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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    There are nowhere near trial yet.
    That is obvious, and there may NEVER be a trial. However, if the defense is requesting the records at this point, the prosecution also must move to prepare themselves ahead of time. They can not wait and run out and try to do that AFTER the trial begins. In the long run, there is probably a high percentage chance that several, if not all, of these kids will make plea bargains after numerous trial date delays.

    JMO

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    There are nowhere near trial yet.
    So...we can't talk about the trial then since it's not happening for months...??
    "She read about people she could never be, on adventures she would never have. Life was good enough until one day it wasn't. She wanted more..."

    "A time comes when silence is betrayal."
    - Martin Luther King

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by raeann View Post
    That is obvious, and there may NEVER be a trial. However, if the defense is requesting the records at this point, the prosecution also must move to prepare themselves ahead of time. They can not wait and run out and try to do that AFTER the trial begins. In the long run, there is probably a high percentage chance that several, if not all, of these kids will make plea bargains after numerous trial date delays.

    JMO
    One would think prosecution would preparing ahead of time regardless of whether defense requests information or not.
    Also, I presume that just because defense requests information does not mean they will get it. The judge will rule whether it's relevant or not. I would think that if the judge rules it's not relevant then defense will not get it.
    Last edited by jjenny; 04-10-2010 at 03:41 PM.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    I would think abuse of power should apply to an adult in position of power such as teacher, counselor, etc, not to another minor even if that minor is described as a "flirt."
    I posted the reasons in #175. It was a lot more than just the "flirt" ID.

    Bottom line: We can agree to disagree on this one, and please do PM me if there's another case, because we might well agree on it. I'm usually not supportive of the DAs on these charges.

    I also think sex offender registry laws are messed up, and they should draw a clear distinction between types of offense, in all cases. In this case, I expect that will be the worst these boys have to deal with, unless/until the law is fixed, as it should be.

    Other than that, the law says "up to" life in prison wop, but it doesn't require it. I'm going to wait and see what penalty they are given before I protest in their defense. Until then, I'm just happy they weren't given a complete pass.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    One would think prosecution would preparing ahead of time regardless of whether defense requests information or not.
    Also, just because defense requests information does not mean they will get it. The judge will rule whether it's relevant or not. If the judge rules it's not relevant then defense will not get it.
    They are and have been preparing the prosecution...the point of the article being referenced was the fact that the defense request would open the door for some alternative approaches. I am quite familiar, as are many here, with defense requests, the fact that judges rule on motions etc. That is not even remotely close to what the issue is here, those types of requests are made and receive judicial decisions in every case. The issue, once again, is the indication that the defense is heading toward a 'blaming the victim' defense posture.

    Everyone's opinion has value here, no matter whether their inclination is to excuse the behavior as "kids will be kids", or whether they feel outraged by the actions toward Phoebe. Those of us with a background in legal areas will see things differently than those who have been the victims of bullies, and those people will see things from a different view than someone who more closely identifies with those who are accused. That is what makes this forum interesting.

    jmoo

  6. #201
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    I am going to post my piece... which may ruffle some feathers. I'm sorry if it does, but it's my opinion on the matter. You don't have to continue reading if you don't like it and if you feel the need to respond and be snarky, likewise, I don't have to continue reading. Again, this is simply my opinion.

    I do NOT condone what these children have done. They HAVE harassed someone and intimidated someone, those things being against the law, let them face the consequences. One thing that I feel is being overlooked, as much as many people don't want to say it, is that they are still teenagers and children themselves! I know enough adults that harass and intimidate others. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that the fact is being overlooked.

    I believe that there may have been a couple of underlying problems in this situation. I believe that Phoebe may have been homesick, for the obvious reasons and beyond. I also believe that she was deeply distraught over the fact that some of the harassment came from two former boyfriends?

    I also have to wonder if Phoebe and her parents were not aware of their rights and alternatives. Phoebe could have continued to put up with the crap as many often do. Her parents also could have home schooled her through traditional means or through distance learning. They could have contacted the school superintendent and the police sooner. That however, is where I am a bit confused, because some reports give the impression that her parents did not know of the harassment until it was too late, and some where else I believe that I read that they had spoken to the school about the matter previously.

