Evidence subject to Frye - *UPDATED* 2011.05.09 (ATTN: ALL ORDERS IN!)

I sure hope that CA used chloroform to clean the car and that ICA's verdict hinges on, among other things, high levels of chloroform leading others to believe sweet Caylee was sedated. When the doctor was testifying, I was sitting near CA and immediately had an intuitive thought that CA's actions would be the downfall of ICA after all.

This is my big question--how could ICA drive her car with high levels of chloroform and not have some symptom or effect from it??????

'Beach said:

CHEERS!!!​

Dear HHJP, ​

We would like to recover from the hangovers before May 9th.
Please file the rest of the Orders at your earliest convenience so that we may have time to recuperate.​

With much respect, gratitude and love,​

Your WS friends and admirers.​

:heartbeat:, :gavel: and :HHJP:​

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So!! I have been checking the news every 15 minutes for the last week - and this afternoon I was forced to go to a lengthy client meeting - stagger back and what do I find???? My poster friends having a BIG party without me!arty:

Here's what I have to say about that!!! :giggle:

Well for starters........:fireworks: and ....:skip::skip::skip::skip::skip:

AND - er.....ummmm...Beach...My glass is empty????:great: :Banane59:

bookworm474 said:

This is my big question--how could ICA drive her car with high levels of chloroform and not have some symptom or effect from it??????

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The only explanation for that I can think of is that she drove with the windows down at all times. Plus, the smell would have been (more) horrid if the windows were not down. I don't think it was CA cleaning out the car because of the computer searches for chloroform done by ICA prior to Caylee going missing.

Amil said:

I sure hope that CA used chloroform to clean the car and that ICA's verdict hinges on, among other things, high levels of chloroform leading others to believe sweet Caylee was sedated. When the doctor was testifying, I was sitting near CA and immediately had an intuitive thought that CA's actions would be the downfall of ICA after all.

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The irony is rich!!!!

LolaMoon08 said:

I think the single most important reason for the chloroform being allowed in is that it proves that this was premeditated.

I still do not understand why or how the chloroform was used (I'm not convinced that it was used to subdue Caylee before murdering her?). I do know that it is not an accident that searches were done on "chloroform" and "how to make chloroform" and then massive amounts of chloroform were found to be in the trunk of Casey Anthony's car. The same trunk where a body was decomposing (cadaver dogs, testimony about the smell, and possibly the air samples)... and that the body that was decomposing in the trunk of that car was in fact Caylee Marie Anthony (hair banding).

It all ties in together and I am really happy that the jury is going to be able to decide for themselves how it all adds up. I have no doubt that they will all come to the same conclusion as the majority here... that Casey murdered Caylee... not only intentionally, but that is was planned and carried out.

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I do not understand this either, especially if high readings were found. To me it also goes back to some type of cover-up, to blame this phantom nanny or whoever else could have taken Caylee other than the accused. I look at it this way, imo, the duct tape, the chloroform, the purse in the car and all the other little etc's., it is almost as if some type of set-up was going on to blame anybody else even an unknown person IF the car was stolen from Amscot as the kidnapper. Just seems alot of things were placed to sway attention off of this family-in their mind, but it didn't work, just made it worse. Imo, I think Caylee died in the home and the rest; tape, chloroform, decomp was 'used' to support the kidnapper theory. Don't be angry about the decomp I mentioned, I mean it doesn't seem to me Caylee was in the trunk for a long length of time and then ica found her and the uh oh happened. I think she unfortunately was in there 2, 3 days at the most for sad to say transportation purposes.

Reflecting (and rejoicing with you all) on all this evidence being allowed. Reinforces for me the feeling I've had all along that HHJP was being overly lenient with the DT (maddeningly so, for many of us) because he *KNEW* this stuff was all coming in. God love him!

