Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate

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Let's continue discussion from the [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80908]evidence against accident thread[/ame]. The conversation is good the debate is lively but the thread is too long.
 
Okay, I just want to reitterate that when I saw heard Jb that day after court talking to reporters, and answered a question to Kb about the woods. He said, Kc was not in those woods, your in lala land. That sealed it for me, even the defense does not believe it was an accident. I can not imagine an accident with cover up and someone else helping.

JMO It was not an accident that was caused by Kc Neglect. That does not mean it was not an accident caused by Zanny or someone else. IMO
 
The shooting down comment was a joke..I dont take anything anyone does or says that seriously here. As far as long time member I have been here for over a year I have read plenty of information and joined when I just could not ignore all that was being said. The clothes was the topic of a thread a while back and no one I know has any valuable information to dicount any idea that one comes up with as there was no conclusion. Theories are just that until Casey's day in court, everyone has ideas about how it should or should not play out and all of them are valuable to open ones mind. So no worries here just throwing em out there to see what comes up. I think she is responsible in every way I just dont have a clear path and curiosty gets the best of me.
 
For me the best evidence against an accident theory: The defense isn't even remotely pursuing it. JB & Co. have thrown spaghetti at every wall they can find but they haven't even come close to suggesting it was an accident. They have attacked RK, JG, many other witnesses and all the evidence in this case. They are trying in desperation to prove that the body was placed while Casey was in jail. Everything about this defense says they are going to attack the evidence, it's collection, and the experts. They are trying to cast reasonable doubt by saying it wasn't Casey but someone else. Who also had access to Casey's home, car, child, and personal belongings I might add.

For me if the defense felt an accident theory was plausible they would have pursued it long ago. An accident theory would be a no-brainier excuse, one that would have Casey on trial for neglect or at worst manslaughter as I don't believe Fla has negligent homicide (I could be wrong on that). For me it's the defenses positioning in this chess game that I feel is the greatest evidence against an accident theory. In fact if I recall the first DP lawyer JB had on the case was wanting to suggest an accident and his theory was turned down by JB as a plausible defense.
 
notthatsmart said:
Okay, I just want to reitterate that when I saw heard Jb that day after court talking to reporters, and answered a question to Kb about the woods. He said, Kc was not in those woods, your in lala land. That sealed it for me, even the defense does not believe it was an accident. I can not imagine an accident with cover up and someone else helping.

JMO It was not an accident that was caused by Kc Neglect. That does not mean it was not an accident caused by Zanny or someone else. IMO
Click to expand...

I was like "wow!" I agree with NTS on something.....and then I read the last sentence. lol So yes other then that part I completely agree with you.

:D
 
"The life of a celebrity, huh? Right. If only I were old and ugly, then they wouldn't care. Sad that those words have come from people in the media, not just me." Quote from one of the letter KC wrote to RA around the time Caylee was found.

This quote sounds very strange in a revealing way to me. KC thinks of herself as a "Celeb" but feels if she were old and ugly no one would care. Does she not realize people only care about the way her child died and that she continues to cover it up? This is all about covering up a crime which is intentional. With all the evidence out there if it were an accident what would she be waiting for? If it were really an accident why would you want to blame someone else and have an innocent person be charged with murder & given possible DP sentence. Would that not make KC reasponsible for the death of another person? Do you think her attorneys may have explained this to her or do they just not care? JMO
 
notthatsmart said:
Okay, I just want to reitterate that when I saw heard Jb that day after court talking to reporters, and answered a question to Kb about the woods. He said, Kc was not in those woods, your in lala land. That sealed it for me, even the defense does not believe it was an accident. I can not imagine an accident with cover up and someone else helping.

JMO It was not an accident that was caused by Kc Neglect. That does not mean it was not an accident caused by Zanny or someone else. IMO
Click to expand...

But which one????

ZFG #1 = Sawgrass fame??
Zanny #2 = JBP fame??
Zany #3 = Letter "Real Zany" fame?? You know the one she forgives and KC claims had nothing to do with the death of her child. Funny because she admits not having contact with Zany since the last time she saw her but KNOWS Zany did not kill her child.....so who would that leave.....I believe that would be Ms. Rock * Star Celeb herself. JMO
 
If it comes out there was that argument that turned physcial on June 15, 2008, I'm inclined to believe it was an intentional act done out of rage!