    Suicide is not a normal reaction to name calling, pushing, and shoving. I along with many others were treated on an equally despicable scale for years on end. If I had a penny for each time I had been called a whore, slut or any other inappropriate name... For each time that people simply teased me about my first name, kicked in the face or punched, shoved, had things thrown at me or knocked from my hands, for every inappropriate sexual comment, inappropriate touch, or every penis that I had flashed at me.... I could easily put myself through college on it. I never once considered suicide and neither did many others. My home life wasn't great and I had no friends other than whoever I may have been dating at the time. However, I hadn't just recently arrived from another country. And yes, I even faced harassment due to the racial composition of my family. The harassment didn't stop at school.. Neighborhood kids quite often stole things from my home, illegally entered my family's property, and at one point even spray painted the side of the family home. I simply did not express to them my anger, would smile or blow kisses at them, make a witty comeback, and move on with my life and allow karma to take its course. When the harassment started coming from two particular school staff members, I took control of the situation.

    I have to say that it is not the fault alone of the bullies. Again, I DEFINITELY do not approve of what has happened by means, but there were alternatives and Phoebe alone made the ultimate decision to take her life. As horrible as some may take this to be, did she not have proper coping skills? This kind of behavior continues throughout life unfortunately... We have employers who treat employees like crap and get away with it because the law only protects certain groups of people. We have neighbors that treat each other like poo. There are far worse things in the world than being called nasty names and hit and wished dead. Is it possible that she suffered from depression or anxiety before these events occurred... maybe even being depressed from the turnover in her romantic relationships?

    Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyan View Post
    I am going to post my piece... which may ruffle some feathers. I'm sorry if it does, but it's my opinion on the matter. You don't have to continue reading if you don't like it and if you feel the need to respond and be snarky, likewise, I don't have to continue reading. Again, this is simply my opinion.

    I do NOT condone what these children have done. They HAVE harassed someone and intimidated someone, those things being against the law, let them face the consequences. One thing that I feel is being overlooked, as much as many people don't want to say it, is that they are still teenagers and children themselves! I know enough adults that harass and intimidate others. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that the fact is being overlooked.

    I believe that there may have been a couple of underlying problems in this situation. I believe that Phoebe may have been homesick, for the obvious reasons and beyond. I also believe that she was deeply distraught over the fact that some of the harassment came from two former boyfriends?

    I also have to wonder if Phoebe and her parents were not aware of their rights and alternatives. Phoebe could have continued to put up with the crap as many often do. Her parents also could have home schooled her through traditional means or through distance learning. They could have contacted the school superintendent and the police sooner. That however, is where I am a bit confused, because some reports give the impression that her parents did not know of the harassment until it was too late, and some where else I believe that I read that they had spoken to the school about the matter previously.

    Suicide is not a normal reaction to name calling, pushing, and shoving. I along with many others were treated on an equally despicable scale for years on end. If I had a penny for each time I had been called a whore, slut or any other inappropriate name... For each time that people simply teased me about my first name, kicked in the face or punched, shoved, had things thrown at me or knocked from my hands, for every inappropriate sexual comment, inappropriate touch, or every penis that I had flashed at me.... I could easily put myself through college on it. I never once considered suicide and neither did many others. My home life wasn't great and I had no friends other than whoever I may have been dating at the time. However, I hadn't just recently arrived from another country. And yes, I even faced harassment due to the racial composition of my family. The harassment didn't stop at school.. Neighborhood kids quite often stole things from my home, illegally entered my family's property, and at one point even spray painted the side of the family home. I simply did not express to them my anger, would smile or blow kisses at them, make a witty comeback, and move on with my life and allow karma to take its course. When the harassment started coming from two particular school staff members, I took control of the situation.

    I have to say that it is not the fault alone of the bullies. Again, I DEFINITELY do not approve of what has happened by means, but there were alternatives and Phoebe alone made the ultimate decision to take her life. As horrible as some may take this to be, did she not have proper coping skills? This kind of behavior continues throughout life unfortunately... We have employers who treat employees like crap and get away with it because the law only protects certain groups of people. We have neighbors that treat each other like poo. There are far worse things in the world than being called nasty names and hit and wished dead. Is it possible that she suffered from depression or anxiety before these events occurred... maybe even being depressed from the turnover in her romantic relationships?

    Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.
    I think you bring up some interesting points. I don't necessarily agree though. Everyone here has been called names, but i think they reason there is a case against these kids is that it went BEYOND normal bullying. She was made to feel physically threatened.

    And how would you judge ones strength? Obviously there is normal bullying, and extreme cases of torment and stalking (not Phoebes case specifically). But in a court, would you have to set a standard that is the "normal" level of ones ability to cope, and if someone is less than that standard, then more blame lies on outlying factors? Or would outlying factors (such as history of depression), would those work against the defendants or in favor of them. One could argue that she was weaker, but one could also argue that depression is a type of illness or disability, then that opens up a whole new set of circumstances...