BigMomma said:

I do not understand this either, especially if high readings were found. To me it also goes back to some type of cover-up, to blame this phantom nanny or whoever else could have taken Caylee other than the accused. I look at it this way, imo, the duct tape, the chloroform, the purse in the car and all the other little etc's., it is almost as if some type of set-up was going on to blame anybody else even an unknown person IF the car was stolen from Amscot as the kidnapper. Just seems alot of things were placed to sway attention off of this family-in their mind, but it didn't work, just made it worse. Imo, I think Caylee died in the home and the rest; tape, chloroform, decomp was 'used' to support the kidnapper theory. Don't be angry about the decomp I mentioned, I mean it doesn't seem to me Caylee was in the trunk for a long length of time and then ica found her and the uh oh happened. I think she unfortunately was in there 2, 3 days at the most for sad to say transportation purposes.

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This scenario certainly shows premeditation! I'm so glad all the evidence is being allowed and the jury will see and hear about all of it.

bookworm474 said:

This is my big question--how could ICA drive her car with high levels of chloroform and not have some symptom or effect from it??????

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This has probably been posted before, but I hope this helps.
I know very little about "chemicals" so I thought I would look it up.


[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform[/ame]

bookworm474 said:

This is my big question--how could ICA drive her car with high levels of chloroform and not have some symptom or effect from it??????

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It wouldn't have affected her because it settles to the ground. No matter if the trunk was opened it had already fixated itself to the carpet where it was concentrated. The gaseous portion had evaporated and the concentrated form had settled. IMO

Chloroform evaporates quickly and in its concentrated gaseous form, it will tend to settle to the ground before dispersing.

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http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemical-profiles/html/chloroform.html

Valhall is in a scientific field and explains it here:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2009/11/09/the-trunk-liner-where-some-real-chloroform-was-found/

bookworm474 said:

This is my big question--how could ICA drive her car with high levels of chloroform and not have some symptom or effect from it??????

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Chloroform is heavier than air. It pools in low places such as the trunk. It does not flow upwards so it would not rise into the passenger compartment or knock people out when they opened the trunk.

:great::genie: "HAPPY DAYS" :genie: :great:

:heartluv: We are starting to hear you loud and clear Caylee..:heartluv:

Amil said:

I sure hope that CA used chloroform to clean the car and that ICA's verdict hinges on, among other things, high levels of chloroform leading others to believe sweet Caylee was sedated. When the doctor was testifying, I was sitting near CA and immediately had an intuitive thought that CA's actions would be the downfall of ICA after all.

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The searches on the computer would have led you to believe that the SA wants it to prove she used it to sedate Caylee. However, that does not agree with how JA said it may have happened. He created a scenario where Caylee was awake and the killer looked right into her eyes, held her down, etc. Ted Bundy used chloroform. Its effect is instant and only lasts about 15 mins.

We know about the chloroform pic on RM's myspace so that may be how Casey became acquainted with the idea of using it on someone back in March. Many posters are amazed at the high level found in the trunk after all of that time. If you read the depo JA did of the DT's bug expert he claims there should definitely be more bugs. On that point he was very adament and even did experiments for it. Is JA going to present the chloroform as coming come from the pesticide sprayers taken in a search of the A's house?

Caylee and chloroform in a trunk are certainly felony murder/felony child abuse eligible for the DP. I'm not sure the state wants that conclusion drawn if they want to show the duct tape as a deliberate, calculated murder. JA and LDB are very good in their questioning, very focused and always leave me unsure the exact info they are extracting and the reasons. A few times I noticed during depos JA had more particular areas of interest when questioning defense experts. He was definitely interested in that bug testimony and experiments. The defense is aware of all the same info from expert witnesses and search warrant info so the state can bring it in that pesticide was used to kill the flies and accounts for the heavy concentration in the carpet. I've sprayed roach spray and it's thick and nasty. Stains and smells up whatever you spray it on. Seems to leave a strong residue for a long time.

Intermezzo said:

bbm
Not only George and Cindy's testimony...add Dr Vass, Yuri Melich, the dogs alerting..

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And.....the hair showing post-mortem root banding and Casey's texts about the smell and dead squirrel. Might be even more but it's late and I am tired.

