GUILTY AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #6

Bobbisangel said:

This child murdered two people...one being his own dad....in cold blood. He lay in wait for them to come home from work and shot them one at a time...even calling Tim to come into the house so he could murder him. This boy is not normal. There is something wrong with him even though people don't want to admit it because he is so young. Normal kids don't do things like plan to murder their dad and his friend for no reason except that he was upset with his dad over homework.

I personally don't think that this is the last time we will see this boys name in the paper. It may be years from now but I don't think this will be the last time. Murder doesn't seem to affect him...not even murdering his own dad. That says sociopath to me and yes they come in all sizes and ages. Just glad he isn't my next door neighbor.

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I totally agree Bobbi. What justice has really been given if this kid just walks away like it never happened? I don't think it is anything to do with vengeance at all and even the Romans who have suffered tremendously due to the acts of this kid, do not want vengeance but they do want some semblance of justice. I think they deserve that just like anyone else who has lost a loved one in this cruel horrible manner.

I think the Romans family wants this kid to have mandatory treatment in a detention facility where he can be treated thoroughly. You are so right, no matter who tries to say this kid is "normal" is denying the fact that no normal kid this age plans and premeditates two murders. That is why this kid is in a league of his own in the first place and why this case made national headlines. In Tanya's impact statement she even says she has been told by those who know, that all the evidence points to this kid. With that it makes his interview even more chilling to me.

Tim's daughter, iirc, even expressed if this boy just walks away it is like saying "it was okay"(paraphrasing) and it is not okay and never will be. This kid isn't some youngster who did petty nonviolent crimes. He murdered two people in cold blood in one of the most cold and calculating cases I have read about in the past 20 years and as we watched him create his elaborate lies it was obvious that the murders did not bother him one bit. I truly believe this boy has psychopathic traits (conduct disorder) which would explain why he just doesn't care about what he has done. He may try to mimic remorse but imo that is just a manipulation game he uses when he knows he needs to appear a certain way around those who are keeping him out of detention.

imo

Bobbisangel said:

I have written and read aloud a victim impact statement too. I had several pages because I wrote how the murder had affected my 4 yr old granddaughter, my mother who was in her 80"s, and myself. I spoke to the judge and I spoke to the killer himself. The judge just let us go and we said everything that we wanted to say. There were no strict rules about what we could say and what we couldn't and I really appreciated that. After waiting for 8 years to see him caught I think the judge figured we deserved to say what we wanted. It really helps with the healing process. And you are right...it is all about our feelings, loss, how we have been affected and our desire for justice for our loved one. No one should criticise anyones victim impact statement because it comes from the heart and that heart is hurting.

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UBM:

Not for the first time in the discussion of this case, I feel like I have wandered into an alternate Websleuths universe where it is considered okay to belittle the statements of murder victims.......truly, this boggles my mind.

I'll say again as I have said before - I am on the side of the child who has committed these murders (IMO) in that I don't want him behind bars either.

However, anyone who is in this child's "court," so to speak, but is unable to appreciate and empathize with the level of pain the Romans feel has completely let go of the many nuances of this case in favor of simply blindly defending this child. This helps no one, least of all the child. IMHO, it actually harms the efforts being made to protect this child and get him help.

trofanji said:

Just for satisfying vengeance feelings?
I have compassion for the Romans and I can understand their feeling’s!
But I can’t find any sense in locking away a 9 year old child.

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Not vengeance, but he should actually have some punishment for the murders. A Christmas in juvie is a mild punishment for what he did. Right now I suspect he has learned nothing, as he is living with Mommie and most likely the reason he murdered in the first place. It's more like he is rewarded for his acts. He needs treatment, but some time in juvie might be some reality therapy.

southcitymom said:

UBM:

Not for the first time in the discussion of this case, I feel like I have wandered into an alternate Websleuths universe where it is considered okay to belittle the statements of murder victims.......truly, this boggles my mind.

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I'm with you on that one.

colette said:

Not vengeance, but he should actually have some punishment for the murders. A Christmas in juvie is a mild punishment for what he did. Right now I suspect he has learned nothing, as he is living with Mommie and most likely the reason he murdered in the first place. It's more like he is rewarded for his acts. He needs treatment, but some time in juvie might be some reality therapy.

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You think the reason he murdered is because he is living with his mommie?

sdn8tv said:

You think the reason he murdered is because he is living with his mommie?

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I think having his mother basically abandon him for years only to breeze back into his life recently before the murders didn't help.

I think he thought living with her would be fun, and he could do whatever he wanted.

IF I am right....he was rewarded for murdering two men. How horrid would that be?

sdn8tv said:

You think the reason he murdered is because he is living with his mommie?

