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Thread: Questions for our VERIFIED LAWYERS*~*~*NO DISCUSSIONS*~*~*

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by desquire View Post
    Typically, the FBI would only be involved if it related to a suspected violation of federal law or if it related to a missing person under 12 years of age.

    Police must demonstrate to a judge that probable cause exists to believe that the thing being sought will be found in the place to be searched. "Probable cause" is a relatively low burden of proof but still requires a showing of some credible testimony or facts.
    What about the BAU?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimster View Post
    Have any of our verified lawyers ever charged a $350,000 retainer fee???
    Not me. But then again, I have never represented someone in a high profile imminent murder case and I never will!!
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  4. #128
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    Can a person called before the GJ talk to the media or is his/her appearance confidential? I know from Drew Peterson's GH hearing, the jurors couldn't speak to the media - is that true for all states. TIA
    Please think long and hard before calling a child a 'run-a-way':
    You might be giving a 'perk' to the 'perp'.


    Democracy requires the occasional necessity of deferring to the opinions of other people. (Winston Churchill)

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  6. #129
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    Would Teri's attorney know ahead of time...the GJ was meeting in regards to this case that involves/surrounds her ????

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  8. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyes4crime View Post
    Can a person called before the GJ talk to the media or is his/her appearance confidential? I know from Drew Peterson's GH hearing, the jurors couldn't speak to the media - is that true for all states. TIA
    I'm not sure what the rule is in Oregon. I reviewed the statutes and didn't see anything about witnesses being sworn to secrecy--only jurors. Also, I believe the witnesses would have a First Amendment right to disclose information known by them, even if they cannot disclose what actually happened during the grand jury proceedings (e.g., what questions were asked).

    E.g., if someone said to DDS, "Did you meet up with Terri on June 4?" IMO the State of Oregon could not prohibit her from answering just because the grand jury might have asked her the same question.

    Quote Originally Posted by kappy50 View Post
    Would Teri's attorney know ahead of time...the GJ was meeting in regards to this case that involves/surrounds her ????
    Probably not.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  10. #131
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    If Kyron was kidnapped and taken across state lines, wouldn't that make it a case for the FBI to be called in on?
    (Lindberg Law)

    If so, does that exclude parental kidnapping and would Terri be considered a parent as Kyron's stepmother?

    TIA

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  12. #132
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    I know LDT results cannot be used as evidence in a trial. Can it even be discussed in front of a GJ? TIA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    If Kyron was kidnapped and taken across state lines, wouldn't that make it a case for the FBI to be called in on?
    (Lindberg Law)

    If so, does that exclude parental kidnapping and would Terri be considered a parent as Kyron's stepmother?

    TIA
    Yes, an interstate kidnapping would be an FBI matter. I do not think parental kidnapping would be any exception, and in any event unless there was a step-parent adoption, I do not believe Terri would be considered Kyron's "parent."

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I know LDT results cannot be used as evidence in a trial. Can it even be discussed in front of a GJ? TIA.
    The evidentiary rules are a little looser than at trial, but still I don't believe any state in the country would allow LDT results to be presented to a GJ as evidence of probable cause.

    I look at LDTs as a somewhat more sophisticated version of a LE officer saying, "That guy sure acts nervous. We ought to check out his story a little more."

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  15. #134
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    If Terri were to admit to her lawyer that she harmed Kyron or had him in hiding somewhere, what would the lawyer do? Would it be kept confidential ? Does a lawyer ask if his client did it? Or would they rather not know? Thanks

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  17. #135
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    Yes, Ruby Red has posted something much similar to what I'd like to know, how exactly does this work? I know there have had to be clients that over the course of time have confided in their atty that they are guilty of the crime and here is where the body is hidden. This has had to have happened several times, so whats the policy? what does a defense atty do?... And esp. if the case is this precious innocent young child like Kyron? would they just continuing to represent the murderer and continue letting parents of such child suffer when the atty knows who the killer was and where the body is? This is something I have wondered for quite some time? TIA..
    The quickest way to become a fool is to argue with one..

