Belgium - Police raid Catholic Bishops and Archdiocese

I think this is fascinating and a turning point in the war against institutionalized sexual abuse of children-
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VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI lashed out Sunday at what he called the "deplorable" raids carried out by Belgian police who detained bishops, confiscated computers, opened a crypt and took church documents as part of an investigation into priestly sex abuse.
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Interesting that the Belgian police treated these bishops just as if they were civilians suspected of hiding proof of sexual abuse-the bishops were detained for 9 hours and their cell phones seized. The police took possession of 500+ records dealing with an internal church investigation into priest sexual abuse.

Apparently the Belgians are unwilling to go through what the Irish have gone through in attempting to obtain the records of similar investigations. Why is it I have the urge to say "Checkmate?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100627/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_belgium

Thank you for starting this thread Believe. I find the level of consternation so interesting. Does anyone have any theories as to why the crypt was opened? Looking for buried evidence or DNA, possibly?

I'm sure the Bishops were completely shocked and humiliated by having their cell phones and laptops taken. They are not above the law, however. If they've done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear.

I am so loving this. It's about time they are treated like the common criminals they are.

Deplorable is people growing up deeply scarred and confused about core issues. That's what's deplorable. Using the word, "deplorable" from the bully pulpit, I personally also think that's also depraved and deplorable.

I am probably going to get booed for saying this but this is a bigger thing than even what we understand. These priests claim to have the actual priesthood of Jesus Christ. For them to abuse children is so evil that I cannot understand why there are still members of this church. My mom always told me everyone makes mistakes when we discussed this, but this is beyond that. The church is only answering these accusations because of the overwhelming evidence and public outcry. What a shame that these men who we have trusted with our most precious commodity have abused that trust over and over and over. Although we have Jesus as our atonement, it would seem to me that priest abuse of children goes over the top and even if the Lord forgave them we would not continue to support such churches. I know there is an excuse why I'm wrong, but its just my opinion.

The Church is in some very dicey territory. They are essentially saying that Belgium does not have juridiction over the bishops. I would think that this could energize a number of investigations across the world-and I wonder if the Church is going to start destroying the records rather than have this happen?

Missizzy said:

Thank you for starting this thread Believe. I find the level of consternation so interesting. Does anyone have any theories as to why the crypt was opened? Looking for buried evidence or DNA, possibly?

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Apparently they acted on a confidential tip. At least that's what was said in the Belgian (Flemish) newspapers.

Although I have been living in Ireland since 2002, I still follow the news of my birth country. While I completely agree that bishops, priests, nuns and the rest are not above the law, I have a few personal qualms with the opening of the tomb of the archbishop. Personally (and this is only my opinion), I think they were a bit heavy-handed (but only there). This is actually more a crypt than a tomb and is/was fully covered with a marble slab. As Cardinal Mercier died in 1926 and the crypt was covered nearly immediately afterwards, I can't see how you could hide records there in the 1970's without leaving any sign of entrance.
But for that, I completely agree with the actions that the Judicial took.

Frieda

Irish Frieke said:

Apparently they acted on a confidential tip. At least that's what was said in the Belgian (Flemish) newspapers.

Although I have been living in Ireland since 2002, I still follow the news of my birth country. While I completely agree that bishops, priests, nuns and the rest are not above the law, I have a few personal qualms with the opening of the tomb of the archbishop. Personally (and this is only my opinion), I think they were a bit heavy-handed (but only there). This is actually more a crypt than a tomb and is/was fully covered with a marble slab. As Cardinal Mercier died in 1926 and the crypt was covered nearly immediately afterwards, I can't see how you could hide records there in the 1970's without leaving any sign of entrance.
But for that, I completely agree with the actions that the Judicial took.

Frieda

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Thank you for your perspective, Frieda. I suspect that they were looking for records that might have been in the crypt. JMO.

The Catholic Church and all Churches really will have to come to grips with not being above the law or outside of it.

Criminal actions=criminal investigation=criminal charges. Regardless if you are a priest or a civilian. This goes for MD's or any of the groups/institutions that have been held inviolate in our past. I mean, the price that has been paid for the playing field not being level is way too high. Again, JMO.

PorcineGranny said:

These priests claim to have the actual priesthood of Jesus Christ. For them to abuse children is so evil that I cannot understand why there are still members of this church.

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Because we are Catholics. We're like the Mafia. You never get out!

PG if every organized Religion has members that just up and quit because a clergy or a deacon or Rabbi abused children there'd be no more organized Religion.

Trust you me I am not excusing the cover up or now I see the Pope all mad about the raid. No excuse. It's vile and awful the things that have been done to our children. Worse is the men that knew it was going on and continued to let it go on. However, this is not every Priest. There are still people that have Faith in the Catholic Church. I can absolutely understand why someone wouldn't understand it, but they do have Faith.

Just Filly's opinion.

believe09 said:

I think this is fascinating and a turning point in the war against institutionalized sexual abuse of children-
snip
VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI lashed out Sunday at what he called the "deplorable" raids carried out by Belgian police who detained bishops, confiscated computers, opened a crypt and took church documents as part of an investigation into priestly sex abuse.
snip

Interesting that the Belgian police treated these bishops just as if they were civilians suspected of hiding proof of sexual abuse-the bishops were detained for 9 hours and their cell phones seized. The police took possession of 500+ records dealing with an internal church investigation into priest sexual abuse.

Apparently the Belgians are unwilling to go through what the Irish have gone through in attempting to obtain the records of similar investigations. Why is it I have the urge to say "Checkmate?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100627/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_belgium

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BRAVO Belgian authorities! BRAVO!:woohoo::woohoo: It's about time someone grew a set and took the BULL by the horns!!!

Filly said:

Because we are Catholics. We're like the Mafia. You never get out!

PG if every organized Religion has members that just up and quit because a clergy or a deacon or Rabbi abused children there'd be no more organized Religion.

Trust you me I am not excusing the cover up or now I see the Pope all mad about the raid. No excuse. It's vile and awful the things that have been done to our children. Worse is the men that knew it was going on and continued to let it go on. However, this is not every Priest. There are still people that have Faith in the Catholic Church. I can absolutely understand why someone wouldn't understand it, but they do have Faith.

Just Filly's opinion.

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Filly, I might not have expressed my opinion clearly. This is a Church that claims to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, they claim to have the actual priesthood and that Christ himself is the one that gave them the authority. To this end, it should be obvious that this is untrue and that their statements and doctrine to the effect if you do not believe and participate you will not inherit heaven. Thats my thing, they can't possibly be the Church the Lord would have us learn from. Its not just one or two cases, its an avalanche of abuse in this one Church. Overwhelming. (Filly that doesn't mean I don't think Catholics are good folks, my parents were Catholic) I just think they are blinded to the evil of this Church and never wish to know what has gone on.

I think you make good points, Granny - I definitely understand the outrage you feel and the points you make about what the Catholic church claims as regards being the "one true church."

It is beyond heartbreaking to consider that any adult who has been charged with the spiritual welfare of a child would harm that child.

Very interesting development, believe - thanks for posting it.

PorcineGranny said:

Filly, I might not have expressed my opinion clearly. This is a Church that claims to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, they claim to have the actual priesthood and that Christ himself is the one that gave them the authority. To this end, it should be obvious that this is untrue and that their statements and doctrine to the effect if you do not believe and participate you will not inherit heaven. Thats my thing, they can't possibly be the Church the Lord would have us learn from. Its not just one or two cases, its an avalanche of abuse in this one Church. Overwhelming. (Filly that doesn't mean I don't think Catholics are good folks, my parents were Catholic) I just think they are blinded to the evil of this Church and never wish to know what has gone on.

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Granny I'm just catching up on Canon Law. From what I recall being taught I got out of it that they are just men except when they are administering sacraments?

Trust me I didn't pay attention in class. I was too busy getting beat up by Nuns for being boy crazy.

In all sincerity and this is a very, very critical situation I'm right with you. I'm just not certain about these guys being the the only true Church of Christ. I thought Catholicism came Judaism? :waitasec: I'll have to ask my DD about this. She spent her entire Catholic school education rebelling if only for the fact women couldn't become Priests. Not that she'd want to be one mind you.

Thanks Granny I think I'm a half decent sort of folk. I'm glad that this is now finally somewhere in the world coming down. No holds barred.

The crypt was sealed in 1926? What on earth could they be looking for? Why would documents be sealed inside a crypt when they could have been burned? Could it be to gather DNA or to check for a child's remains? I guess to me, as a non-Catholic, that is the biggest mystery. And I'd also like to hear what was on those lap tops and cell phones. Do you think we'll get an accounting?

I keep thinking that Indiana Jones is going to come sliding in. We could probably use him about now.

Missizzy said:

The crypt was sealed in 1926? What on earth could they be looking for? Why would documents be sealed inside a crypt when they could have been burned? Could it be to gather DNA or to check for a child's remains? I guess to me, as a non-Catholic, that is the biggest mystery. And I'd also like to hear what was on those lap tops and cell phones. Do you think we'll get an accounting?

I keep thinking that Indiana Jones is going to come sliding in. We could probably use him about now.

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Izzy Indiana Jones has to take off his hat first if he goes into Church. Naturally.

Izzy about the crypt. We put alot of things in crypts. We put Saints in crypts. We keep relics of bones and clothing. We have museums of implements of self mortification for heaven's sake. Anything could be in that crypt.

Again, I'm just speaking of my experience as a Catholic. The Pope just had a meeting with a prelate in May from Belgium. Hmmmmmmm.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/03/belgian-prelate-talk-pope-painful-scandal-bishop-abused-boy/

Filly said:

Because we are Catholics. We're like the Mafia. You never get out!

PG if every organized Religion has members that just up and quit because a clergy or a deacon or Rabbi abused children there'd be no more organized Religion.

Trust you me I am not excusing the cover up or now I see the Pope all mad about the raid. No excuse. It's vile and awful the things that have been done to our children. Worse is the men that knew it was going on and continued to let it go on. However, this is not every Priest. There are still people that have Faith in the Catholic Church. I can absolutely understand why someone wouldn't understand it, but they do have Faith.

Just Filly's opinion.

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Filly, I for one don't think you are excusing anyone's bad behavior, and your view on this subject is obviously thoughtful.

I am just as horrified as everyone else that so many priests used the power of their position to victimize children. Yet I am also aware that though far too many in number, the perpetrators are still just a small percentage of priests.

What is even more horrifying to me, however, is the extensive cover-up, apparently even at the highest levels of the Church. There is no question that many, maybe even most, Church authorities put the convenience and comfort of the institution (not to mention their own careers) over the well-being of its most vulnerable members. At least with the actual pedophiles, we can recognize their illness, even without excusing their behavior. But how else can we judge their bureaucratic accomplices, who made rational decisions to abet evil, except to condemn in the harshest terms the obvious evil of those decisions!

The instinct to protect the institution is common to most bureaucracies, human nature being what it is. HOWEVER, I find it hard to understand how Catholics can continue to pretend that the Church is God's representative on Earth, not when the entire institution has behaved in such an ungodly manner.

This scandal needn't destroy anyone's faith in God or even their trust in the vast numbers of individual priests who deserve our respect and gratitude for their devotion to piety and good works. (The priests I have known personally are been great humanitarians, in my judgment.)