Eta: Coffin flies.

strach304 said:

The searches on the computer would have led you to believe that the SA wants it to prove she used it to sedate Caylee. However, that does not agree with how JA said it may have happened. He created a scenario where Caylee was awake and the killer looked right into her eyes, held her down, etc. Ted Bundy used chloroform. Its effect is instant and only lasts about 15 mins.

We know about the chloroform pic on RM's myspace so that may be how Casey became acquainted with the idea of using it on someone back in March. Many posters are amazed at the high level found in the trunk after all of that time. If you read the depo JA did of the DT's bug expert he claims there should definitely be more bugs. On that point he was very adament and even did experiments for it. Is JA going to present the chloroform as coming come from the pesticide sprayers taken in a search of the A's house?

Caylee and chloroform in a trunk are certainly felony murder/felony child abuse eligible for the DP. I'm not sure the state wants that conclusion drawn if they want to show the duct tape as a deliberate, calculated murder. JA and LDB are very good in their questioning, very focused and always leave me unsure the exact info they are extracting and the reasons. A few times I noticed during depos JA had more particular areas of interest when questioning defense experts. He was definitely interested in that bug testimony and experiments. The defense is aware of all the same info from expert witnesses and search warrant info so the state can bring it in that pesticide was used to kill the flies and accounts for the heavy concentration in the carpet. I've sprayed roach spray and it's thick and nasty. Stains and smells up whatever you spray it on. Seems to leave a strong residue for a long time.

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bbm

WOW. WOW. That is very interesting. That would make a few things fall right into place. It really makes me think. In some ways the chloroform issues are kind of confusing. Especially as you say, JA has already given his scenario, in which Caylee is conscious and wide eyed.

I have always thought that Casey looked up chloroform and neckbreaking for her parents future deaths, and not Caylees. Besides, she is too lazy to have actually made any chloroform. So pesticides used to kill corpse flies makes much more sense. Because they would not be able to admit to using it s a way to justify the chloroform. WOW. I have to think on this. Thanks.

LolaMoon08 said:

I think the single most important reason for the chloroform being allowed in is that it proves that this was premeditated.

I still do not understand why or how the chloroform was used (I'm not convinced that it was used to subdue Caylee before murdering her?). I do know that it is not an accident that searches were done on "chloroform" and "how to make chloroform" and then massive amounts of chloroform were found to be in the trunk of Casey Anthony's car. The same trunk where a body was decomposing (cadaver dogs, testimony about the smell, and possibly the air samples)... and that the body that was decomposing in the trunk of that car was in fact Caylee Marie Anthony (hair banding).

It all ties in together and I am really happy that the jury is going to be able to decide for themselves how it all adds up. I have no doubt that they will all come to the same conclusion as the majority here... that Casey murdered Caylee... not only intentionally, but that is was planned and carried out.

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The majority of us posting here have not been willing to give Casey credit for actually making the stuff. Thought to be too lazy and unintelligent. When you really think about it though how much effort would she need to make? She had all the time in the world to do it. I would think that a wise person would not attempt it, therefore that too leaves Casey out. Why look up how to make it in the first place rather than how to obtain it first? Go straight to how to make it? Did she know before that she couldn't purchase it or steal it? Maybe she was toting it around in her trunk and even spilled it. We may never know.

katydid23 said:

bbm

WOW. WOW. That is very interesting. That would make a few things fall right into place. It really makes me think. In some ways the chloroform issues are kind of confusing. Especially as you say, JA has already given his scenario, in which Caylee is conscious and wide eyed.

I have always thought that Casey looked up chloroform and neckbreaking for her parents future deaths, and not Caylees. Besides, she is too lazy to have actually made any chloroform. So pesticides used to kill corpse flies makes much more sense. Because they would not be able to admit to using it s a way to justify the chloroform. WOW. I have to think on this. Thanks.

