705 users online (76 members and 629 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 144
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,868

    The Turtleneck Theory

    Thought I might review some of the crime-scene evidence from a different perspective e.g. that of the parents, but from what might be their staged point of view?

    I may have omitted some forensic evidence or forgotten some stuff, but I'm sure the IDI people will soon remind us.

    So for SuperDave I'll expand from a another thread and court controversy e.g. that apart from her Prior Vaginal Trauma everything found at the crime-scene including her death may be staging to hide another crime?

    Susan Bennett aka Jameson communicated to Lou Smit that child pornography allegedly displaying the daughter of Ramsey housekeeper Lindsay Hoffman-Pugh in an explicit sexual pose had been discovered on the internet.

    John Ramsey stated that it was at JonBenet's insistence that he and Patsy allowed JonBenet to launch her beauty pageant career, all at the age of four. Here John is suggesting that JonBenet's pageant activities, with their adult themes, do not originate either from the Ramsey parents or the Paugh family, but from JonBenet herself.

    In the summer of 1994, the Paughs held their family reunion in Charlevoix Michigan at the Ramsey’s summer home. The annual talent show was also a part of the reunion. Good, bad or indifferent—everyone had to perform on the makeshift stage on their back porch, overlooking Round Lake harbor. JonBenét and her cousin Jenny ( she of the size-12's ) sang a duet, “I was raised on Country Sunshine.” They looked so cute in their Daisy Mae cutoffs and pigtails.

    Patsy's sisters Polly and Pam as well as Nedra Paugh were enthusiastically involved in JonBenet's Pageant career cum hobby. They helped source party dresses and material to create new costumes. When Patsy won the Miss West Virginia Pageant she had had been wearing a Ziegfeld Follies costume, so she knew what wowed the judges. This was later translated to JonBenet when she appeared as a Ziegfeld Follies girl. In the summer of 1996, JonBenét went prepared to the national Sunburst pageant in Atlanta. For her talent she sang “Cowboy’s Sweetheart,” a song chosen by Aunt Pam and Nedra from Don Paugh's large selection of country music CD’s.

    Prior to her death Patsy Ramsey called Dr. Beuf three times (reason unknown) about JonBenet. One person who had prior contact with JonBenet was Don Paugh (Patsy's father), he was a guest at the Ramsey's Christmas party Dec. 23, 1996, he also helped with JonBenet during the Boulder Christmas parade.

    So including JonBenet's naked corpse here is a possible list of staged forensic evidence:

    1. White blanket
    2. Pink nightgown
    3. Cord
    4. Duct tape.
    5. Size-12 underwear
    6. White Gap top
    7. White long underwear
    8. Broken garrote handle
    9. Ponytails on her head
    10. Circumferential furrow.
    11. Craniocerebral injuries
    12. Ransom note
    13. The pen
    14. The Pad
    15. The practise notes
    16. Splinter

    It appears to me that John and Patsy look at the crime-scene from a different perspective, that is initially John states he read to both children, whilst Patsy states she redressed JonBenet in the red turtle neck which was later found balled up in the bathroom. Both these statements were retracted, denied or mis-remembered depending on their alleged source.

    So was it Patsy who staged acrime-scene redressing JonBenet in her red turtle neck, possibly restyling her hair into pigtails etc.

    Did John then attempt to restage the crime-scene recognising that some elements were very suspicious?

    Or was JonBenet's death a direct result of sexual assault and the rest a staged coverup?

    Lets consider a possible course of events e.g. at some point after arriving back from the White's JonBenet consumes some pineapple e.g. this tells us she is awake, not asleep as her parent claim. Shortly after this she is dead.

    Also accepting
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249
    Or, since evidence suggests she was on her stomach when strangled (the anterior urine stains and the knot at the back of the neck), her arms may have been in that position (bent at the elbow against her chest underneath her) and remained that way. However, this is less likely because of the livor mortis pattern, which tells us that she was placed on her back within the first 15-20 minutes of death, probably before rigor in her arms would have gotten to that stage.
    she was placed into the wine-cellar within the 15-20 minutes of death suggests she was either killed upstairs and quickly moved downstairs all it all occurred downstairs. A version of events that does not tally with Steve Thomas' bedwetting theory.

