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  1. #1
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    Question Andrew G. Hodges' ForensicTheory on JB Ramsey Case

    I apologize if this has been gone over already. I was interested in the JBR case years ago, when it occurred, and some time later when I read Lawrence Schiller's "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town". Thus far, I have only been on WebSleuths Forum in relation to the case of Shantina Smiley. I began to get re-obsessed with the JBR case some months ago when I discovered Hodges' thoughtprints theory, and how he applied it to the Ramsey ransom note, and solved (in his professional opinion) the case. Again, I have been reading all of your JBR threads, but there are so, so many, and I was wondering how many of you had read Hodges' "A Mother Gone Bad" and "Who Will Speak for JonBenet?"http://forensicthoughtprints.com/cases/jonbenet.html And how many, if any, of you, had "bought" his theory? Again, sorry if this is redundant.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    I apologize if this has been gone over already. I was interested in the JBR case years ago, when it occurred, and some time later when I read Lawrence Schiller's "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town". Thus far, I have only been on WebSleuths Forum in relation to the case of Shantina Smiley. I began to get re-obsessed with the JBR case some months ago when I discovered Hodges' thoughtprints theory, and how he applied it to the Ramsey ransom note, and solved (in his professional opinion) the case. Again, I have been reading all of your JBR threads, but there are so, so many, and I was wondering how many of you had read Hodges' "A Mother Gone Bad" and "Who Will Speak for JonBenet?"http://forensicthoughtprints.com/cases/jonbenet.html And how many, if any, of you, had "bought" his theory? Again, sorry if this is redundant.

    I read that book a while back. Didn't really shed any NEW light on the case, at least for me. He saw the note as Patsy's subconscious confession. I do not share this view, though I think she wrote the note.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I read that book a while back. Didn't really shed any NEW light on the case, at least for me. He saw the note as Patsy's subconscious confession. I do not share this view, though I think she wrote the note.
    Thanks for your response. I also believe she wrote the note, but found it difficult to see a subconscious confession in it. Much of what he said in his analysis of the note seemed like his own projections onto it. In the end, though, I think his overall theory about how/why this happened makes the most sense of any I have read. I cannot imagine JR covering up for her if she "lost it" over bed wetting. I believe he would have run and called 9-11, despite her protests. Only if he felt he "provoked" the rage, would his guilt be great enough to believe all should be covered. JMO, anyway. I do find it hard to believe that both parents went so many years proclaiming innocence. Possible, but highly improbable. Thanks once more for your response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Only if he felt he "provoked" the rage, would his guilt be great enough to believe all should be covered.
    That's the way I look at it.

    I do find it hard to believe that both parents went so many years proclaiming innocence. Possible, but highly improbable.
    I don't know, SMK; there are people who've been in prison 30 years who say they didn't do it.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    That's the way I look at it.



    I don't know, SMK; there are people who've been in prison 30 years who say they didn't do it.
    Thanks so much for your remarks. Yes, true: People can get into the justification mode, I suppose, and on some level the Ramseys may even have begun to believe that there was an intruder, despite what they knew happened. It may be that all the media attention created a new "world" for them, in which they began to view themselves really as victims. Some believe this is the case also with the McCanns: That they covered up an accident with their child, but then came to view themselves, and feel themselves, victims of a kidnapper.