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I really don't think the defense sees it coming. They would have to admit to it to use the garbage as a reason for bugs and needing to spray the trunk but yet she didn't throw the trash away.

The computer searches do show premeditation of sorts but allude to several possibilities. Chloroform isn't really known for being used as a poison but more to subdue then rape, murder, rob, etc. The pc searches does look like that's what she had on her mind and by making it or stealing it she didn't want to leave a trail that would lead back to her. Parents, Caylee or all of them as victims. Who knows with her. She also searched for self defense.

strach304 said:

I really don't think the defense sees it coming. They would have to admit to it to use the garbage as a reason for bugs and needing to spray the trunk but yet she didn't throw the trash away.

The computer searches do show premeditation of sorts but allude to several possibilities. Chloroform isn't really known for being used as a poison but more to subdue then rape, murder, rob, etc. The pc searches does look like that's what she had on her mind and by making it or stealing it she didn't want to leave a trail that would lead back to her. Parents, Caylee or all of them as victims. Who knows with her. She also searched for self defense.

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That is why I thought she needed it more for her parents than for her child. She could quite easily subdue a 2 yr old child, no chloroform needed. But her parents would need to be knocked out first, taken down by surprise.

Solace said:

It absolutely does. Vass spent quite a lot of time on the stand explaining decomposition and its compositon and the fact that there were four chemicals that were found and I remember Baez saying 4 of those chemicals could be anywhere and Vass said, yes but it is the fact that they are found togehter and in this trunk from something that is the size of a foot and a half - not the size of a hamburger.

So, WFTV does not mention decomp - it mentions chloroform, as well as saying this is the first time AIR samples have been used. I would like a more complete explanation myself.

For now, I will take what I can get and chloroform will do. She must have used a huge amount for it to last a month and a half in that trunk because it dissipates. What did she do? make it in the garage sink.

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Hmm. New thought. I wonder if she was making it in the garage and storing it in the trunk? It made me think about the mobile(vehicle) meth labs hidden in the woods that have popped up in recent years. I know there are posters here that did the research on how to make it and if I remember correctly it had to sit and dissolve or something and then the chloroform separated or something. It needed time to process or something IIRC. If she was making it in the garage and storing it in the trunk it's also likely she spilled it.

I wonder if the high content or spillage of chloroform could account for the absence of so many bugs like the DT expert stated there should be many more flies than there were without Casey having used the pesticide. Could it have prevented so many flies from the beginning? Pesticides have a high content of chloroform. Now I really am wondering about that arm and hammer laundry detergent container. Did she store it in that?

LCoastMom said:

(respectfully snipped)

IMO ICA may have been using Benadryl or Dimetapp on Caylee in the evenings so she could go out without CA calling her to come home - but I don't think this had been a regular occurrence. I studied up on the active ingredient in Dimetapp for another case - the half life is 2 hours, so the effects (if not overdosed to death) double, triple, quadruple dosing would be markably reduced in 2 to 6 hours depending on the amount given. 4x the dose would be reduced to 2x in two hours, down to 1x in the next two hours, down to 1/2 dose in the following two hours - reasonable to say the effects would be minimal in the AM, if dosed in the evening prior. (this if I understood what I was reading) - maybe Joypath can drop by and give her opinion.

The down side is the same drug also makes some kids/people hyper. I know with my own DD, given just the recommended dose of either Benadryl or Dimetapp for allergies had equal chance of sleep or insomnia.

JMO

(respectfully snipped)

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O/T a little but I had a comment regarding this post. My 2-year old son recently had an allergic reaction to something and we gave him Benadryl. The doctor advised us not to use more than the dosage for his age/weight and not to use it often because Benadryl supresses the respiratory system. I wonder if something like this may have happened to Caylee.

Back on topic: I'm so happy that things are coming together for the prosecution. Can't wait for sweet little Caylee to finally receive justice.

Now, for the orders on the air samples and the plant growth....:waiting:
Come on HHJP, let me help you with those::denied:

:great:GO TEAM CAYLEE! :great: