AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #4

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I just realized when reading your post that usually we see news clips on people putting up posters. I don't think I've seen anything on this at all.

Putting up flyers, especially in San Antonio, would be tremendously helpful.

We have not heard of any searches either, except for the house that was searched in Nashville.

I really do think LE should start gearing up for some ground searches. At the San Antonio park and within the 3 mile radius of the Victoria phone ping. UNLESS LE is in contact with someone who has baby Gabriel.

Salem
 
Yeah, I think Tammi is pizzed but she can't come out and say that because that would only further implicate her in this whole mess. I think Tammi's little plan blew up in her face and EJ took matters into her own hands and that's why Tammi put her in touch with Janet Morris. Maybe Janet is involved and maybe she isn't but someone handled that adoption and the fact that she has an adoption agency makes her my prime suspect. I don't think Gabriel is dead, I really believe he was adopted and the parents who have him now are going to be devastated when they find themselves right smack dab in the middle of this mess. Their hearts are going to be so broken to have to give him up to his Daddy. They and Gabriel along with Logan are the true innocents in this and I hope anyone and everyone else involved gets a lengthy prison sentence.


It is not illegal to suggest that maybe the best way to avoid losing custody is to leave. Tammie's plan has definitely blown up in her face! What Elizabeth did after she left that house really cant implicate Tammie in anything unless she knows where Gabriel is and is lying about it now or when police first questioned her. But game over when police knock on the door she has nothing to gain by being quiet now. Even if she initially lied, she could have made a deal to tell what she knows and avoided any charges probably. I really think she doesnt know what Elizabeth really did do. Tammie is not some con artist, her morals and selfishness may be contemptible but she has no reason to destroy her life over a baby she cant have.
 
I am confused about the connection with Texas to begin with... they all live in AZ right?
Yes, they do. But EJ travelled to San Antonio, TX and left her car there before catching a bus bound for Florida. Gabriel was last seen in San Antonio, TX. His car-seat was found in EJ's abandoned car. There might not be any connection if EJ didn't really find a new couple to adopt him there and did like she told Logan, killed him instead.
 
I can only speculate. But if TPS honestly believed that Logan was abusive to EJ or Gabriel, then I can see her believing that if she can't have him, placing him with somebody else would be in his best interest.

It appears to me that as of Dec 26 & 27, she thought she could have him. She was trying to get Logan to sign the papers, trying to get Eliz to come to her with Gabriel, having people call Eliz to tell her to come back to Tammi and to go to the custody hearing on Dec 28.

Her first interview, after Eliz was arrested, sounds to me like she thought she could have Gabriel.

That's how it looks to me. When do you believe she came to believe she couldn't have Gabriel? What, to you, made her think she couldn't have him?
 
I just realized when reading your post that usually we see news clips on people putting up posters. I don't think I've seen anything on this at all.
That's what I'm wondering. I've seen news articles coming out of Arizona, but who in Texas is going to be paying attention to them? If Gabriel really was handed off to somebody there, they might not even know who he is. So that led to my curiousity.
 
Yes, they do. But EJ travelled to San Antonio, TX and left her car there before catching a bus bound for Florida. Gabriel was last seen in San Antonio, TX. His car-seat was found in EJ's abandoned car. There might not be any connection if EJ didn't really find a new couple to adopt him there and did like she told Logan, killed him instead.

Maybe her intention really was to go to Mexico as she said she was leaving the country. Maybe she got half way there and realized how crazy of an idea that was and then decided instead to just abandon the baby and the car and start over in Miami. CSI makes it look like a nice fun place. lol
 
BBM
I don't think the adoptive couple, if there is one, are innocent. I doubt that Gabriel was put up for adoption with a traditional agency. They would have to know that what they are dealing with isn't on the up and up. And even if they haven't heard any of the news about the missing baby I am sure that someone around them has and would have pointed it out to them. I just can't see how someone would magically get a baby handed to them from the heavens and not question where it came from and if it was legal.
I don't think she just miraculously found a nice couple in a park who took Gabriel. If he is alive and with someone now, I believe it was all arranged beforehand. Or it could be just as likely that she did harm him. :(
 
are they supposed to be on NG again tonight? TS was on FB all day today and then she just signed off like a half hour ago, thought maybe she might be headed to the show? Anyone know..
 
If she did give him away to another couple through the same channels that you think TS sent her... dont you think she would be a bit angry that she gave the baby to someone else? TS's only motive to help Elizabeth is that she might eventually have the baby herself. By now I would think she would have turned on her and told all she knows. It is clear if Gabriel is ever found neither of them will ever see him again. And worse... This will definitely harm her chances of ever adopting another child!

No, I don't agree... I think she is part of a network whether formal or informal and maybe connected to religion. I suspect there is a lot of back scratching going on.

I am not as willing to let the Smith's off part of the hook so easily because I can't find an explanation for all their lies, obsfucation, obstruction, media mongering, and lack of concern for other parents. One of her own daughters isn't buying her stories. Her ex says we don't really know what she is about. The father of the baby they adopted says they were deceitful. People online are chastising her for being unethical.

I believe in Occam's Razor, but any theory has to still take into account what is known. At the least, I think they pushed Elizabeth and probably engaged in some illegal activity. I don't think she cared as much about Gabriel being theirs as being somebodies besides Elizabeth - like I said, it could be back scratching, it could also be that she is playing god and think she is better able to decide who should be the parents of a child than the courts. I suspect she is supporting more unethical surrogacy and adoption than just Gabriel's, whether directly making money off it or not.
 
