View Poll Results: Where was JB's body when FW opened the wine cellar door?

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  • Right there but he didn't see it

    14 28.57%
  • Somewhere else and was moved later

    9 18.37%
  • In the same room but in a different spot,moved later

    17 34.69%
  • He didn't open the door or he is lying about what he saw

    9 18.37%
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Thread: JB/wine cellar

  1. #1
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    JB/wine cellar

    Where was JB's body when FW opened the wine celler door?
    Last edited by madeleine; 05-27-2010 at 02:23 AM. Reason: spelling

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  3. #2
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    I still don't understand how one didn't see anything and the other saw her instantly.This will bug me until I drop dead.

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  5. #3
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    Good God,officer,why didn't you open that door??

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  7. #4
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    I have to wonder how many hours FW spent worrying over this same question.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Good God,officer,why didn't you open that door??
    Right. It was his biggest regret, he said later. He knew that not only did it allow irrevocable contamination of the crime scene, but he was aware that when children are reported missing and later found dead in the family home, that a family member is usually responsible.

    As far as the mystery of why FW didn't see her and JR rushed right up to her (allegedly before the light was even switched on)- here's how I see it.
    FW didn't know where the light switch was because it was in an odd place down low on the wall just outside the room. If he looked in a room that dark (remember- no window) he may NOT have seen her. The room was "L" shaped slightly and to see the body, you'd have to bend IN and look to the left or step into the room. Tests were done in the basement to see if there was enough light coming from the area just outside the wineceller to see inside the dark room. There was enough light that he should have seen her, especially covered with a white blanket- the wineceller wasn't THAT big. But still, unless he had his head bent INTO the room, he may not have seen her.

    I don't think she was moved from another place. Only one livor pattern, and too risky once other people were in the house. BUT I do think that she may have been deeper in the room and JR went during his 2 hour disappearance where Arndt said she "thought" he went to get his mail (not true- the mail came into a slot in the front door- not a 2 hour job) and moved her body closer to the door. If you look at the pics of that room, JB's body where it was found was pretty close to the door. Even in the dark, she'd have been seen.
    So to answer the last part about why JR saw her immediately- well- he knew where she was.
    Think about it- JR supposedly was kidnapped from her own bedroom. When Arndt told JR to take another look around-, wouldn't you have rushed right up to her room first? Arndt said to see is anything of note was missing- a familiar doll or toy or some clothing. These things wouldn't be kept in the basement, and certainly not in the wineceller. Another suspicious thing is that the wineceller was still latched with the small wood latch (that nobody knew about unless they were familiar with that wineceller). The door could not be locked from the inside, so it's not like JB would have locked herself in there (or anyone else). The fact that JR went RIGHT to that room makes me believe he knew right where she was. And by this time, it was 1 PM- about 12 hours after her death. She already had an odor of decomposition. She NEEDED to be found. Waiting for cadaver dogs was not something that the Rs wanted to have happen.
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  11. #6
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    It's been said that FW knew about the switch because he went there to get some wine for the party.

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  13. #7
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    There are two things that really don't make sense if the R's staged the scene.Why not leave the window open and why take the tape off her mouth?Unstaging the staging?

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  15. #8
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    Same re the flashlight.
    Let's say RDI and the flashlight was used in the staging or in the murder.Why wipe it clean?It would have been normal for the R's prints to be there,no one would have questioned them about it I am sure,the suspicion started when the R's didn't recognize it.I think they are telling the truth re this one.
    >The flashlight is one + to the IDI theory in my opinion.

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  17. #9
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    IIRC it was full of dirt,so that means I guess that it was wiped clean of prints before it was used God knows what for.So IMO it makes more sense that the intruder wiped it clean before he put the gloves on in case he forgets/loses it at the crime scene,which happened.

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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I still don't understand how one didn't see anything and the other saw her instantly.This will bug me until I drop dead.
    Maybe one of them knew what to look for?
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  21. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    There are two things that really don't make sense if the R's staged the scene.Why not leave the window open and why take the tape off her mouth?Unstaging the staging?
    More like adding to it.
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  23. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Maybe one of them knew what to look for?
    It's the MAYBE that bugs me.

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  25. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    More like adding to it.
    But JR seems the calculated one and this is way too complicated.

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  27. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    It's the MAYBE that bugs me.
    Granted.

    But JR seems the calculated one and this is way too complicated.
    Seems simple to me. But taken at face value, wouldn't it be the calculated thing to do, since FW was there with him and would expect him to do something like that?
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  29. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    There are two things that really don't make sense if the R's staged the scene.Why not leave the window open and why take the tape off her mouth?Unstaging the staging?
    Maybe they didn't think about portraying the point of entry as being through the open window.

    As far as the tape- JR and FW were the only ones who allegedly saw that tape and touched it, other than the one who put it there. If JR put it there, he could have pulled off the tape to make sure there was an explanation for his prints being on the tape. Plus he had a witness (FW) who should have seen him pull the tape off. FW has not said (as far as I know) exactly what he saw JR do as he followed him into the wineceller.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  31. #16
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    Speaking of which,where was Fernie,I read that he was supposed to go with them?