    Hm...I don't think i explained myself very well...I guess I'm just not quite sure how this all works or how it will play out. i would love to hear a lawyers take on this.

    But like I said, interesting analysis. I'm not sure I agree, but it is one angle to look out, and may very well be one that plays out in court.
    "She read about people she could never be, on adventures she would never have. Life was good enough until one day it wasn't. She wanted more..."

    "A time comes when silence is betrayal."
    - Martin Luther King

  8. #203
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    Suicide is what someone does when they believe they are a nothing. Worthless. Have absolutely no redeemable factor in their life or for others. Their life essence is racked in pain and they believe they cannot be fixed on any possible level. To remove their pain, to remove what they believe is truth by the action, lack of actions, the words, or the lack of words, they take their lives by their own hands. No one will miss them. Why would they? These victims of suicide remove themselves from this earth because they are nothing and everyone would be better off with them gone. That is their truth at that moment...

    Ms Prince attended this school for only 3 months before she took her life. It was riddled, 7 days a week, via at school, texting, and computer. Not "harmless" pranks, but vicious attacks towards her. She literally just turned 15 years old in mid November. How does a young teen suppose to have coping skills when they are just coming into the this next part of their lives? They do not have them yet. Only time teaches. What she learned in her young teen time was she was a nothing. Peer pressure is horrible enough without the severe ugliness that so many, like Phoebe, endure.

    imvho
    Last edited by OrdinaryLife; 04-10-2010 at 04:30 PM. Reason: Add last sentence to first paragraph to be clearer...
    "I went to the bank and asked to borrow a cup of money. They said, "What for?". I said, "I'm going to buy some sugar".

  9. #204
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    Is it possible that she was examined in her lady bits to tell if she was still a virgin or not? I mean I know it's certainly possible right?

  10. #205
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    Cyan, I can see the logic in what you are saying. But here is where my view may be a bit different.

    If you have a group of ****s that make a practice (and 3 months would be making a practice)...of, say, shoving people to the street. Maybe people usually get up...some more bruised and hurt than others...but they get up.

    If one day, they shove a heart patient to the ground and that person dies...by our law, they would be responsible for that death.

    It's regrettable that civility, or moral values or common decency does not stop vile behavior. But those who practice vile behavior must be held accountable IMO...even if their victim has some underlying problem that contributed.

    If that heart victim in mt analogy had not be brutally shoved, chances are he would not have died. If Phoebe had not been relentlessly bullied, chances are she would not have taken her life.

    The bullying was without question making her life "unbearable." That cannot be dismissed in the equation. Therefore, the perpetrators must be held accountable.


  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaddupYo View Post
    Is it possible that she was examined in her lady bits to tell if she was still a virgin or not? I mean I know it's certainly possible right?
    I am positive there was a complete autopsy done and results in ME records.
    "I went to the bank and asked to borrow a cup of money. They said, "What for?". I said, "I'm going to buy some sugar".

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrdinaryLife View Post
    I am positive there was a complete autopsy done and results in ME records.
    Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

    I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaddupYo View Post
    Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

    I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?
    I would assume so, but I'm no MD. I leave those results up to the experts. As far as others personally involved with hanging, I have to say no. I do not believe so.

    imvho
    "I went to the bank and asked to borrow a cup of money. They said, "What for?". I said, "I'm going to buy some sugar".

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsorcha View Post
    So...we can't talk about the trial then since it's not happening for months...??
    I've been talking about the potential ANS trial for 4 years...lol...and it STILL hasn't happened. Talk on, Buddy...
    Last edited by Paladine; 04-10-2010 at 04:49 PM.


    In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

    Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    Cyan, I can see the logic in what you are saying. But here is where my view may be a bit different.

    If you have a group of ****s that make a practice (and 3 months would be making a practice)...of, say, shoving people to the street. Maybe people usually get up...some more bruised and hurt than others...but they get up.

    If one day, they shove a heart patient to the ground and that person dies...by our law, they would be responsible for that death.

    It's regrettable that civility, or moral values or common decency does not stop vile behavior. But those who practice vile behavior must be held accountable IMO...even if their victim has some underlying problem that contributed.

    If that heart victim in mt analogy had not be brutally shoved, chances are he would not have died. If Phoebe had not been relentlessly bullied, chances are she would not have taken her life.

    The bullying was without question making her life "unbearable." That cannot be dismissed in the equation. Therefore, the perpetrators must be held accountable.
    I never said DON'T hold them accountable. I was simply saying that I don't believe it was the SOLE/ONLY factor in the matter is all.

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