    And of course the allege urine stain outside the wine-cellar seems at variance with a child who had just emptied her bladder upstairs? If you accept JonBenet emptied her bladder upon death down in the basement then must she have been killed there? Also if JonBenet was carried downstairs wrapped in a blanket, how come there is a urine stain on the floor, should the blanket not have soaked it up, that is when was she wrapped in the blanket and why?

    So could JonBenet actually have been nude when sexually assaulted and killed then redressed to suit whatever staging seemed appropriate?

    Could John have intended to redress JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown, since this would be more indicitive of a bedroom abduction, than her white gap-top? Was John restaging a prior staged crime-scene?

    http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...w-Complete.htm
    LOU SMIT: I would like to
    17 show you photograph number 145, and this
    18 is a photograph of the wine cellar and it
    19 was taken at after the body was found.
    20 But John, I would like you just to take
    21 look at this, and again difficult
    22 photograph, but tell us what you see.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's looking
    24 in the room from the door, I see the blanket
    25 that looks like the one that was around her.
    0687
    *1 There is a pink something, pink -- I think
    *2 that's the nightgown or.
    *3 LOU SMIT: That's what I was
    *4 going to inquire about. It is a
    *5 nightgown, it is a pink one, it is a
    *6 Barbie nightgown?
    *7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like
    *8 it's a shinier material than I remember.
    *9 (INAUDIBLE). That looks more like what I
    10 kind of remember was on the Barbie doll
    11 itself.
    12 LOU SMIT: That one does?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If I had to
    14 speculate, that looks too shiny, the material,
    15 but it seems to me I remember that Barbie doll
    16 had a shiny pink nightgown thing on it.
    ...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,868
    ...

    Carrying on, what was the cause of death? Dr Meyer was not certain since he quoted both :
    Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
    trauma.
    So was JonBenet strangled first then whacked on the head, or was this reversed or even some initial assault which was then attempted to be concealment by violent staging including use of a ligature, whack on the head and a sexual assault, thus leaving a splinter inside her?

    Could Patsy have staged the ligature and sexual assault part, but John staged the head whack and attempted to hide the sexual assault, but missing out on the barbie nightgown due to rigor-mortis, that is both allegedly could be hiding prior crimes?

    If JonBenet was simply abducted from bed taken to the basement, sexually assaulted, then garroted etc, why bother with the long johns, the white blanket, the duct-tape on her mouth, her restraints, her size-12's? Her assailant only needs to escape the house after the violent assault, and not bother with redressing JonBenet in clothing that is out of place.

    So with JonBenet's redressing e.g. her size-12's, possibly even the White Gap top, with the red turtle neck washed and balled up in the bathroom, possibly after dispensing with the flashlight? Was the pink barbie nightgown a recognition that the White Gap Top must mean she went straight to bed, else she would be wearing pajamas, and where did the size-6 underwear that JonBenet had worn to the White's Xmas Party go. Were these stained and what with, blood or semen or both, why wipe JonBenet down if a sexual assault was intended as staging, why not leave her size-6 underwear on her?

    It looks like to me that the only part of JonBenet's homicide that may not have been staged was her Prior Vaginal Trauma. This was for real, it was not fake or even staged. Dr. Meyer described it in part as Digital Penetration alluding to the Prior part.


    .

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,970

    prior sexual assault

    This could be one of the issues ST didn't lie about ,because of the way he talks about it in his depo.
    I always thought that if it's true and she was sexually abused (even if for once) before the murder,get the abuser and you'll have your killer or at least the motive of the crime.
    Some implied that this prior abuse could have been corporal punishment.(PR being mad because she wet/soiled the bed)
    But then why does ST say
    pg 253
    "We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries "consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse" "Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse".
    The rice is already cooked...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,970

    re the splinter

    ST,page 254

    "Although the source of the splinter was never definitely proved,.........."

    doesn't matter what he adds next "I considered it highly unlikely" bla bla who cares!
    The rice is already cooked...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,970

    Spitz seems to have a unique theory as well,interesting

    -first there had been a manual strangulation
    -then came the devastating blow to the head
    -followed by the garrote strangulation
    The rice is already cooked...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,970
    So both Wecht and Spitz think that strangulation came first.Interesting.
    The rice is already cooked...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    South
    Posts
    3,835

    There is such a thing as incest and molestation...

    Hello WS

    I really try to stop wondering about this case, it works for a while...but I have to say as time goes by I think more and more that JonBenet was being molested.