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  33. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Maybe they didn't think about portraying the point of entry as being through the open window.
    That fits. Their first round involved the "key" story. They didn't switch to the "open window" story until LS latched onto it and they decided not to go against the grain.

    As far as the tape- JR and FW were the only ones who allegedly saw that tape and touched it, other than the one who put it there. If JR put it there, he could have pulled off the tape to make sure there was an explanation for his prints being on the tape. Plus he had a witness (FW) who should have seen him pull the tape off. FW has not said (as far as I know) exactly what he saw JR do as he followed him into the wineceller.
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  35. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Speaking of which,where was Fernie,I read that he was supposed to go with them?
    I don't believe he did go with them to the basement at that time. Fernie may have made another previous foray into the basement but as far as I know, only FW accompanied JR into the basement around 1 PM (at Det. Arndt's suggestion) and JR went right to the wineceller and "found" his daughter.

    One thing I recall from Arndt's testimony was that after JB had been brought up she had said to FW not to let anyone near that basement. But instead, either FW went back down himself or others did. (not sure which) maybe someone here remembers.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  37. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Speaking of which,where was Fernie,I read that he was supposed to go with them?
    Yes, I was wondering about that too.

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  39. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post

    One thing I recall from Arndt's testimony was that after JB had been brought up she had said to FW not to let anyone near that basement.
    I never trusted Arndt so I wonder whether she told the truth in the ABC interview re "knowing" instantly who the killer was,because if true then it makes sense.She had FW guarding the crime scene so that JR doesn't get near it again.But this means that this second big mistake she made is even more stupid and biased than it seemed.Yes I know she didn't have back-up but she could have kept them ALL together until the other officers arrive!

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  41. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I never trusted Arndt so I wonder whether she told the truth in the ABC interview re "knowing" instantly who the killer was,because if true then it makes sense.She had FW guarding the crime scene so that JR doesn't get near it again.But this means that this second big mistake she made is even more stupid and biased than it seemed.Yes I know she didn't have back-up but she could have kept them ALL together until the other officers arrive!
    Given that she was already (apparently - told this but not seen the evidence) advised by the FBI that they should 'look for a body', you wouldn't think she would send the parent and friend(s) to search the house would you? Then, to accuse the father who found her of not only being her murderer but also of sexually abusing her, all based on a 'look' they exchanged over the body of his dead daughter!! Quite ridiculous!!

    What father who had just found the apparently murdered (strangled) body of his child would not have a murderous look in his eyes? Why she would think it was directed at her I have no idea. The whole nonsense of checking her gun, in case of what - in case he went completely crazy and killed them all?? Wouldn't you just say, "John, we'll get whoever did this"? Just shows how insensitive she was to their pain and suffering.

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  43. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    One thing I recall from Arndt's testimony was that after JB had been brought up she had said to FW not to let anyone near that basement. But instead, either FW went back down himself or others did. (not sure which) maybe someone here remembers.
    "Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door. Instead, White ran back down into the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it."
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    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

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  45. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I never trusted Arndt so I wonder whether she told the truth in the ABC interview re "knowing" instantly who the killer was,because if true then it makes sense.She had FW guarding the crime scene so that JR doesn't get near it again.But this means that this second big mistake she made is even more stupid and biased than it seemed.Yes I know she didn't have back-up but she could have kept them ALL together until the other officers arrive!
    I have to say I agree about Arndt. She did recognize what she saw as suspicious behavior on the part of JR, but I feel she in large part spins things to minimize the impact of her tragic breach of proper police protocol in a crime of this nature (even though it was thought to be a kidnapping at first- still a capital crime). MUCH of the failure to solve this crime can be laid at her feet and also Officer French.
    She had a gun. She could have kept everyone in one room, where she could have kept an eye on them until backup arrived. Had she done that in the first place, realizing she was losing control of the crime scene with so many unauthorized people milling around, even though French couldn't figure out how to open a simply latched door, JB would have remained unfound and the trappings of the crime itself- the tape and garrote- would be uncontaminated by anyone who claimed to not have seen her after she went to bed.
    Then, when it looked like she was being made a scapegoat by her own department, she developed "amnesia", which I believe she still "suffers" from to this day (in anticipation of writing her own book, which she had said she would do, but as yet has not.)
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  47. #24
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    yep the perp knew how to unlatch the door, find the light switch because I cant believe she was strangled in the dark, turned the light off and relatched the door.

    I would like to hear IDI theory on this. There is no smokin gun in this case but enough little things that add up to RDI.

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  49. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by RTC View Post
    yep the perp knew how to unlatch the door, find the light switch because I cant believe she was strangled in the dark, turned the light off and relatched the door.

    I would like to hear IDI theory on this. There is no smokin gun in this case but enough little things that add up to RDI.
    Ok, well:

    1. the IDI was not in the dark (the lights in the basement were apparently on) so all he/she needed to do was look up to unlatch the door. (IDI smarter than BPD!)

    2. JBR was not strangled in the wine cellar as far as anyone knows. One theory (due to the urine stain on the floor) that it was in the hallway of the adjoining room.

    3. IDI may have been familiar with the house, or even if not, had all afternoon to look around at leisure while the R's were out.

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