Maybe her intention really was to go to Mexico as she said she was leaving the country. Maybe she got half way there and realized how crazy of an idea that was and then decided instead to just abandon the baby and the car and start over in Miami. CSI makes it look like a nice fun place. lol
I don't see her having any maternal instincts toward Gabriel and I doubt if Mexico was in her plans it wouldn't have included Gabriel. I think the whole point of leaving was to make sure Logan never got the baby, even if it meant killing him. And yes, Miami is about as far away as she could get from Arizona and still be in the warm sun (well, except for the last few days!!).
 
No, I don't agree... I think she is part of a network whether formal or informal and maybe connected to religion. I suspect there is a lot of back scratching going on.

I am not as willing to let the Smith's off part of the hook so easily because I can't find an explanation for all their lies, obsfucation, obstruction, media mongering, and lack of concern for other parents. One of her own daughters isn't buying her stories. Her ex says we don't really know what she is about. The father of the baby they adopted says they were deceitful. People online are chastising her for being unethical.

I believe in Occam's Razor, but any theory has to still take into account what is known. At the least, I think they pushed Elizabeth and probably engaged in some illegal activity. I don't think she cared as much about Gabriel being theirs as being somebodies besides Elizabeth - like I said, it could be back scratching, it could also be that she is playing god and think she is better able to decide who should be the parents of a child than the courts. I suspect she is supporting more unethical surrogacy and adoption than just Gabriel's, whether directly making money off it or not.

OK, I will consider that when you can tell me anything logical that points to some underground network. They are not exactly listed in the phone book, and if this friend in TN had those connections they would have found Tammie her extra baby by now. She never would have needed to bother wwith Elizabeth and then the little complication of Logan.
 
are they supposed to be on NG again tonight? TS was on FB all day today and then she just signed off like a half hour ago, thought maybe she might be headed to the show? Anyone know..
Nancy Grace doesn't do "live" shows on the weekends. :)
 
Please help me to understand why Tammi would have gone, almost in an instant, from obsessively seeking a baby for herself, to facilitating that baby going to someone else?

I can't get there. I can't see what would have suddenly made her change her mind. And I don't see a change of mind in any of her actions or statements until yesterday or the day before when she said she didn't think adopting Gabriel was going to be possible.

At what point do others see Tammi changed her mind, and what happened that she changed it?

TIA

I don't know Bean, what I see is that she was following up on many many options online. Like I said... I don't think this ever had to do with just one baby. If she finally got a baby... then what would her life be about if that is the case? Or would there then be the search for a brother or sister for the two babies they have? Why was she searching so relentlessly for one easy option? I just can't find that plausible either.
 
That's what I'm wondering. I've seen news articles coming out of Arizona, but who in Texas is going to be paying attention to them? If Gabriel really was handed off to somebody there, they might not even know who he is. So that led to my curiousity.

Someone who lives in San Antonio posted yesterday (sorry I don't remember who) that it was all over the news there. I live in Houston and haven't seen it on the news, but I don't watch local news every evening and night so I could have missed it.
 
I don't see her having any maternal instincts toward Gabriel and I doubt if Mexico was in her plans it wouldn't have included Gabriel. I think the whole point of leaving was to make sure Logan never got the baby, even if it meant killing him. And yes, Miami is about as far away as she could get from Arizona and still be in the warm sun (well, except for the last few days!!).

I agree on her lack of maternal instinct. Many factors that contributed to that aside from PPD I am sure and that doesn't excuse what has happened. (I know you were not suggesting it did.) What I mean was that sometimes when people are angry they get these brilliant ideas, they seem so logical and then they plow full steam ahead only to realize at the last minute how hairbrained it really is. That's when you suddenly realize youre now at a loss of what to do to get yourself out of this mess, so you drive around and eventually you come up with a new plan. Usually its a smarter one but not always.
 
I can only speculate. But if TPS honestly believed that Logan was abusive to EJ or Gabriel, then I can see her believing that if she can't have him, placing him with somebody else would be in his best interest.

And this illustrates my problem with the so-called Underground Railroad for Abused Children.

I don't know anybody involved with the Underground - not even sure if it really still exists - but the people who would be participating are making these life-determining decisions. They don't sound like they would be the most stable people in the world.

DCF has its problems but I'd sure trust them before I'd trust these alternative justice types.

No offense, jmo.
 
Someone who lives in San Antonio posted yesterday (sorry I don't remember who) that it was all over the news there. I live in Houston and haven't seen it on the news, but I don't watch local news every evening and night so I could have missed it.
Thanks so much :) I'm glad to see that. Hopefully several media markets in TX are covering Gabriel's disappearance. Who knows, if he's alive, someone may just pay attention.
 
I agree on her lack of maternal instinct. Many factors that contributed to that aside from PPD I am sure and that doesn't excuse what has happened. (I know you were not suggesting it did.) What I mean was that sometimes when people are angry they get these brilliant ideas, they seem so logical and then they plow full steam ahead only to realize at the last minute how hairbrained it really is. That's when you suddenly realize youre now at a loss of what to do to get yourself out of this mess, so you drive around and eventually you come up with a new plan. Usually its a smarter one but not always.
I completely understand what you're saying here! And I wouldn't think at her age that she put a lot of forethought into anything, as shown by her past behavior of trashing the apartment, and so forth. Running away probably sounded like a good idea until she was actually on the road with an 8 m/o unhappy, crying, hungry baby that she really didn't care for to begin with. MOO
 
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