    What could cause two parents to stage a horrible scene like they did? They had to make what happened to JonBenet "more" horrible than what was happening to her anyway. There was NO WAY they could be "caught" with the ugly secret so many family's hold. Incest and molestation of the children in their families.

    No intruder came into their house and went though all that IDI want you to think. It is counter intuitive. John and Patsy Ramsey were not being truthful in anything they had to say: they are lying. Why are they lying? Because they had/have something to hide.

    There is still some information that is hidden in this case, it is the "thing" that makes you unable to really "see" into this case. I will sound like a crazy person now and say that I have intuition that bugs me every moment of every day...

    but I have almost zero intuition when it comes to this case. The only "fact" that keeps on tap, tapping me on the shoulder is that JonBenet was being molested. And, she was being molested with her parents knowledge and permission. It's what was happening in my husband's family. Both his sisters where being molested by their uncle and the whole family knew about it. In some families this is a very "normal" thing. Sorry and sad to say.

    People see the Ramsey's and say they are too good of a family for that to have been happening and they not have known about it or do anything about it: in my personal experience they act just like a family that is hiding that secret.

    John 14:6

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,868
    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    So both Wecht and Spitz think that strangulation came first.Interesting.
    madeleine,
    Sure and there may have been more than one strangulation. The one with the circumferential furrow maybe no more than staging done by Patsy?

    It may have really been John who killed JonBenet whacking her on the head with the flashlight?

    Its open to debate either way, but the staging offers a hint, since killing JonBenet outright with a ligature, then does not require, restraints, duct-tape, or a head bash and internal assault using a paintbrush handle e.g. visually JonBenet is dead and the ligature suggests why?


    .

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,970
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,
    Sure and there may have been more than one strangulation. The one with the circumferential furrow maybe no more than staging done by Patsy?

    It may have really been John who killed JonBenet whacking her on the head with the flashlight?

    Its open to debate either way, but the staging offers a hint, since killing JonBenet outright with a ligature, then does not require, restraints, duct-tape, or a head bash and internal assault using a paintbrush handle e.g. visually JonBenet is dead and the ligature suggests why?


    .
    To be honest I will never be able to tell what is part of the staging (if there's one) and what not.If staging it's too much and too horrible and you gotta be sick in the head to do that to your child only to cover your @ss.There must be something else IMO.
    It makes more sense that it was an overkill/rage attack and everything was real,RDI or IDI,God knows,I don't anymore.Someone lost it and couldn't stop.It happens.But who is that someone.But this doesn't explain the prior sexual abuse (if true) and everyone in Boulder ( in high places) covering it up.If your wife is a psycho angry person why risk everything for her,why send her on national TV (while on meds) and risk her saying something stupid and incriminating.
    The rice is already cooked...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,970
    IF she was indeed strangled with the garrote that would point to IDI.He was wearing gloves and didn't care about leaving it there,+ it was another message he left.

    IF RDI and she was strangled with it then why did they leave it there?Doesn't make sense,so I guess she was initially strangled with something else first yes and the garrote is part of a sick staging.
    The rice is already cooked...


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiquita71 View Post
    Hello WS

    I really try to stop wondering about this case, it works for a while...but I have to say as time goes by I think more and more that JonBenet was being molested.

    What could cause two parents to stage a horrible scene like they did? They had to make what happened to JonBenet "more" horrible than what was happening to her anyway. There was NO WAY they could be "caught" with the ugly secret so many family's hold. Incest and molestation of the children in their families.

    No intruder came into their house and went though all that IDI want you to think. It is counter intuitive. John and Patsy Ramsey were not being truthful in anything they had to say: they are lying. Why are they lying? Because they had/have something to hide.

    There is still some information that is hidden in this case, it is the "thing" that makes you unable to really "see" into this case. I will sound like a crazy person now and say that I have intuition that bugs me every moment of every day...

    but I have almost zero intuition when it comes to this case. The only "fact" that keeps on tap, tapping me on the shoulder is that JonBenet was being molested. And, she was being molested with her parents knowledge and permission. It's what was happening in my husband's family. Both his sisters where being molested by their uncle and the whole family knew about it. In some families this is a very "normal" thing. Sorry and sad to say.

    People see the Ramsey's and say they are too good of a family for that to have been happening and they not have known about it or do anything about it: in my personal experience they act just like a family that is hiding that secret.