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Yes I do think he murdered his father so he could live with his mother. He had just finished his visit with her and she had left the state. I think with Daddy out of the way, he could be with Mommie.... motive for murder. Tim was collateral damage, and a witness. Then lie, lie, lie.

Bobbisangel said:

This child murdered two people...one being his own dad....in cold blood. He lay in wait for them to come home from work and shot them one at a time...even calling Tim to come into the house so he could murder him. This boy is not normal. There is something wrong with him even though people don't want to admit it because he is so young. Normal kids don't do things like plan to murder their dad and his friend for no reason except that he was upset with his dad over homework.

I personally don't think that this is the last time we will see this boys name in the paper. It may be years from now but I don't think this will be the last time. Murder doesn't seem to affect him...not even murdering his own dad. That says sociopath to me and yes they come in all sizes and ages. Just glad he isn't my next door neighbor.

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So all this was about 'homework'? Were has that been stated as fact?

'murder their dad and his friend for no reason' How do you know this?

How do you know how this boy has been 'affected'?

Yet another 'internet psychologist' that has figured out the entire case and what caused this tragedy... and on top of that what is exactly wrong with what was an eight year old boy at the time. :doh:

Maybe if this case had been handle properly in the first place, without the release of the video (everyone here knows that was not proper procedure) and the poisoning in the public... the real root of the problem could have been found, the boy could have received the treatment he obviously needs...
without all the crap that has gone on in this case.

This entire mess has been a complete CIRCUS.

*One question for you that condemn the kid for what happened? IF (repeat IF) (repeat IF again) charges had been immediately filed by the boy's lawyers, mom or grandmother concerning severe abuse in that household would any of you feel any different about what happened??? Please answer honestly.

dgfred said:

So all this was about 'homework'? Were has that been stated as fact?

'murder their dad and his friend for no reason' How do you know this?

How do you know how this boy has been 'affected'?

Yet another 'internet psychologist' that has figured out the entire case and what caused this tragedy... and on top of that what is exactly wrong with what was an eight year old boy at the time. :doh:

Maybe if this case had been handle properly in the first place, without the release of the video (everyone here knows that was not proper procedure) and the poisoning in the public... the real root of the problem could have been found, the boy could have received the treatment he obviously needs...
without all the crap that has gone on in this case.

This entire mess has been a complete CIRCUS.

*One question for you that condemn the kid for what happened? IF (repeat IF) (repeat IF again) charges had been immediately filed by the boy's lawyers, mom or grandmother concerning severe abuse in that household would any of you feel any different about what happened??? Please answer honestly.

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No, I wouldn't feel differently.

It was the cold calculating way he carried out the murders. There is something very seriously wrong with this boy.

Linda7NJ said:

No, I wouldn't feel differently.

It was the cold calculating way he carried out the murders. There is something very seriously wrong with this boy.

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At least you are honest about your opinion.

I agree if what has been described as happening IS correct, it was indeed calculating.

If something is 'seriously wrong with this boy' I guess you think he was born with this 'wrongness'. For me I don't think that was the case, I see a much more complicated scenario going on there.

Linda7NJ said:

No, I wouldn't feel differently.

It was the cold calculating way he carried out the murders. There is something very seriously wrong with this boy.

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There does seem to be a calculated manner here. The hardest piece of the puzzle for me is Roman - there is no indication that Roman harmed this child, so he was either killed because he was a witness or he was collateral damage....either scenario is kind of chilling. The thought of Roman being called inside by the child to be shot (and that's the way I interpret the facts we know) is awful.

That said, an 8-year-old child is a young, young child. I'm incapable of "giving up" on a child that age as unchangeable or of favoring putting a child that age in prison where he would only learn to become a more accomplished criminal.

I agree that something is seriously amiss with a child who could make the choices this one made. Only time will tell if he can be helped emotionally. I think of the James Bulger case in England. Those two young boys were released from prison at 18 and have not gone on to re-offend thus afar (that we know of, of course) and the crime they committed was one of the worst I know about.

I hope this boy is getting intensive therapy. I believe he is having some real sadness about the consequences of his actions - particularly as concerns the loss of his father. I also believe that the brain of an 8-year-old boy is, for all intents and purposes, not much emotionally brighter than the brain of a toddler.

For all who don't know about the Bulger case

here is a link about the case and how it was handled

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

A Quote from the above link

"The European Court case led to the new Lord Chief Justice, Lord Woolf, reviewing the minimum sentence. In October 2000, he recommended the tariff be reduced from ten to eight years, adding that young offenders' institutions were a 'corrosive atmosphere' for the juveniles"

So the murderers of James Bulger did serve 8 years?

imo

oceanblueeyes said:

So the murderers of James Bulger did serve 8 years?

imo

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Yes. The boys committed the crime when they were 10 and were found guilty at trial when they were 11 and were imprisoned until 18.

That case has always stuck with me.