But IMHO every Catholic should be reconsidering his or her support of a bureaucratic hierarchy we now know to be an "evil empire" indeed. How can anyone put a dime in a collection plate, knowing that money may go toward protecting and enabling child molesters, or at least toward protecting and enabling those who have shielded molesters in the past?

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Okay, there. I've said it. Mods will delete this if necessary. In my view, however, I am not attacking anyone's religion. The issue here is institution crimes and misconduct, not theology.

Nova said:

But IMHO every Catholic should be reconsidering his or her support of a bureaucratic hierarchy we now know to be an "evil empire" indeed. How can anyone put a dime in a collection plate, knowing that money may go toward protecting and enabling child molesters, or at least toward protecting and enabling those who have shielded molesters in the past?

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Well said, Nova. You mean support them financially? Honestly I haven't done that since my DD got out of grade school. You know "the envelope" and such.

O/T sort of. I always wondered how much of that money went towards helping our Nuns. I had Sister's Of Saint Joseph. These women are now if still alive very elderly. Other Nuns care for them. Basically I think any money that supports them wouldn't come from collection? I'd put money in the basket for the Sister's any old day. They're not in on the cover up.

Thank you Nova.

This is my first time linking something, so I hope I do this right. This article appeared today in the newspaper.

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=IH2S6IQD

“BRUSSEL - Jan Hertogen, slachtoffer van seksueel misbruik in de Kerk, roept alle lotgenoten die zich door het gerecht bedrogen voelen, op zich als 'benadeelde persoon' te melden.

Voor het eerst sinds de commissie-Adriaenssens klachten over seksueel misbruik in de Kerk verzamelde en het gerecht alle dossiers in beslag nam, krijgt het misbruik ook een gezicht. De 63-jarige socioloog Jan Hertogen werd als tiener in de jeugdbeweging misbruikt. Hij komt daar nu openlijk voor uit. 'Omdat ik alle slachtoffers een gezicht wil geven, zodat het gerecht weet over welke mensen het gaat.'

Hertogen deed zijn verhaal aan de commissie toen de zaak rond ex-bisschop Roger Vangheluwe losbarstte. Hij wilde niet dat het gerecht daarvan op de hoogte werd gebracht. Gisteren meldde hij zich bij het parket van Brussel om zich als 'benadeelde persoon' te laten registreren. Zo heeft hij het recht om te worden geïnformeerd over wat de onderzoeksrechter met zijn dossier zal doen.”

Brussels – Jan Hertogen – victim of sexual abuse in the Church calls on all fellow victims, who feel cheated by the courts, to proclaim themselves “disadvantaged” people.

For the first time since the Commission Adriaenssens collected complaints about sexual abuse in the church and that the Judicials confiscated all the files, the abused have a face. 63-year old sociologist Jan Hertogen was abused in the youth movement (could be scouting or one of the many other youth movement – is not specified). He acknowledges this openly – “Because I want to give all victims a face, so that the courts know which people it is about.

Hertogen told his story to the Commission when the Affair around Bishop Roger Vangheluwe broke. But he didn’t want the courts to become involved. Yesterday he reported to the Investigating Judge (Prosecution) to proclaim himself a “disadvantaged” person. In doing this he has the right to be informed about what the Investigating Judge will do with his file.

More in article - unfortunately it's in Dutch.

I just find it strange.

I did the whole nine yards when my daughter was in Catholic school too. Now, I just flat out couldn't walk in the door. I cringe and my stomach tightens at the very thought of it.

Filly said:

Again, I'm just speaking of my experience as a Catholic. The Pope just had a meeting with a prelate in May from Belgium. Hmmmmmmm.

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Yes, this was just after the scandal of the Bishop of Bruges broke. Of course we don't know what was said there.......

And then this small article appeared in a newspaper today http://www.gva.be/nieuws/binnenland/aid949685/zijn-huiszoekingen-tegen-kerk-een-complot-van-de-loge.aspx

The search could be a conspiracy against the church set up by the Masons