If it doesn't, I'm still inclined to believe it was an intentional act to get back at CA. We've read about their love/hate relationship, we've heard GGM state, she thought Inmate Anthony hated CA more than she loved Caylee, jealousy is another factor in Caylee's demise.

I also believe TonyL's statement of wanting boys not girls when he has children, pushed Inmate Anthony into this further. I think she is no different than Susan Smith but I give SS credit for coming clean.

I can't get past not alerting authorities for 30 days, I can't get past her dumping her car at Amscot with the smell of death. I can't get past Inmate Anthony's cavalier attitude in finding Caylee, she didn't lift one leg to look for her. Her Bella Vita tattoo practically admitting to her new life with no child in tow. How she seemed to flourish after Caylee's alleged abduction. Her demeanor is not one of a mother who misses her child, no tears for Caylee only herself.

Any way you look at Caylee's demise, I feel it was intentional!

JMHO

Justice for Caylee
 
Her attorneys were hired for one purpose: To refute any case the State makes against KC. They do not have to find the responsible party. They just have to cover KC's butt. They play by KC's rules and she will not cop to an "accident". Her goal is to have ZERO culpability...and I mean ZERO. The only way for that to happen is "some other dude did it" and that would make it murder. Her attorneys will not see it as an accident because they can't. They have to follow their client's request to present the whole kidnap scenerio, complete with handover to babysitter (as per her reasoning, as insane as it is, for not calling 911).
 
I believe it was an accident. I also believe that Casey freaked out after. I am not an expert in mental health, but I honestly believe after Caylee died she "snapped".

When I look at the pictures of Caylee with her Mother (and the rest of the family) I see love. I see nothing but love. I see Caylee loves her Mother. She doesnt seem to fear her in videos or pictures.

When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.

I look at the statements of her friends that suggest at a certain point in time something started being NOT "right" with her. That she would deny things had happened when they had.These people KNOW Casey better then any one looking in from the outside.

When I look at where the cadaver digs hitting on scent in the backyard, it tells me Caylee was dead inside the back yard beside the pool and in the playhouse.

When I add in the FLURRY of calls to her Mother etc it tells me she was FREAKING out. If planned she would have had no reason to freak.

When I read Caysees own writings (texts,emails,chats), I see that her daughter came first. I am sure this was hard at times being so young, but I dont think she wanted a "new life", as much as some here seem to suggest/think.

Personal Story

When I was 16/17 I used to babsit for my Mother. My youngest sibling was a newborn. The next in line was a toddler. At lunch one day I set the bassinet with baby on the table to feed her. The toddler went running for the other room. I followed in hot pursuit, more worried about the one with moving legs then the one who couldnt move. As I picked the toddler up, I heard a big THUD from the dining room. Although I knew the baby wasnt even sitting up yet, I knew that noise was indicative of a MAJOR problem. As I came running back into the kitchen with toddler on my hip, I saw the baby on the floor. I ran so fast to pick her up, the look on her face was horrifying!!! She was SCREAMING but no noise was coming out! I picked her up and held her close. I was so panicked it still brings me to tears, and I feel bad even sharing this as it is an admittance of neglect on my own part.

Anyway, I held her so tight I think it caused the scream to come out of her. I stayed with her that entire afternoon so fearful that she wouldnt be ok, after all I was old enough to know about concussions and not allowing sleep. Long story short she WAS and IS ok(14 now and knows the story well...I cry everytime it comes up), but I NEVER told my Mother. Not for a year or more. The way she was lying on that floor she would have had to do a complete flip out of that car seat. She could have very well died form a concussion or cracked skull right then and there, but for some reason God held her and me that day and I have never EVER left a child that young unattended again regardless of it being 30 seconds or less.

I am only relaying this story to point out that I do understand the panic that sets in and the fear of what my Mother was going to say and/or do to me. If she had died, yes I would have called 911(I am pretty sure), but my mental state at that time was horrible. I never felt so horrible in my life! I feared what my Mother (and everyone else) was going to think of me. As an adult now, I am sure I would react differently in the same situation. It doesnt change my reaction in my late teens to "hide" it :(

Must be why she is still the sister I coddle to ...I will feel guilty FOREVER!