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  19. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyRed View Post
    If Terri were to admit to her lawyer that she harmed Kyron or had him in hiding somewhere, what would the lawyer do? Would it be kept confidential ? Does a lawyer ask if his client did it? Or would they rather not know? Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
    Yes, Ruby Red has posted something much similar to what I'd like to know, how exactly does this work? I know there have had to be clients that over the course of time have confided in their atty that they are guilty of the crime and here is where the body is hidden. This has had to have happened several times, so whats the policy? what does a defense atty do?... And esp. if the case is this precious innocent young child like Kyron? would they just continuing to represent the murderer and continue letting parents of such child suffer when the atty knows who the killer was and where the body is? This is something I have wondered for quite some time? TIA..
    No, the attorney could not reveal his client's confession or information about where the body is, and certainly would not have to withdraw from the representation. The vast majority of criminal defendants are, in fact, guilty, so a criminal defense lawyer who insisted on representing only innocent people would get hungry pretty fast. My understanding is that defense attorneys discourage their clients from telling them such information, however, and focus on ensuring procedual fairness and getting the lowest possible sentence for a client who is obviously guilty.

    This is why I could never be a defense attorney. The ethics are too complex for me lol. I prefer to sleep at night.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  21. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    No, the attorney could not reveal his client's confession or information about where the body is, and certainly would not have to withdraw from the representation. The vast majority of criminal defendants are, in fact, guilty, so a criminal defense lawyer who insisted on representing only innocent people would get hungry pretty fast. My understanding is that defense attorneys discourage their clients from telling them such information, however, and focus on ensuring procedual fairness and getting the lowest possible sentence for a client who is obviously guilty.

    This is why I could never be a defense attorney. The ethics are too complex for me lol. I prefer to sleep at night.
    Thank you so very much, AZ.. You always respond so very quickly and it is so very much appreciated..

    However I was very afraid that this was something similar as to what you have let us know about defense attys... and believe me, I understand the whole right of even the guilty to a "fair" trial, but is it just me or does it seem as tho the "guilty" parties seem to have so many more rights than those of the poor, poor, innocent victims(and their fams that are left behind to live everyday having NO CLOSURE), especially in a case such as this with a small, innocent child... It just seems so VERY VERY WRONG in absolutely every single way... How can this be??
    That an official of the courts can be privy to such extremely crucial knowledge(such as the whereabouts of a babies body)and NOT be compelled to share this knowledge for the very sake of these parents whose hearts have been ripped from their very souls?? I just cannot make sense of this???!!!!...
    The quickest way to become a fool is to argue with one..

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  23. #138
    Hi AZ!

    If one is subpoenaed by a GJ, what can one say or not say prior to appearing? That one has been subpoenaed? When it is? Or?

    After appearing, what can one say? That one appeared? That one testified? That one did not testify? That one plead the fifth? Or?

    This is being discussed in this thread:
    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110943"]2010.08 03 - GJ Subpoena Issued To Another Friend Of Terri Horman - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    because an article was just published wherein a friend of Terri claims she has been subpoenaed and will appear on Thursday. Also I noticed KGW and Oregonian both reported that Kaine confirmed he appeared (not that he testified, just appeared), and he would not comment on what Desiree or Tony were there for.

    Thanks!

  24. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
    Thank you so very much, AZ.. You always respond so very quickly and it is so very much appreciated..

    However I was very afraid that this was something similar as to what you have let us know about defense attys... and believe me, I understand the whole right of even the guilty to a "fair" trial, but is it just me or does it seem as tho the "guilty" parties seem to have so many more rights than those of the poor, poor, innocent victims(and their fams that are left behind to live everyday having NO CLOSURE), especially in a case such as this with a small, innocent child... It just seems so VERY VERY WRONG in absolutely every single way... How can this be??
    That an official of the courts can be privy to such extremely crucial knowledge(such as the whereabouts of a babies body)and NOT be compelled to share this knowledge for the very sake of these parents whose hearts have been ripped from their very souls?? I just cannot make sense of this???!!!!...
    I assume this is a rhetorical question? People get confused about the phrase "officer of the court" and think it means more than it does. For me personally, I couldn't do this work, and I'm probably not the person to ask for an explanation of the social utility of the ethics rules as applied to criminal defense lawyers. All I can say is that it is generally accepted in the legal community that this system is better than any of the alternatives.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  26. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    Hi AZ!

    If one is subpoenaed by a GJ, what can one say or not say prior to appearing? That one has been subpoenaed? When it is? Or?

    After appearing, what can one say? That one appeared? That one testified? That one did not testify? That one plead the fifth? Or?

