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  1. #1
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    Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info#2

    http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801867/detail.html

    Page 3, third paragraph discusses the covering of the nose and mouth apertures with grayish tape.

    PH, apologies if you were going to post this. Hadn't seen it yet.
    "Defendant had access to the computer and it may be circumstantially inferred that she was the one who conducted the searches in question."
    - Chief Judge Belvin Perry, April 27, 2011


    "Furthermore, the statements are highly relevant, specifically regarding demonstrating conciousness of guilt. Moreover, the probative value of the statements is not outweighed by their prejudicial effect."
    -Chief Judge Belvin Perry, March 18, 2011


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    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65793

  2. #2
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    This thread is to discuss the contents of the Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis Duct Tape Info.





    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85495]Thread #1[/ame]


    Please stay on topic as much as you can. if someone else goes OT, scroll past and ignore. That's it!
    Last edited by JBean; 04-24-2010 at 11:17 AM.

  3. #3
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    I'm still not sure whether the medical examiners/anthropologists meant that the nose was originally covered by the tape (pictures might make this clear during the trial). The prosecution seemed adamant about this in one of the hearings so maybe that is the case. Or maybe the reports only meant that that was the final position of the tape after loss of soft tissue/teeth etc.
    Because it seems like tape that was originally covering the mouth/lips might conceivably cover both the mouth and nose aperture after skeletonization, especially on such a small face. The lips are right below the nose aperture, so if just her mouth was taped you would expect the tape would probably be right at the bottom edge of the nose aperture to begin with (without covering the nostrils), and that's even with the teeth present (and jaws slightly open which is the normal position), I believe. If she was struggling, I would expect her mouth might have been open more than usual because she might be attempting to scream, and after all that could have been the main reason for the taping in the first place. After death when the soft tissues disappear, teeth fall out, the jaws will come closer together or even make contact, and the tape could cover the nose aperture. I'm just guessing here as a non-expert. Not that I rule out the nose being taped also, of course. The duct tape on the mouth did always seem to me to most likely be part of a violent assault, so not a stretch to imagine this kind of perp also causing suffocation by covering the nose, imo.
    There's the mention again of the upper left lateral incisor not being recovered. At least I assume that's what was meant by "only one tooth was lost postmortem". (In earlier docs I think I remember us reading, and discussing, how most of the teeth were detached/found in the soil under the skull and one stuck inside the skull IIRC, with only that one unaccounted for.) I'm still interested in the missing tooth. Thanks for the thread
    Last edited by seagull65; 04-25-2010 at 11:14 PM.

  4. #4
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    it's interesting how this report noted the duct tape was covering the mouth and nasal aperture at that point, but I don't remember any of the earlier crime scene reports mentioning that it was covering the nasal aperture, only the mouth area. Maybe there had been a little shifting by the time it reached the ME's office? It seems like it would be almost impossible to prevent a certain amount of movement of the mandible and the tape when picking up the skull/mandible and during transport. But I'm only guessing. That was why I was so surprised when Mr. Ashton said so vehemently in that one hearing that Caylee had had her mouth and nose taped over, because the crime scene reports had only mentioned tape over the mouth as far as I could remember. (At least the ones that we had seen.)
    Last edited by seagull65; 05-01-2010 at 10:01 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagull65 View Post
    it's interesting how this report noted the duct tape was covering the mouth and nasal aperture at that point, but I don't remember any of the earlier crime scene reports mentioning that it was covering the nasal aperture, only the mouth area. Maybe there had been a little shifting by the time it reached the ME's office? It seems like it would be almost impossible to prevent a certain amount of movement of the mandible and the tape when picking up the skull/mandible and during transport. But I'm only guessing. That was why I was so surprised when Mr. Ashton said so vehemently in that one hearing that Caylee had had her mouth and nose taped over, because the crime scene reports had only mentioned tape over the mouth as far as I could remember. (At least the ones that we had seen.)
    I would think the ME would take into account the pictures which were taken at the remains site. Duct tape anchored at the jaw portion of the skull is unlikely to do any shifting if it head that jaw bone in place. The ME is responsible for determining cause of death which would include all evidence which would lead to that conclusion. Mr. Ashton said it because all evidence points to it being so. And from KC reaction...it hit a nerve, a big one. jmo

  6. #6
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    I've always wondered about Caylee's hyoid bone...

    It was one of the few not recovered, and it could be telling even though at her age, it was probably not completely ossified (and still flexible to an extent).

    One could imagine that in a rage, KC strangled Caylee or had her hands around her neck (perhaps Caylee was crying for CA?) before finishing the job with the duct tape...

    I just wish the hyoid had been found (and intact), because I'm pretty sure that would at least rule out manual strangulation by her killer...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadlatte View Post
    I've always wondered about Caylee's hyoid bone...

    It was one of the few not recovered, and it could be telling even though at her age, it was probably not completely ossified (and still flexible to an extent).

    One could imagine that in a rage, KC strangled Caylee or had her hands around her neck (perhaps Caylee was crying for CA?) before finishing the job with the duct tape...