Sorry for the O/T....just trying to explain my own rationale for panic setting in and the need to "hide" her neglect (albeit oin a much grander scale then my own).
 
LambChop said:
But which one????

ZFG #1 = Sawgrass fame??
Zanny #2 = JBP fame??
Zany #3 = Letter "Real Zany" fame?? You know the one she forgives and KC claims had nothing to do with the death of her child. Funny because she admits not having contact with Zany since the last time she saw her but KNOWS Zany did not kill her child.....so who would that leave.....I believe that would be Ms. Rock * Star Celeb herself. JMO
Click to expand...

Personally I've always been partial to Zanny#2. Zanny and the Sippycup Gang. Casey missed her opportunity to fund her defense with that one. I could definitely see that one being made into a movie. Directed by Quentin Tarantino and staring Ray Liotta, Steve Buscemi, Harvey Keitel, Joe Pesci, with Eva Mendes as "Zanny" and Alyssa Milano playing "Casey".
 
Astraea said:
When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.
Click to expand...

*snipped by me*

I just wanted to point out that Casey's own grandmother stated she felt Casey hated Cindy more then she loved Caylee (paraphrased). Making a reference that she believed Casey would do something to harm Caylee to get back at her own mother.
 
marspiter said:
Personally I've always been partial to Zanny#2. Zanny and the Sippycup Gang. Casey missed her opportunity to fund her defense with that one. I could definitely see that one being made into a movie. Directed by Quentin Tarantino and staring Ray Liotta, Steve Buscemi, Harvey Keitel, Joe Pesci, with Eva Mendes as "Zanny" and Alyssa Milano playing "Casey".
Click to expand...

My favorite, too. I see KC after Zanny knocks her down, getting up, brushing herself off, straightening out her hair and her clothes, picking up her phone and saying "Now what was that number. 119, 114, 191. Oh wait, I'm supposed to meet TonE for movie night so we can do some serious cuddling. And this does really solve my problem about what to do with my little snothead. And afterall, tomorrow is a brand new day." So tell me, Marspiter, does the story end there? I think KC thought so. JMO
 
I have wondered if the flurry of calls was'nt to try to see how much time she had before someone would be home. If something happened in the backyard intentionally or not (I believe intentionally) she may have wanted to see where they all were in relation to getting home. Every mother or babysitter has a story about a time or two that they felt they did something wrong and harmed a child. You were not negligent just not experienced and how could you be, forgive yourself you were just a child yourself. IMO
 
marspiter said:
*snipped by me*

I just wanted to point out that Casey's own grandmother stated she felt Casey hated Cindy more then she loved Caylee (paraphrased). Making a reference that she believed Casey would do something to harm Caylee to get back at her own mother.
Click to expand...

I am sorry I must have missed where Shirley said that she believed that Casey would kill Caylee. I also hate to say it, but I dont think she was involved with Casey and Caylee enough to have an opinion on that. Not to mention IF Shirley said that, there are an awful lot of other statements from those who WERE involved closely with Casey and Caylee who say the opposite.

I also think that Mothers defend and/protect their children (it is biologically programmed into us after all). I think that Shirley would have a negative view of Casey for many reasons that have to do with HER daughter Cindy, and not necessarily her "own observations".
 
Astraea said:
I believe it was an accident. I also believe that Casey freaked out after. I am not an expert in mental health, but I honestly believe after Caylee died she "snapped".

When I look at the pictures of Caylee with her Mother (and the rest of the family) I see love. I see nothing but love. I see Caylee loves her Mother. She doesnt seem to fear her in videos or pictures.

When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.

I look at the statements of her friends that suggest at a certain point in time something started being NOT "right" with her. That she would deny things had happened when they had.These people KNOW Casey better then any one looking in from the outside.

When I look at where the cadaver digs hitting on scent in the backyard, it tells me Caylee was dead inside the back yard beside the pool and in the playhouse.

When I add in the FLURRY of calls to her Mother etc it tells me she was FREAKING out. If planned she would have had no reason to freak.

When I read Caysees own writings (texts,emails,chats), I see that her daughter came first. I am sure this was hard at times being so young, but I dont think she wanted a "new life", as much as some here seem to suggest/think.