    Chiquita71,
    You are not alone a lot of people share your intuition. An accident simply required 911. But Prior Vaginal Trauma required a lot of explaning away and that this was even attempted suugests prior knowledge on either or both parents behalf. Patsy never batted an eyelid when confronted with it during an interview.

    My money is on both parents and the extended family knowing hence the ongoing silence.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,299
    Dr. Meyer never alluded to anything. He completed an autopsy report that contained his observations. He wasn't confused about the cause of death. The implication that he alluded to something is simply your way to read more into the report than what is really there. To get it to say stuff you want it to say instead of what it really says.

    The theory is entitled the turtleneck theory, but there's no turtleneck anywhere in it. Where did that go?

    I suggest reviewing your theory and please take note of how many question marks you have. Maybe you'll have fewer questions when we all have at least an inkling of what really happened???????????

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Dr. Meyer never alluded to anything. He completed an autopsy report that contained his observations. He wasn't confused about the cause of death. The implication that he alluded to something is simply your way to read more into the report than what is really there. To get it to say stuff you want it to say instead of what it really says.

    The theory is entitled the turtleneck theory, but there's no turtleneck anywhere in it. Where did that go?

    I suggest reviewing your theory and please take note of how many question marks you have. Maybe you'll have fewer questions when we all have at least an inkling of what really happened???????????
    Holdontoyourhat,

    Dr. Meyer never alluded to anything. well he did, and it was digital penetration and since there was no rape involved, this then codes for sexual abuse, later translated into a more politically correct Prior Vaginal Trauma.

    2nd Addendum of Dec. 29, 1996

    Your Affiant James Byfield, is a duly commissioned police officer with the Boulder Police Department. After being duly sworn, Your Affiant states the following:

    Your Affiant is currently assigned to the Detective Division of the Boulder Police Department and is currently involved un the investigation of the circumstances leading to the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a six year old girl whose death was discovered on December 26, 1996;

    ...

    Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact For further details on the autopsy see the attached document entitled Addendum To Search Warrant.
    I never said that he was confused, that is your word.
    He wasn't confused about the cause of death.
    I said he was uncertain so he cited two possible causes leading to asphyxia, strangulation and/or Craniocerebral injuries.

    For your benefit I'll say that Dr Meyer did not allude, but stated that JonBenet had been sexually assaulted.

    The turtleneck theory suggests that JonBenet may have been wearing it , but that it was changed for the White Gap top, soon to have been replaced by the pink barbie nightgown else why was it left beside her in the wine-cellar, her size06 underwear was not.

    As usual the question marks are for your assistance, they are intended as an aid to your comprehension.


    .

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,970
    But a turtleneck is kinda uncomfortable to wear when going to bed.I for example couldn't sleep in one,I'd choke.I wouldn't put my kid to bed in one either.
    The rice is already cooked...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    South
    Posts
    3,835
    What makes me happy about this case is this: it was the last time people denied parents ability to kill their own children. This case was back in a time when "good" people just could not allow themselves to believe other "good" people would do something like that to their child.

    If you have been on WS for any amount of time, or if you haven't-peruse the front page sometime and see what "good" parents are capable of doing to their children.

    And personally I feel, all the secrecy(and smoke and mirrors) around this case proves that very powerful people had a hand in the cover up of this crime. Since JVS was arrested for the murder of SF, I started to read about his case. What happened in Aruba to cover for JVS, I feel happened in Boulder, for the Ramseys.

    Fat Cats live in a very different world than (some)of us. Didn't John and Patsy say they "didn't know any one that evil?"

    ETA: Patsy's psychiatrist diagnosed Pasty with PTSD, after what happened to JonBenet. That is understandable: what is hinky is the fact that Patsy admitted she had "flashbacks" of JonBenet screaming. According to Patsy, she never heard JonBenet scream.

    John 14:6

Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. The Red Turtleneck
    By tumble in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 11-14-2016, 11:01 PM
  2. Girl with turtleneck turned up to midriff
    By Filly in forum Alcala and the Unidentified
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 10-27-2014, 08:08 PM
  3. Chaos Theory-A Unified Theory of Muppet Types
    By Jacie Estes in forum Up to the Minute
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-09-2012, 12:21 PM
  4. The Red Turtleneck....
    By Ames in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-31-2007, 10:49 PM
  5. The red turtleneck
    By T-Rex in forum JonBenet Ramsey
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-31-2006, 11:56 AM