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Thread: FL - Madison - WhtMale 1119UMFL, 21-35, Hit & Run Victim, Aug'80

  1. #1
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    FL - Madison - WhtMale 1119UMFL, 21-35, Hit & Run Victim, Aug'80

    The Doe Network:
    Case File 1119UMFL http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1119umfl.html
    NamUs Case #795 https://identifyus.org/cases/795



    Unidentified White Male

    * The victim was discovered on August 20, 1980 in Madison, Madison County, Florida
    * Cause of Death: A pedestrian struck by vehicle.
    * Estimated Date of Death: 3 days prior

    Vital Statistics

    * Estimated age: 21-35 years old
    * Approximate Height and Weight: 73"; 112 lbs.
    * Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown, straight hair, light brown mustache and beard. Circumcised.
    * Clothing: Pants that appear to be jeans, t-shirt, long-sleeved shirt with button cuffs, socks, and leather-like, imprinted belt with buckle. 2 socks. Personal effects included $0.28 (coins).
    * DNA: Not available

    Case History
    The victim was a pedestrian, and apparent victim of a hit and run accident on US Highway 90, eight miles west of Madison, FL.
    He was last seen on August 17, 1980 hitchhiking in an easterly direction east of Greenville, FL.
    Three days later his decomposed remains were found in a ditch on the side of the road.
    He had a blood alcohol level of 0.15% when found.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 03-21-2013 at 09:30 PM.

  2. #2
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    Daniel Fogg looks like a good possible.

    _____

    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/fogg_daniel.html
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1127dmtx.html

    Age: UID 21-35, DFogg 24 Within Range
    Height: UID 6'1", DFogg 6'0"
    Eyes: UID Blue, DFogg Blue Match
    Ears: Both DFogg and UID have Attached Lobes and have very similarly shaped ears.
    Timeframe: 31 Days between DFogg's DLC and UID's Estimated DOD.
    Circumstances: UID was hitchhiking eastbound through FL panhandle - Consistent with Austin TX origin.
    Appearance: Both have similar hairlines, noses, and pointy chins.

    Inconsistencies:
    • UID's hair is listed as brown, DFogg's hair is listed as blonde (although it looks light brown in color photo)
    • Where are his glasses?
    • Would a man with the mentality of an 8-year-old be able to hitchhike from TX to FL, and take care of himself for a month while on the road?
    • Would he be a drinker of alcoholic beverages?
    • He gave his name as "Gerald L. Hill" to a store clerk.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 10-09-2012 at 04:57 PM.

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  4. #3
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    I think it looks very possible. If Fogg was capable of handling a transaction to buy pizza off the campus of the ranch, it's possible he could have done the same during his travels and bought meals for himself. His Charley Project page mentions he was friendly and enjoyed talking to strangers; I can picture his new acquaintances buying him coffee or some food, maybe sensing he was having trouble getting by.

    I can't find much about post-mortem BAC online. Would his BAC at time of death have been significantly higher than 0.15% or does alcohol not break down in the body after death?

    Even if he hadn't been in the habit of drinking (I would assume it wasn't permitted at the ranch) he might have shared a few drinks with someone he'd been traveling with in the hours before the fatal accident.

    It's a mystery as to why he would have given his name as "Gerald L. Hill" to a clerk. I had the odd idea it might be a character or actor from his favorite TV show, Gunsmoke, but I don't see any reference to the name on gunsmoke.net, which appears to be the largest fansite for the program. Maybe there was someone at the ranch called Gerald Hill?

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  6. #4
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    While mentally challenged individuals are sometimes victimized on the road, more often they're treated kindly and helped along. Somebody might well have taken him under their wing for a while.

    It sounds like he might have run into the not-uncommon problem for developmentally disabled individuals -- emotionally wanting to have a normal adult life, even if not necessarily capable of handling it. He seems to have had enough ability to plan to leave, anyway.

    If he was hit by a car and thrown into a ditch, his glasses might have flown anywhere.

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    I'm a little confused. The doe network says he is mentally retarded, but the charley project site says he is autistic and living and at a ranch for the mentally retarded.

