, I now reflect on what has happened and realise that they are far better suited to each other. I loved him very deeply, and I think he still loves me, but more like a sister. They have been together 20 years, and no one that I know thinks she is a "better" person, far from it - most of his family and mine can't stand her. She is just a better match for him. I am pleased for him now. I would not have wanted him to stay with me and be unfulfilled. I agree that sometimes when people fall in love it is almost impossible to let it go, especially if it fills a hole in you that you can't even explain. My ex tells me that it is not perfect, but he cannot be without her. They are two halves of a whole. He didn't feel that with me. I understand it completely. The fallout for the kids was excruciating, but they would have lived with a cranky and difficult father if he had stayed. Who knows how much worse that would have been.

My ex stayed in the house (separate rooms) for a year because his lawyer advised him to do so (he didn't want to lose ANY money and didn't want to have to pay maintenance). I finally convinced him to leave and live with his girlfriend. He wanted his cake and wanted to eat it too so I had to issue an ultimatum (glad mine didn't result in a murder!). He is also a little bit narcissistic (although nothing like GBC) so money was a big issue for him. He saw all our money and assets as his. I think that is the problem for GBC too, however, half of nothing is nothing. He was probably more worried about having ALL of the debt.

I have sympathy for TM. I'm sure she is riddled with guilt, especially if she DID issue an ultimatum, which by the way, I would think is NATURAL. Anybody would look for some end to a clandestine situation - it is very uncomfortable. Not safe for the party who is waiting. She will be her own punishment...she will not easily forgive herself.

DrWatson said:

As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?

It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.

However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.

The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.

BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.

In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....

We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?

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BBM - not in my human nature Do love some of your posts, though!

I just can't muster up any sympathy for TM at all, sorry... She could have backed off and waited for a divorce and thought about the 3 lil baby girls and ABC. While I agree with others, doubt GBC would have hooked up with her anyway (unless she had lots of money) given he had other flings going on. I don't think she is responsible for his deceision but feel in my heart she played a part in what happened via emotions, words or whatever.

Hawkins said:

it The strongest evidence of that is usually a diagnosis which occurs very soon after the act in question. Although you need a referral to a private psychiatrist, rather than one which is court appointed, such a referral can be obtained (and an appointment) very quickly in some circumstances.

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Hawkins said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mouse detective
So Hawkins - do you think in addition to getting a lawyer on day 1, GBC found himself a psychiatrist?
Time will tell.

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Hmm! Perhaps that's the 'psychiatrists Brisbane West' who he googled..?

ozazure said:

I think that TM has assisted police, I think that was the point of the information being in the press, to let GBC know she was turning on him.

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I think this is spot on...... :twocents:

Strangeworld said:

There's a big difference between 'assisting police' and voluntarily going to the police (without having to be asked) with information that may or may not be relevant to the investigation. I realise TM has given statements to the police, and she has, at least in some form, cooperated (based on MSM reports), but my question is (which hasn't been addressed in MSM):

How long it took her to speak with police the first time (i.e. did they meet with her in the first few days), and did SHE approach the police, or did THE POLICE have to go to her. The difference between these two types of meeting are massive in this context, IMO.

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It may have taken her a while to come to the realisation that this wasn't a missing person - she knows the marriage is rocky, god knows what GBC said about Allison's mental state, she might have genuinely thought Allison might go missing of her own accord. Like the poster who has been involved with the BC's, she wrote of coming to a slow realisation that GBC might be responsible ... I think it is normal to assume the best if you know the person. I imagine TM might have a lot of resistance to seeing her lover that way.

So if it took them several meetings for it to sink in, I don't think that means she was trying to protect him. She may have been sharing information about her dealings with him while thinking he was innocent, because why wouldn't you? Unlike GBC she wouldn't have known there was a reason to lie like he did about the facetime calls. So they could be approaching her versus her seeking them out - and she may have been cooperating fully.

Ultimately it seems she gave up a lot of information, far more than the BC seniors have, and none of it very flattering to herself. She is prepared to expose her own role in this tragedy. So far the BC seniors are not co-operating. So while I am not going to invite TM around to my house for dinner with my hubby, I think she is a lot less of a dubious character than many others in this mess.

DrWatson said:

As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?

It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.

However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.

The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.

BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.

In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....
We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?

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Not all men think as you do. When it comes to fidelity, I believe there are 3 type of men.

1. Those that are happily married and the thought to have an affair would never cross their mind.
   
2. Those that are not happily married but still the thought to have an affair would never cross their mind. They would end their marriage before starting a new relationship.
   
3. And then the rest... Those that actively seek out other relationships whilst married.

My ex BIL was from group #3. I suspect that GBC is aswell.