The boys who killed James were released and considered to be no threat. They were helped in assuming new identities and the press was forbidden to publish anything about them as they entered into their "new" lives.

Yes they did, because England had the lowest age to be tried in Europe. The boy of this case was 8 when it has happened, that’s 2 years below the boys in the Bulger case. I personal don’t think that it is helpful to put children in some kind of prison before they reach the age of around 13.

trofanji said:

Yes they did, because England had the lowest age to be tried in Europe. The boy of this case was 8 when it has happened, that’s 2 years below the boys in the Bulger case. I personal don’t think that it is helpful to put children in some kind of prison before they reach the age of around 13.

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Thank you for the information.

In some states here in the USA there is no age listed on who can be tried for murder.

Chris Pitman was 12 years old when he brutally murdered both of his grandparents by shooting them in the head and burning the house down around them. He received 30 years and all appeals thus far have been denied.
SC is one of those states that does not list a cut off age.

imo

oceanblueeyes said:

Thank you for the information.

In some states here in the USA there is no age listed on who can be tried for murder.

Chris Pitman was 12 years old when he brutally murdered both of his grandparents by shooting them in the head and burning the house down around them. He received 30 years and all appeals thus far have been denied.
SC is one of those states that does not list a cut off age.

imo

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I just want to ask you wherefore is it good to jail a kid such a long time? I know there are 13 year olds serving LWOP sentence and they are going to send an 12 year old to LWOP also, if the judge decided to leave the kid into adult court. In November 2008 they would send CR also to adult court when it has happened.
That both boys in the Bulger case are rehabilitated is a clear sign that children can be rehabilitated. And the Bulger case is of course one of the worst cases.

trofanji said:

I just want to ask you wherefore is it good to jail a kid such a long time? I know there are 13 year olds serving LWOP sentence and they are going to send an 12 year old to LWOP also, if the judge decided to leave the kid into adult court. In November 2008 they would send CR also to adult court when it has happened.
That both boys in the Bulger case are rehabilitated is a clear sign that children can be rehabilitated. And the Bulger case is of course one of the worst cases.

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It isn't about what I want or what I think. Just because rehabilitation works for some does not mean it works for all and just because the Bulger murderers haven't re-offended yet is no assurance that will continue throughout their lives either. Juveniles are no more clones of each other than adults are. Just look at the new thread started where a kid of 16 raped, disemboweled and murdered a little 5 year old girl. Even his own parents don't want him to be paroled. So no, not ever juvenile should just go their merry way once reaching 18 years old imo.

Imo, it is up to the court system who tries each individual case based on the laws within their state. With this kid being the youngest known at 8 for double homicide I am not surprise that he will do no time.

But 8 years for what they did to that poor little defenseless James B doesn't seem like an unfair sentence at all to me. I am sure the parents of James thinks it is totally unfair though.

imo

oceanblueeyes said:

It isn't about what I want or what I think. Just because rehabilitation works for some does not mean it works for all and just because the Bulger murderers haven't re-offended yet is no assurance that will continue throughout their lives either. Juveniles are no more clones of each other than adults are. Just look at the new thread started where a kid of 16 raped, disemboweled and murdered a little 5 year old girl. Even his own parents don't want him to be paroled. So no, not ever juvenile should just go their merry way once reaching 18 years old imo.

Imo, it is up to the court system who tries each individual case based on the laws within their state. With this kid being the youngest known at 8 for double homicide I am not surprise that he will do no time.

But 8 years for what they did to that poor little defenseless James B doesn't seem like an unfair sentence at all to me. I am sure the parents of James thinks it is totally unfair though.

imo

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In the Bulger case the boys are prosecuted within the juvenile law not in the juvenile court. Some people liked to lock them away forever so the government plead for a much tougher sentence, the boy's get 15 years but the European human rights court challenged that sentence and the boys were released based on their good rehabilitation after 8 years. There is no guarantee that they didn't reoffend, nor there is prove that any other individual won't kill or offend someone. Both boys have the chance to get productive. Did they deserve it? From the victims family view I think no, from the view of the law yes because they changed their attitude and with that they are rehabilitated.
About fairness, I don't think that the victim's think it's fair, not in the Bulger case and not in this case,I think never can a court satisfy a victim within a modern law. So here we speak about children and not adults, children can make once very bad choices, but IMO children deserve a good second chance. If they don't try to rehabilitate children they missed a chance. If you put an 13 year old away for 30 years, that's not a second chance, that's a nearly 100% guarantee that the former kid will soon be back after release
I'm personal sure that CR will have a good chance for his future and I'm pretty sure that he will take it.

IMO

The Bulger case is different from this case because the 2 boys acting together probably would not have murdered on their own indepentently, but together they were toxic. I would think there would be a better chance for rehabilitation in that case.