    Isn't the major definer of autism that people with the disorder have a hard time / don't really communicate with people?

    which site tends to have more accurate info?

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    Quote Originally Posted by buffetoflies View Post
    I'm a little confused. The doe network says he is mentally retarded, but the charley project site says he is autistic and living and at a ranch for the mentally retarded.

    Isn't the major definer of autism that people with the disorder have a hard time / don't really communicate with people?

    which site tends to have more accurate info?
    I don't think that as a rule, you can say one site is more accurate than the other. I've seen big errors in all of them.

    Just yesterday, I e-mailed the NamUs case manager on a case where there was a photo of a woman (Ronda Harney) standing in front of measuring lines on a wall showing that she was 5'7", but NamUs (and consequently DoeNet, which got it from NamUs) said that she was 5'0".

    On another case NamUs indicated that a female UID was 102 inches tall. That calculates out to 8 feet 6 inches, but DoeNet for the same case indicated a more reasonable 4'7" to 5'2".
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 06-02-2010 at 01:38 PM.

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    This Doe was listed as 6'1" and 112 lbs. Can that be right?

    I'm that height and not a very big frame and even with no body fat on me at all I'd be 140.

    Even as a rake-thin 19-year-old, I don't think I ever weighed less than 133 - and that was 50 lbs ago.

    That's so thin in fact that I'm sure it is either an error or someone with severe malnutrition or other wasting disease.

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  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cymro View Post
    This Doe was listed as 6'1" and 112 lbs. Can that be right?

    I'm that height and not a very big frame and even with no body fat on me at all I'd be 140.

    Even as a rake-thin 19-year-old, I don't think I ever weighed less than 133 - and that was 50 lbs ago.

    That's so thin in fact that I'm sure it is either an error or someone with severe malnutrition or other wasting disease.
    I saw that, and thought that it must be in error. It may be the weight of partially decomposed remains. NamUs indicates that the weight cannot be estimated.

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    I called this in to Texas DPS, and left a message with Analyst Alice Buchanan.

    I normally call the UID side, but I know that Texas DPS is very thorough in following up on leads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    I don't think that as a rule, you can say one site is more accurate than the other. I've seen big errors in all of them.

    Just yesterday, I e-mailed the NamUs case manager on a case where there was a photo of a woman (Ronda Harney) standing in front of measuring lines on a wall showing that she was 5'7", but NamUs (and consequently DoeNet, which got it from NamUs) said that she was 5'0".

    On another case NamUs indicated that a female UID was 102 inches tall. That calculates out to 8 feet 6 inches, but DoeNet for the same case indicated a more reasonable 4'7" to 5'2".
    I thought the same thing about the height/weight on this case, "he must have been horribly emaciated and homeless".

    Golly, I can't tell you how many people I've looked at and then said to myself, oh wait a minute, even though everything else makes sense, that can't be him/her; waay too short or waay too tall. What if there was a typo in one of the website? And I didn't realize that one website "fed" another. So if one's got inaccuracies, then so will the next. I guess there's not much can be done about human error, but when something is this important.....I mean this is the "last thing these persons own" their descriptions, no name, just a description, you'd think they'd get it accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    I think it looks very possible. If Fogg was capable of handling a transaction to buy pizza off the campus of the ranch, it's possible he could have done the same during his travels and bought meals for himself. His Charley Project page mentions he was friendly and enjoyed talking to strangers; I can picture his new acquaintances buying him coffee or some food, maybe sensing he was having trouble getting by.

    I can't find much about post-mortem BAC online. Would his BAC at time of death have been significantly higher than 0.15% or does alcohol not break down in the body after death?

    Even if he hadn't been in the habit of drinking (I would assume it wasn't permitted at the ranch) he might have shared a few drinks with someone he'd been traveling with in the hours before the fatal accident.