    This is being discussed in this thread:
    2010.08 03 - GJ Subpoena Issued To Another Friend Of Terri Horman - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


    because an article was just published wherein a friend of Terri claims she has been subpoenaed and will appear on Thursday. Also I noticed KGW and Oregonian both reported that Kaine confirmed he appeared (not that he testified, just appeared), and he would not comment on what Desiree or Tony were there for.

    Thanks!
    Hi, BeanE. The rules vary from state to state. I can't find anything in Oregon requiring the silence of a WITNESS (as opposed to a grand juror) on any subject. And I believe the US Supreme Court has explained that a grand jury witness has a First Amendment right to at least speak about the actual INFORMATION he or she knows, even if there is a state law preventing him or her from speaking about the specific testimony given to the grand jury.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  28. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    Hi, BeanE. The rules vary from state to state. I can't find anything in Oregon requiring the silence of a WITNESS (as opposed to a grand juror) on any subject. And I believe the US Supreme Court has explained that a grand jury witness has a First Amendment right to at least speak about the actual INFORMATION he or she knows, even if there is a state law preventing him or her from speaking about the specific testimony given to the grand jury.
    Section 132.330 - Submission of indictment by district attorney

    The district attorney may submit an indictment to the grand jury in any case when the district attorney has good reason to believe that a crime has been committed which is triable within the county. [Amended by 1973 c.836 47]

    Section 132.410 - Finding of indictment; filing; inspection

    An indictment, when found and indorsed, as provided in ORS 132.400 and 132.580, shall be filed with the clerk of the court, in whose office it shall remain as a public record. Upon being designated by the district attorney as confidential and until after the arrest of a defendant who has not been held to answer the charge, the indictment or any order or process in relation thereto shall not be inspected by any person other than the judge, the clerk of the court, the district attorney or a peace officer in the discharge of a duty concerning the indictment, order or process. [Amended by 1973 c.836 52; 1999 c.967 2]

    Section 132.420 - Disclosure relative to indictment not subject to inspection

    No grand juror, reporter or other person except the district attorney or a peace officer in the exercise of duties in effecting an arrest shall disclose any fact concerning any indictment while it is not subject to public inspection. [Amended by 1973 c.836 53]

    Section 132.990 - Premature inspection or disclosure of contents of indictment.

    Violation of ORS 132.420 or the prohibitions of ORS 132.410 is punishable as contempt.




    Could that be interpreted to mean witnesses (no other person shall disclose any fact concerning the indictment, order or process) It doesn't specify that its referring only to those working for the state or grand jury. It simply states no other person and shall not by any person. And until it's subject to public inspection, "no other person" can disclose any fact regarding the indictment.

    http://law.onecle.com/oregon/132-gra...her/index.html

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  30. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    Section 132.330 - Submission of indictment by district attorney

    The district attorney may submit an indictment to the grand jury in any case when the district attorney has good reason to believe that a crime has been committed which is triable within the county. [Amended by 1973 c.836 47]

    Section 132.410 - Finding of indictment; filing; inspection

    An indictment, when found and indorsed, as provided in ORS 132.400 and 132.580, shall be filed with the clerk of the court, in whose office it shall remain as a public record. Upon being designated by the district attorney as confidential and until after the arrest of a defendant who has not been held to answer the charge, the indictment or any order or process in relation thereto shall not be inspected by any person other than the judge, the clerk of the court, the district attorney or a peace officer in the discharge of a duty concerning the indictment, order or process. [Amended by 1973 c.836 52; 1999 c.967 2]

    Section 132.420 - Disclosure relative to indictment not subject to inspection

    No grand juror, reporter or other person except the district attorney or a peace officer in the exercise of duties in effecting an arrest shall disclose any fact concerning any indictment while it is not subject to public inspection. [Amended by 1973 c.836 53]

    Section 132.990 - Premature inspection or disclosure of contents of indictment.

    Violation of ORS 132.420 or the prohibitions of ORS 132.410 is punishable as contempt.




    Could that be interpreted to mean witnesses (no other person shall disclose any fact concerning the indictment, order or process) It doesn't specify that its referring only to those working for the state or grand jury. It simply states no other person and shall not by any person. And until it's subject to public inspection, "no other person" can disclose any fact regarding the indictment.

    http://law.onecle.com/oregon/132-gra...her/index.html
    No, the witnesses wouldn't know anything about the indictment, and "process" in this context means the kind of "process" that a "process server" handles, not the kind of "process" like "we sure had to go through a long process to get this indictment."