    I just wish the hyoid had been found (and intact), because I'm pretty sure that would at least rule out manual strangulation by her killer...
    "
    I just wish the hyoid had been found (and intact), because I'm pretty sure that would at least rule out manual strangulation by her killer...

    BUT NOT EXACTLY TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Well worth re-quoting as this tidbit isn't a hard and fast "rule" of forensic pathology!


    The good ole hyoid bone is a treasure trove of information in the adult population regarding strangulation by ligature or manual but in children, less "gold standard" due to bone ossification levels. Easily put, the adult bone is brittle and breaks easier than the child's, but both would suffer asphyxia if/when the hyoid obstructed the trachea by dislocation.

    SO....ruling out manual strangulation is done by layer by layer dissection of the decedent's neck.

    Point of fact: actual hand bruising, "grab marks" and ligature marks have appeared on the body within 6-8 hours, adding more information to a case!
    “Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succure vitae”– Giovanni Margagni

    "This is the place where death rejoices to teach those who live."-
    Giovanni Margagni

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagull65 View Post
    it's interesting how this report noted the duct tape was covering the mouth and nasal aperture at that point, but I don't remember any of the earlier crime scene reports mentioning that it was covering the nasal aperture, only the mouth area. Maybe there had been a little shifting by the time it reached the ME's office? It seems like it would be almost impossible to prevent a certain amount of movement of the mandible and the tape when picking up the skull/mandible and during transport. But I'm only guessing. That was why I was so surprised when Mr. Ashton said so vehemently in that one hearing that Caylee had had her mouth and nose taped over, because the crime scene reports had only mentioned tape over the mouth as far as I could remember. (At least the ones that we had seen.)
    Susan Mears put the skull in the paper bag. She said the tape was on the lower area of the skull over the mouth. I find it hard to believe this tape was tight. I would think that it would be loose and floppy after all flesh has decomposed. Perhaps she bumped the bag with the tape part and the tape moved up. Crime scene photos should tell the story. Also, the bags were seperate at the crime scene and then tangled by the time they reached the ME office. I really wish I could see these crime scene photos. I do not think it is fair for the ME to determine cause of death if things were manipulated or changed by the time she examined.

    There are missing reports in my opinion. Steve Hanson collected the body, tied back vines and moved the log, and there is no report from him. Dr Utz and Dr Schultz gave a report from the ME office but no report from the Crime scene. What about CSI Bloise, he was there before Yuri and John, where is his report? Steve Hanson is a key person and so is CSI Bloise, however I still think J Allen should have filled out a report. I do not know what the protocol is, but I think the key witnesses should fill out reports.

    The picture of the tape is in an X shape fashion. I can not make any sense out of that. LKB said they are going to dispute the location of the duct tape. It was said on cbs 48 hours.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    I would think the ME would take into account the pictures which were taken at the remains site. Duct tape anchored at the jaw portion of the skull is unlikely to do any shifting if it head that jaw bone in place. The ME is responsible for determining cause of death which would include all evidence which would lead to that conclusion. Mr. Ashton said it because all evidence points to it being so. And from KC reaction...it hit a nerve, a big one. jmo
    I totally agree with you. Photos were taken at the crime scene prior to the skull being moved, that's a given. The ME based her findings starting with the evidence at the crime scene and the autopsy.
    If anything shifted during transportation to ME Office, she would have the photos. In other words, there are photos.
    Last edited by okiedokietoo; 05-04-2010 at 12:27 AM.
    ...the humble opinion of Jo Schmo...0 number of Days Jury Deliberated for Caylee

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    Susan Mears put the skull in the paper bag. She said the tape was on the lower area of the skull over the mouth. I find it hard to believe this tape was tight. I would think that it would be loose and floppy after all flesh has decomposed. Perhaps she bumped the bag with the tape part and the tape moved up. Crime scene photos should tell the story. Also, the bags were seperate at the crime scene and then tangled by the time they reached the ME office. I really wish I could see these crime scene photos. I do not think it is fair for the ME to determine cause of death if things were manipulated or changed by the time she examined.

    There are missing reports in my opinion. Steve Hanson collected the body, tied back vines and moved the log, and there is no report from him. Dr Utz and Dr Schultz gave a report from the ME office but no report from the Crime scene. What about CSI Bloise, he was there before Yuri and John, where is his report? Steve Hanson is a key person and so is CSI Bloise, however I still think J Allen should have filled out a report. I do not know what the protocol is, but I think the key witnesses should fill out reports.

    The picture of the tape is in an X shape fashion. I can not make any sense out of that. LKB said they are going to dispute the location of the duct tape. It was said on cbs 48 hours.
    Do you not think they took a gazillion crime scene photos before they even moved the skull from every possible angle? Before they moved the skull? There will be no doubt what the placement of the tape was.

    If the ME says the tape was over the nose and mouth - it was. Period. Full Stop.


  11. #11
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    Ok. Last time I ever play this "game" with my little Angel. I measured from the bridge of her nose to her mouth. It was 1 1/2 inches. From her mouth to her chin was 1 1/2 inches. As I stated before, she is three. Middle of the bridge of her nose to middle of mouth to bottom of chin, across her face is a total of 3 inches. Duct tape is a standard of 2 inches width. This is such a horrible thought. I lost my breath... So for what it's worth, for reference only. I've got to do LOTS of hugging to do now.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swancat63 View Post
    Ok. Last time I ever play this "game" with my little Angel. I measured from the bridge of her nose to her mouth. It was 1 1/2 inches. From her mouth to her chin was 1 1/2 inches. As I stated before, she is three. Middle of the bridge of her nose to middle of mouth to bottom of chin, across her face is a total of 3 inches. Duct tape is a standard of 2 inches width. This is such a horrible thought. I lost my breath... So for what it's worth, for reference only. I've got to do LOTS of hugging to do now.
    TY so Much Swancat!!!! BTW, your little one probably endured no negativity from this encounter, just sweet touches and eye contact from one she loves dearly (I would imagine). This information is a piece I have been missing and had no access to a 3 yr old who wouldn't feel invaded by a stranger. Not that I would measure some poor child's face for my own agenda, but I have thought of calling friends/family w/similar age children and asking a really strange request. TY, TY, TY! (I am bending at the waist saying "Alla, Alla, Alla"). You ROCK!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by joypath View Post
    "
    I just wish the hyoid had been found (and intact), because I'm pretty sure that would at least rule out manual strangulation by her killer...

    BUT NOT EXACTLY TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Well worth re-quoting as this tidbit isn't a hard and fast "rule" of forensic pathology!


    The good ole hyoid bone is a treasure trove of information in the adult population regarding strangulation by ligature or manual but in children, less "gold standard" due to bone ossification levels. Easily put, the adult bone is brittle and breaks easier than the child's, but both would suffer asphyxia if/when the hyoid obstructed the trachea by dislocation.

    SO....ruling out manual strangulation is done by layer by layer dissection of the decedent's neck.

    Point of fact: actual hand bruising, "grab marks" and ligature marks have appeared on the body within 6-8 hours, adding more information to a case!
    Thank you for your expertise!!! I am by no means an expert, just going off what I remember from anatomy and physiology in college...

    I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't positing that the hyoid bone would be some "magic bullet" that would prove/disprove anything. I should have chosen my wording more carefully.

    I realize that with the ossification factor that the examination of the hyoid could not be a "gold standard" for evaluation of youth strangulation. Thank you for making that more clear.

    I guess the observation I was trying to make was less scientific and more speculative - hardly "gold standard" and certainly troublesome to prove, but my logic went something like this:

    1) Hyoid is not found. (many reasons, very small bone, not completely ossified and could have been dispersed naturally, or possibly removed?)

    2) Hyoid is found intact. Ossification may not be complete, but tendon/ligament strong enough to hold it together. In this case, I speculated that manual strangulation would show up as some form of trauma (stretching, torsion, fissures?) to the tendon/ligament/ossification area. This is purely speculative, but as pliable as children are, homicide by strangulation would require great force, and therefore one could imagine the hyoid would bear some indication of that damage.

    3. Partial hyoid is found. Either naturally dissociated due to lack of complete ossification, OR hyoid was damaged during manual strangulation and was no longer intact.

    I'm sure I haven't covered all of the possibilities, but...

    the above is what I was thinking when I posted that finding an intact hyoid would be a small comfort, as I was speculating that the force required to manually strangle a 3 year old child would be enough to leave lasting damage/evidence to the bone, and if we had an intact hyoid, I could hold out the somewhat more humane hope that her killer put her to sleep (chloroform, xanax) before the duct tape application...

    Hope that makes any sense...
    Last edited by quadlatte; 05-05-2010 at 02:26 AM. Reason: trying to make more sense, LOL!

  14. #14
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    In reading this current discussion, I am wondering: Just a small thing, but when there is no outer nose left on the skull, the actual nasal cavity that is exposed could be a bit lower than where nostrils would be situated-Younger children still have the effect of the outer nose being slightly upturned, evolution provided that for breast feeding, so perhaps Caylee's nostrils were not covered but it appeared that way because the nasal cavity was slightly covered.
    However, if the defense were to use the nose vs. mouth & nose as their strategy it would be a losing case, because they would be admitting their client knew the difference....the defense will say the tape was either not put there by KC, or it was not on Caylee's skull at all-or both.

    ETA-Fixed my type-o's
    Last edited by Just Jayla; 05-05-2010 at 05:17 PM.

  15. #15
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    When I did the measurements on my 3 year old daughter, I too thought about the "no skin, no tissue" thing too. So today I measured how much her nose protudes from her face, at the longest part above her lips. So just for reference, her nose is just shy of 3/4 inch. from the base by her nostrils to the tip. I'm sure by now she thinks I have lost my mind....

    Just so you know, she is 35 inches tall and weighs 33 pounds. Her birth mother was only 5 feet tall and weighed 98 pounds before she became pregnant. Somewhere around Casey's size....

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