    It's a mystery as to why he would have given his name as "Gerald L. Hill" to a clerk. I had the odd idea it might be a character or actor from his favorite TV show, Gunsmoke, but I don't see any reference to the name on gunsmoke.net, which appears to be the largest fansite for the program. Maybe there was someone at the ranch called Gerald Hill?
    Gerald L Hill was one of the police officers involved in the law enforcement efforts in the aftermath of the Kenedy assassination. Here is a youtube link to a clip with a little footage of him.
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8jEyPTQPz0[/ame]
    Last edited by reasypeasy; 06-03-2010 at 06:43 AM. Reason: to fix a link

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  19. #12
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    Good find, Reasy. It's possible that Fogg remembered the name from news coverage of the assassination. Maybe he was primarily interested in Gunsmoke for the law enforcement element of the program and would have tuned in to a program on the Kennedy assassination as well.

    Had he just given his name as something generic like "John Smith" it might not have meant anything, but giving a middle initial sounds like he didn't make it up on the spot but had heard the name before. He must have talked to the clerk at least a while if they got around to exchanging names and I wonder if the clerk got an overall impression of his condition: did he appear to be taking care of himself, was he well-nourished, etc? Did the clerk remember him wearing glasses?

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    Just spoke with Alice Buchanan of Texas DPS. She says that she will pass on the info on Daniel Fogg to "the University" (I am guessing Univ of East TX), and they will look into it. She says that it doesn't normally take very long for them to get an answer on these things.

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    For the record, there are a lot of Gerald L Hill's when you use People Search that show up. There's even one listed in FL.

    http://www.peoplefinders.com/search/...=&dobdd=&doby=

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    Probably just me but Daniel Fogg doesn't seem to have the same jaw line the Doe does. Fogg's is sorta' sqaured and the sketch of the Doe is quite long and more pointed.

    I am wondering about what Namus shows as dentals, they only show 3 teeth, all three missing) Does that mean that there aren't any more, or that the rest are all there and natural with absolutely no dental work? It looks to me like someone did a darn quick job when they did the autopsy of this poor man. It also says "prior surgery", but doesn't bother to list where on the body the scar is. "imprinted belt with buckle" what imprint?
    Namus also says this man was probably struck by the vehicle only 3 days prior, yet it says "Not recognizable - Decomposing/putrefaction". (Perhaps again, there was animal damage?)

    I find this weird and very frustrating. The long chin and receding hairline remind of David Bird Thompson. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...son_david.html
    Except I think his jaw, again, is too square to be the Doe.

    I do think this man has potential, William Anthony Marshall: http://www.geocities.ws/missingwam/
    It's obvious also from the pictures here that Bill was a drinker, and the Doe had a blood alcohol of .15. I don't see a receding hairline as in the Doe's sketch though.


    I know the height is off a little, but the more I look at the height and weight and other particulars of this case, I think it may be in error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billylee View Post
    Probably just me but Daniel Fogg doesn't seem to have the same jaw line the Doe does. Fogg's is sorta' sqaured and the sketch of the Doe is quite long and more pointed.
    The John Doe's jawline doesn't look natural to me, and his ear sits too low. I have a feeling that the decedent's mouth was wide open, and the artist didn't adequately foreshorten the jawline when depicting him with a closed mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billylee View Post
    I am wondering about what Namus shows as dentals, they only show 3 teeth, all three missing) Does that mean that there aren't any more, or that the rest are all there and natural with absolutely no dental work?
    The John Doe's NamUs dental chart is incorrectly notated. If teeth were missing, it should be marked with an "A" (Antemortem Loss), or "P" (Postmortem Loss). If not, and there are no anomalies, they should all be marked "N" for Natural Tooth, No Fillings. But it shouldn't be left blank. Each square should have something in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billylee View Post
    The long chin and receding hairline remind of David Bird Thompson. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...son_david.html
    I think that David Thompson's physical problems are too significant not to have been noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billylee View Post
    I do think this man has potential, William Anthony Marshall: http://www.geocities.ws/missingwam/
    It's obvious also from the pictures here that Bill was a drinker, and the Doe had a blood alcohol of .15. I don't see a receding hairline as in the Doe's sketch though.

    I know the height is off a little, but the more I look at the height and weight and other particulars of this case, I think it may be in error.
    I wonder why William Marshall is not listed in Charley, NamUs, or DoeNet. Given the errors that we constantly find, you are not wrong to doubt the reliability of the particulars.