  6. #6
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    I haven't read the book but I agree with some of your thoughts. I believe the Ramseys went into the "justification" phase pretty early on. JR may have been blaming Pats'y parenting skills for JonBenet's continued incontinence. After all, it seems it didn't matter where they were, JB had mishaps everywhere (not just at night in her bed). This would have embarrased John and infuriated Patsy. A lot of people disagree with me on this issue and that's perfectly ok. Just because you or I would not have been very bothered with these issues does not mean they would not have. I'm just a middle income mom who raised 2 children (one of which did wet the bed until she was 14). I did not enjoy all the work that came with that but it did not push me beyond my emotional limits. BUT, I was also not suffering from cancer and having to show a totally composed facade at all times. You can believe that. It was very important for Patsy to be perfect 24/7, this includes her children. She would not and did not tolerate flaws in her children or her life. My dad always taught me to not sweat the small stuff. I dont believe Patsy viewed anything as small stuff. Sorry for the long post. Jist of it is I do believe that John provoked Patsy in many ways!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
    I haven't read the book but I agree with some of your thoughts. I believe the Ramseys went into the "justification" phase pretty early on. JR may have been blaming Pats'y parenting skills for JonBenet's continued incontinence. After all, it seems it didn't matter where they were, JB had mishaps everywhere (not just at night in her bed). This would have embarrased John and infuriated Patsy. A lot of people disagree with me on this issue and that's perfectly ok. Just because you or I would not have been very bothered with these issues does not mean they would not have. I'm just a middle income mom who raised 2 children (one of which did wet the bed until she was 14). I did not enjoy all the work that came with that but it did not push me beyond my emotional limits. BUT, I was also not suffering from cancer and having to show a totally composed facade at all times. You can believe that. It was very important for Patsy to be perfect 24/7, this includes her children. She would not and did not tolerate flaws in her children or her life. My dad always taught me to not sweat the small stuff. I dont believe Patsy viewed anything as small stuff. Sorry for the long post. Jist of it is I do believe that John provoked Patsy in many ways!
    I appreciate your feedback, and yes, I would agree that Patsy most likely would have a very low tolerance for flaws of any kind. I believe something occurred which got out of hand, and panic made them cover their tracks in the manner they did. What I find hard to believe is, they got away with it. I don't think a poor couple would have: Their wealth surely started things on the wrong track with the police.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Thanks so much for your remarks. Yes, true: People can get into the justification mode, I suppose, and on some level the Ramseys may even have begun to believe that there was an intruder, despite what they knew happened. It may be that all the media attention created a new "world" for them, in which they began to view themselves really as victims.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    I appreciate your feedback, and yes, I would agree that Patsy most likely would have a very low tolerance for flaws of any kind. I believe something occurred which got out of hand, and panic made them cover their tracks in the manner they did. What I find hard to believe is, they got away with it. I don't think a poor couple would have: Their wealth surely started things on the wrong track with the police.
    Imagine for a moment that the Ramseys had lived in a mobile home. They would have been handcuffed, sitting in police cars, while the officers searched the home to find their little girl. Please everyone, dont get upset with me, I have not forgotten that they were rich and JB was kidnapped for their money, or for the pleasure of the pedophile, or to get back at JR. Or maybe all of the above. Who can tell?
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
    Imagine for a moment that the Ramseys had lived in a mobile home. They would have been handcuffed, sitting in police cars, while the officers searched the home to find their little girl. Please everyone, dont get upset with me, I have not forgotten that they were rich and JB was kidnapped for their money, or for the pleasure of the pedophile, or to get back at JR. Or maybe all of the above. Who can tell?
    I do agree. Had they been economically of the lower class, and in a mobile home, the suspicion would have been on them immediately, and they would have been separated and taken to police headquarters for grueling questioning. It was their wealth that made the scenario believable to police, and by the time they became suspicious, it was too late...


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    I do agree. Had they been economically of the lower class, and in a mobile home, the suspicion would have been on them immediately, and they would have been separated and taken to police headquarters for grueling questioning. It was their wealth that made the scenario believable to police, and by the time they became suspicious, it was too late...
    Perhaps, but apparently the FBI told LA that the RN was bogus and to 'look for a body'. Despite this she sent JR and FW to search the house alone. In her own words, as soon as she saw JR come up the stairs holding JBR in what she felt was an unusual way (under the arms in front of him), she knew immediately that he was the killer. So they were 'suspicious' even before the body was found. I don't think this is a valid argument, as not too many people who live in mobile homes have their children kidnapped for ransom.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    I don't think this is a valid argument, as not too many people who live in mobile homes have their children kidnapped for ransom.
    More valid than you know. Word came down from the very top (both John Eller and Alex Hunter) that the Ramseys would be given kid-glove treatment. Indeed, several police forces and lawyers have marvelled at the way they were given the soft-touch. So you tell me that a regular joe like myself would be given those considerations. No way.

    This whole idea of a police force out to get them is ridiculous anyway.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    More valid than you know. Word came down from the very top (both John Eller and Alex Hunter) that the Ramseys would be given kid-glove treatment. Indeed, several police forces and lawyers have marvelled at the way they were given the soft-touch. So you tell me that a regular joe like myself would be given those considerations. No way.

    This whole idea of a police force out to get them is ridiculous anyway.
    Hmm, you've said this before SD and repeating it doesn't it make it any more believable.

  14. #14
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Hmm, you've said this before SD and repeating it doesn't it make it any more believable.
    MurriFlower, would you please clarify which part of SD's statement is not believable?
    Thanks in advance,
    Becky
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Hmm, you've said this before SD and repeating it doesn't it make it any more believable.
    Then I'll tell you what, MurriFlower: don't take my word for it. Read some of the books. They are invaluable in seeing not only how the various scenarios were considered, but in how the police came to their eventual conclusions.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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