DrWatson said:

As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?

It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.

However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.

The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.

BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.

In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....

We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?

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Thank you, Dr. Watson, you've stated beautifully what I believe and hope to have in my marriage as well.. otherwise, I'd be thinkin' you're kinda cute..

Strangeworld said:

There's a big difference between 'assisting police' and voluntarily going to the police (without having to be asked) with information that may or may not be relevant to the investigation. I realise TM has given statements to the police, and she has, at least in some form, cooperated (based on MSM reports), but my question is (which hasn't been addressed in MSM):

How long it took her to speak with police the first time (i.e. did they meet with her in the first few days), and did SHE approach the police, or did THE POLICE have to go to her. The difference between these two types of meeting are massive in this context, IMO.

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all good questions that I want the answers to as well and perhaps that information will come out down the track

and just on that point, sort of....the report in MSM about the other two mistresses that GBC had that TM knew nothing about?

Why is it that TM and her escapades with GBC were so prominent in the newspapers, but there has been nothing about the other two????

ozazure said:

It may have taken her a while to come to the realisation that this wasn't a missing person - she knows the marriage is rocky, god knows what GBC said about Allison's mental state, she might have genuinely thought Allison might go missing of her own accord. Like the poster who has been involved with the BC's, she wrote of coming to a slow realisation that GBC might be responsible ... I think it is normal to assume the best if you know the person. I imagine TM might have a lot of resistance to seeing her lover that way.

So if it took them several meetings for it to sink in, I don't think that means she was trying to protect him. She may have been sharing information about her dealings with him while thinking he was innocent, because why wouldn't you? Unlike GBC she wouldn't have known there was a reason to lie like he did about the facetime calls. So they could be approaching her versus her seeking them out - and she may have been cooperating fully.

Ultimately it seems she gave up a lot of information, far more than the BC seniors have, and none of it very flattering to herself. She is prepared to expose her own role in this tragedy. So far the BC seniors are not co-operating. So while I am not going to invite TM around to my house for dinner with my hubby, I think she is a lot less of a dubious character than many others in this mess.

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That's a really good way of putting it. I'm just so uncertain about TM at this point. Guess I will have to wait to see if more detail comes out at the next hearing. Whilst my feelings about those who become involved with married people are strong and unwaivering, I still have questions about TM's involvement in this case - not necessarily in terms of Allison's murder directly, but her associations with GBC/B-C's before and after the event, as well as her motives in becoming a witness for the prosecution.

Lu-Lu said:

Hmm! Perhaps that's the 'psychiatrists Brisbane West' who he googled..?

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That is what I thought his angle might be too.

Opinionsgalore said:

From my understanding when reading MSM, a former female colleague was interviews by QPS very early in the investigation and the general consensus is that it was TM. If this is so, had the questioning taken place before or after investigating GBC's hard drive and phone ? If it was before, can we assume TM volunteered the information ?


IMO
JMO
MOO

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Looks like Police first spoke to TM on 25 April according to this article

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226338602877

LostSock said:

Actually these threads are to discuss the crime.
I tend to ignore posts I disagree with but I have become disenchanted with the amount of venom fellow Aussies will throw at each other if someone has a different view. You can't get to the bottom of anything unless you look at every angle.

This was an interesting thread to follow at the start but getting to exclusive now, so I will say goodbye to all, thanks for the insights and giggles.

Not aimed at the poster quoted just a general observation.

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Poignant and timely post. This started off as a thread about a crime and a victim. The line that separated sleuthing the crime, and making it personal, as seems to be on any Aussie forum (I’m on a few), disappeared threads ago.


There is still much more to be discussed about the crime.

For those who don’t like the opposite view (and I don’t necessarily take it in this case), need to look at form an analytical point of view. Until something is proven, you have to test your hypothesis (best guess). The devils advocate approach continually tests what you know, what you think and what you want to know more about. You need to ask, how else could it have happened? In this case, I cant see any other option but the accused. There are so many holes in his story that you cant believe otherwise. And i am with the majority here in thinking this.

This is not to say you cant have an opinion without getting shot down. Counter arguing an opinion is a much more measured and appropriate approach, than taking the emotive stance and blasting others for sharing that view.

TM is a fool and guilty of adultery, and nothing more at this stage.
As for EBC not visiting her son (assumed), she may have her whole family ripped apart and be completely free of any knowledge. If this is the case, I do feel for her. if not, well that’s another thought.

This site is about the crime and the victim, nothing more.

The talk of facebook, 7 page spreads in the news, people spotting for salacious purposes denigrates the basis for what this site is set up for.

I hope and pray that her family, especially her kids never have to read any of these threads and are kept away from it.

The police have a job and I think are doing he best they can.