Personal Story

When I was 16/17 I used to babsit for my Mother. My youngest sibling was a newborn. The next in line was a toddler. At lunch one day I set the bassinet with baby on the table to feed her. The toddler went running for the other room. I followed in hot pursuit, more worried about the one with moving legs then the one who couldnt move. As I picked the toddler up, I heard a big THUD from the dining room. Although I knew the baby wasnt even sitting up yet, I knew that noise was indicative of a MAJOR problem. As I came running back into the kitchen with toddler on my hip, I saw the baby on the floor. I ran so fast to pick her up, the look on her face was horrifying!!! She was SCREAMING but no noise was coming out! I picked her up and held her close. I was so panicked it still brings me to tears, and I feel bad even sharing this as it is an admittance of neglect on my own part.

Anyway, I held her so tight I think it caused the scream to come out of her. I stayed with her that entire afternoon so fearful that she wouldnt be ok, after all I was old enough to know about concussions and not allowing sleep. Long story short she WAS and IS ok(14 now and knows the story well...I cry everytime it comes up), but I NEVER told my Mother. Not for a year or more. The way she was lying on that floor she would have had to do a complete flip out of that car seat. She could have very well died form a concussion or cracked skull right then and there, but for some reason God held her and me that day and I have never EVER left a child that young unattended again regardless of it being 30 seconds or less.

I am only relaying this story to point out that I do understand the panic that sets in and the fear of what my Mother was going to say and/or do to me. If she had died, yes I would have called 911(I am pretty sure), but my mental state at that time was horrible. I never felt so horrible in my life! I feared what my Mother (and everyone else) was going to think of me. As an adult now, I am sure I would react differently in the same situation. It doesnt change my reaction in my late teens to "hide" it :(

Must be why she is still the sister I coddle to ...I will feel guilty FOREVER!

Sorry for the O/T....just trying to explain my own rationale for panic setting in and the need to "hide" her neglect (albeit oin a much grander scale then my own).
Click to expand...

Hiding her guilt down the road as far as a death penalty seems a little extreme to me. Is it preferable to be found guilty of murder than guilty of accidently being responsible for the death of your child?
If it was an accident Casey is abdicating responsibility to the extreme.

ps: I believe it was not an accident - Here a SODDI, there a SODDI, everywhere a SODDI SODDI- c'mon!
 
logicalgirl said:
Hiding her guilt down the road as far as a death penalty seems a little extreme to me. Is it preferable to be found guilty of murder than guilty of accidently being responsible for the death of your child?
If it was an accident Casey is abdicating responsibility to the extreme.

ps: I believe it was not an accident - Here a SODDI, there a SODDI, everywhere a SODDI SODDI- c'mon!
Click to expand...

I agree. It seems illogical. I firmly believe that she had a mental break when she realized Caylee was gone (although I think her mental issues were becoming obvious LONG BEFORE). As I said I am not a mental health expert, but reading through all the thousands of pages of statements etc, I have come to the personal conclusion that she does have some mental health issues.

I think the continued story has an awful lot to do with Baez. I think Caysee has been disserviced GREATLY by him! He keeps assuring her everything is going to be fine and she will be found not guilty. I think she should be seeing a psychriatist to be honest and her "lawyer" is more concerned about his "case" then his client!!!!! I also understand that is his job...sadly.
 
If she admitted to an accident she surely would face charges. If she denies any involvement she has a chance. I think that she thinks shes that good, she has no doubt she will prevail you can hear that in her letters. She has gotten away with everything she wanted to in her life. I still dont beleive it was an accident but I could see how someone else might think so and I can see why they may believe she would hide it.
 
Astraea said:
I believe it was an accident. I also believe that Casey freaked out after. I am not an expert in mental health, but I honestly believe after Caylee died she "snapped".

When I look at the pictures of Caylee with her Mother (and the rest of the family) I see love. I see nothing but love. I see Caylee loves her Mother. She doesnt seem to fear her in videos or pictures.

When I read the statements of people who KNOW them, they all say that Casey was a good and loving Mother.

I look at the statements of her friends that suggest at a certain point in time something started being NOT "right" with her. That she would deny things had happened when they had.These people KNOW Casey better then any one looking in from the outside.

When I look at where the cadaver digs hitting on scent in the backyard, it tells me Caylee was dead inside the back yard beside the pool and in the playhouse.