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    Thank you for your views Carl, especially why the chin might look too long there. I just have a lot of doubts on what this Doe's page says about him. We all caught the weight issue right off the bat. If that is an error, perhaps there is more? Don't know, just bringing up the possibility. I agree about Bird's other medical issues not being noted, but like I said, it looks to me, JMO mind you, that there seemed to be a rush to judgment on this JD's stats. I wonder if we were to write to them, if it would be possible to get a copy of the actual autopsy report? Some seem to make that available and others not.

    William Marshall is listed on Porchlight under TX missing, and yes I found it weird that he wasn't elsewhere other than the site I posted. He does fit the time frame, height is a bit shorter, but I found the long face (jaw line) and light beard and mustache awfully close to the description. I'll keep trying to find what I can on him, but so far this is it.
    Last edited by Billylee; 06-05-2010 at 12:33 AM. Reason: typo

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    I spoke with the two clerks that were working at the 7-11 store where this guy was seen. All the information below was given to me yesterday by both clerks:

    The guy came in to return bottles for refund. He had obviously not taken a bath in a while. Back then, they made peole returning bottles sign their name on some sheet for records. He signed it as Gerald L. Hill. He bought ice cream with the money from the bottles. One clerk felt sorry for him and gave him some food. He then leaned against a small ledge outside of the store. He was wearing white pants or faded jeans that were split open in the crotch area. The clerk who gave him food began to feel uncomfortable and called the police. Officer Odel Livingston Sr. was the officer on duty. He responded to the call. He spoke with the guy then put him in his car to give him a ride to the edge of the city (East side). The town is tiny so that wasn't even a mile if I'm not mistaken. A few days later, the guy's body was discovered on the side of the road by a county worker mowing the shoulder along Hwy 90 about 8 miles west of Madison City limits and they came back to the store clerk for the guy's name.

    Law Enforcement Sources:

    At that time, there was a Sheriff's Depuy's patrol car that struck an unidentified animal in the same stretch of Hwy known as the Hickstown Staightaway. The Sheriff, Joe Peavy, sent the bumper to a friend of his at the FDLE for forensic testing. It came back as negative; not the car that hit Mr. Hill.

    I, myself, eye witness account:

    Joe Peavy and the owner of the Beggs funeral home then and now that was in charge of burying Mr. Hill, pointed at the same spot where he was buried in 1980. A forensic team carefully searched the area down 4 feet deep. there was no body. They then dug about 10 feet over to one side and found someone else. There was no records of burial for this body but it was not Mr. Hill. At a later date, the same team dug in a different direction and made disturbing discovery. Let's just say, the funeral home didn't live up to their end of the bargin.

    ALL of the evidence associated with this case has been destroyed including Mr. Hills hands which were cut of for possible ID at a later date. The patrol car bumper was also destroyed.

    There were many bones broken in Mr. Hill's body consistant with a semi-truck hitting him.

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  27. #19
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    I know what the last post said. however, this missing person from FL fits many of the criteria, Dale Visel.

    Dale was 26 y.o., 5'11", 190 lbs (the 112 lbs in Doe must be an error), brown hair, and was last seen in Ft. Lauderdale on June 20, 1980. Madison is far from Ft. Lauderdale but if Dale was bumming around who knows?

    no pic is available for Dale.

    https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/11285/0/

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    Dr. Gerald Lennon Hill, MD
    Male, Age 76, Graduated 1966, University Of Texas Southwestern Medical Center.
    Internship in 1967 at John Peter Smith Hospital, Texas.

    He could have been Daniel Fogg's doctor!

    Have you chased this Carl?

  29. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DippyBlonder View Post
    Dr. Gerald Lennon Hill, MD
    Male, Age 76, Graduated 1966, University Of Texas Southwestern Medical Center.
    Internship in 1967 at John Peter Smith Hospital, Texas.

    He could have been Daniel Fogg's doctor!

    Have you chased this Carl?
    They have no identifiers on the UID, and they can't even locate his body, so it probably wouldn't help much.

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    Annoying!

    I think you are spot on with your match too.

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