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  32. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    No, the witnesses wouldn't know anything about the indictment, and "process" in this context means the kind of "process" that a "process server" handles, not the kind of "process" like "we sure had to go through a long process to get this indictment."
    Thanks. I couldn't get past the "no other person"; seems a bit vague at least to me who knows nothing lol.

  33. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    Thanks. I couldn't get past the "no other person"; seems a bit vague at least to me who knows nothing lol.
    "any other person" means exactly that. It's not vague, it's broad. No one, other than those specifically identified, can see "the indictment or any order or process in relation thereto" until the defendant has been arrested, when they are not already in custody.

    eta: or disclose any facts relating to it...those provisions refer to an actual indictment. Not to disclosure of anything leading up to it in the GJ. Separate issue. Not sure if that's what you're wondering about.

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  35. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by wondering1 View Post
    "any other person" means exactly that. It's not vague, it's broad. No one, other than those specifically identified, can see "the indictment or any order or process in relation thereto" until the defendant has been arrested, when they are not already in custody.

    No grand juror, reporter or other person except the district attorney or a peace officer in the exercise of duties in effecting an arrest shall disclose any fact concerning any indictment while it is not subject to public inspection.

    That's what has me confuzzled. Testimony given wouldn't be considered a 'fact' concerning the indictment?

    I trust you two and I'm not arguing the point; just trying desperately to wrap my mind around this legalese.

  36. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by wondering1 View Post
    "any other person" means exactly that. It's not vague, it's broad. No one, other than those specifically identified, can see "the indictment or any order or process in relation thereto" until the defendant has been arrested, when they are not already in custody.

    eta: or disclose any facts relating to it...those provisions refer to an actual indictment. Not to disclosure of anything leading up to it in the GJ. Separate issue. Not sure if that's what you're wondering about.
    Ok, didn't see your edit when I posted; this is why I included this section:

    Section 132.330 - Submission of indictment by district attorney

    The district attorney may submit an indictment to the grand jury in any case when the district attorney has good reason to believe that a crime has been committed which is triable within the county.

    To me, that means the DA submits the indictment and then the grand jury hears testimony and views evidence, then votes on whether to indorse it. Which in my feeble mind reads as though the indictment is part of the process from the very start, and therefore the above restrictions would apply to witnesses as well ("no other person").

    That was the basis for my question and obvious confusion.

    Did that make sense?

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  38. #147
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    If Terri Horman were to be called to testify in front of ANY jury be it the Grand Jury or any other jury and she PLEADED THE 5TH, could she then be charged with 'not cooperating' and face jail time and fines?

    Thank you so much in advance for answering this, I have read this question over and over on many different news sites.

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    My son tells me that the DA can present a request for indictment, but the GJ can also decide to go with a lesser charge, if they feel the evidence is not sufficient. For instance, the DA can present a charge of 1st degree homicide, and the GJ can indict on a lesser charge... 2nd degree or manslaughter.
    Or they can 'no bill' the whole thing and then the DA can present the case to them at a later time if they find more evidence (and in the hopes there will be a different GJ.) He said some cases have been brought before a GJ several times before they secure an indictment.

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  41. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    No grand juror, reporter or other person except the district attorney or a peace officer in the exercise of duties in effecting an arrest shall disclose any fact concerning any indictment while it is not subject to public inspection.

    That's what has me confuzzled. Testimony given wouldn't be considered a 'fact' concerning the indictment?

    I trust you two and I'm not arguing the point; just trying desperately to wrap my mind around this legalese.
    No, testimony given would not be a fact concerning the indictment.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBsleuthin View Post
    If Terri Horman were to be called to testify in front of ANY jury be it the Grand Jury or any other jury and she PLEADED THE 5TH, could she then be charged with 'not cooperating' and face jail time and fines?

    Thank you so much in advance for answering this, I have read this question over and over on many different news sites.
    No way. That's the whole point of the 5th Amendment--you can't be punished criminally for refusing to talk.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  43. #150
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    So many legal questions - sorry.

    Can the GJ request information that would enhance their understanding in a case? For instance: Can the GJ request that a subpoena be issued for Terri's bank statements? TIA
    Please think long and hard before calling a child a 'run-a-way':
    You might be giving a 'perk' to the 'perp'.


    Democracy requires the occasional necessity of deferring to the opinions of other people. (Winston Churchill)

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