When I add in the FLURRY of calls to her Mother etc it tells me she was FREAKING out. If planned she would have had no reason to freak.

When I read Caysees own writings (texts,emails,chats), I see that her daughter came first. I am sure this was hard at times being so young, but I dont think she wanted a "new life", as much as some here seem to suggest/think.

Personal Story

When I was 16/17 I used to babsit for my Mother. My youngest sibling was a newborn. The next in line was a toddler. At lunch one day I set the bassinet with baby on the table to feed her. The toddler went running for the other room. I followed in hot pursuit, more worried about the one with moving legs then the one who couldnt move. As I picked the toddler up, I heard a big THUD from the dining room. Although I knew the baby wasnt even sitting up yet, I knew that noise was indicative of a MAJOR problem. As I came running back into the kitchen with toddler on my hip, I saw the baby on the floor. I ran so fast to pick her up, the look on her face was horrifying!!! She was SCREAMING but no noise was coming out! I picked her up and held her close. I was so panicked it still brings me to tears, and I feel bad even sharing this as it is an admittance of neglect on my own part.

Anyway, I held her so tight I think it caused the scream to come out of her. I stayed with her that entire afternoon so fearful that she wouldnt be ok, after all I was old enough to know about concussions and not allowing sleep. Long story short she WAS and IS ok(14 now and knows the story well...I cry everytime it comes up), but I NEVER told my Mother. Not for a year or more. The way she was lying on that floor she would have had to do a complete flip out of that car seat. She could have very well died form a concussion or cracked skull right then and there, but for some reason God held her and me that day and I have never EVER left a child that young unattended again regardless of it being 30 seconds or less.

I am only relaying this story to point out that I do understand the panic that sets in and the fear of what my Mother was going to say and/or do to me. If she had died, yes I would have called 911(I am pretty sure), but my mental state at that time was horrible. I never felt so horrible in my life! I feared what my Mother (and everyone else) was going to think of me. As an adult now, I am sure I would react differently in the same situation. It doesnt change my reaction in my late teens to "hide" it :(

Must be why she is still the sister I coddle to ...I will feel guilty FOREVER!

Sorry for the O/T....just trying to explain my own rationale for panic setting in and the need to "hide" her neglect (albeit oin a much grander scale then my own).
Click to expand...

Astraea, thank you so much for sharing your personal story. Your writing made me feel the pain and panic right there with you. I'm very thankful that it seems the only lasting effects this has had is to have made you exceedingly responsible and empathetic. . . a better person.

And this is part of what I was trying to explain in one of my posts from yesterday. That even if it was an accident, Casey didn't just try to hide the event; she put duct tape on her to supposedly simulate a kidnapping. Why? How would this make the story better? I would venture to say that would have never, ever occurred to you to do, had your situation been less favorable. It is just not a true and logical first reaction to an accidental death. And all of her actions after-the-fact are the furthest thing in the world from what I believe a person who had experienced the accidental death of their child would have been. They also don't indicate the actions of a person who has just had her child kidnapped, either.

For me, the tape and her actions for 31 days indicate nothing but guilt. I haven't been able to find one scintilla of her actions or any kind of discovery that I can attribute to sorrow, anguish, contrition or grief. All I have seen is fear for own well-being and a botched attempt at a cover-up.

Besides, she insists it was not an accident.
 
Astraea said:
I am sorry I must have missed where Shirley said that she believed that Casey would kill Caylee. I also hate to say it, but I dont think she was involved with Casey and Caylee enough to have an opinion on that. Not to mention IF Shirley said that, there are an awful lot of other statements from those who WERE involved closely with Casey and Caylee who say the opposite.

I also think that Mothers defend and/protect their children (it is biologically programmed into us after all). I think that Shirley would have a negative view of Casey for many reasons that have to do with HER daughter Cindy, and not necessarily her "own observations".
Click to expand...

Oh there's a lot of information on what Shirley was and was not aware of on other threads here. Cindy visited her parents a lot and Shirley was obviously very much involved in the family issues which is evidenced by Shirley's letters to her sister. True Shirley did not live in the household but it appears it did not stop Cindy from confiding in her mother and making Mom aware of what was going on within the home. This is Shirley's only daughter but clearly Shirley has been very objectively when giving her statements to LE. Probably the only truthful one in the whole bunch. Kudos to her. JMO
 
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