If no one at school "saw" anything..why not?

I was thinking about this yesterday and suddenly a partial explanation came to me. Try this the next time you are in church, in a workplace, at a PTO meeting...anywhere where there are a lot of people you at least KNOW BY SIGHT...if not as friends.

What do you notice?

Not what looks right, what looks like you always see it.

You notice what looks different.

A family in a pew who has an additional child with them; a person standing by the water cooler you have never seen before; a man sitting at a restaurant table with a woman you know is not his wife. Someone you've never seen before in a place where you visit often and know pretty much everyone by sight.

The things that are "off"...we remember. The things that "fit"...no reson to retain.

In any place we visit that has a regular "population", I think our minds "store" certain faces and combination of faces. This is why we can tell a family in church has brought an additional child...we may not KNOW them...but we see them as a "set."

This is another reason I have trouble accepting a stranger abduction. Kyron walking with his Stepmom anywhere that day...would NOT be memorable. They would just fade into a sea of "what we expect to see."

But Kyron ANYWHERE that day...with someone else's Dad or a stranger...I think at least some people would have registered ..."HMMM...That's different." and remembered.

We remember what seems "off" or different even when benign. When everything is as it should be...there is nothing to recall.

Just a point to ponder....

stmarysmead said:

I was thinking about this yesterday and suddenly a partial explanation came to me. Try this the next time you are in church, in a workplace, at a PTO meeting...anywhere where there are a lot of people you at least KNOW BY SIGHT...if not as friends.

What do you notice?

Not what looks right, what looks like you always see it.

You notice what looks different.

A family in a pew who has an additional child with them; a person standing by the water cooler you have never seen before; a man sitting at a restaurant table with a woman you know is not his wife. Someone you've never seen before in a place where you visit often and know pretty much everyone by sight.

The things that are "off"...we remember. The things that "fit"...no reson to retain.

In any place we visit that has a regular "population", I think our minds "store" certain faces and combination of faces. This is why we can tell a family in church has brought an additional child...we may not KNOW them...but we see them as a "set."

This is another reason I have trouble accepting a stranger abduction. Kyron walking with his Stepmom anywhere that day...would NOT be memorable. They would just fade into a sea of "what we expect to see."

But Kyron ANYWHERE that day...with someone else's Dad or a stranger...I think at least some people would have registered ..."HMMM...That's different." and remembered.

We remember what seems "off" or different even when benign. When everything is as it should be...there is nothing to recall.

Just a point to ponder....

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I absolutely and totally agree with you, and you stated your premise so well. On so many threads about this case, posters have talked about how it seems impossible that TH could have gone with Ky out to the parking lot without someone seeing and noticing that fact.

As you state, and I've always believed -- no one would have had any real reason to notice! Hence, TH was not bold or daring or taking a huge risk -- she knew enough to know that there would be no reason for someone to notice and remember her and Ky being together.......................

We see what we expect to see and what we have always seen. We only really notice if something is very different or unexpected in a really different way.

Thanks for a great post.

I agree.

When something appears 'normal' you may not take note of it. For example; there is a guy in my office building who does this fast-walk thing around the halls more than once a day. He passes my office and we exchange greetings.

Now, I couldn't tell you if he does it 2x a day or more. I couldn't tell you if he missed a day or if I last saw him doing it on Friday or Thursday. Though, I'm certain I'll notice today, now that I've brought it to my attention.

If some other guy suddenly took up this same path of walking, I believe I'd notice that and think "oh there's a new guy doing that fast-walk thingy."

I agree. What I find interesting in that scenario though is that Terri would have to have counted on teacher, student and other parents not noticing. Now were I doing something terrible, known only to me, I can't help but feel that in my imagination I would stick out like a sore thumb and all eyes would be on me. It wouldn't be true, probably no one would notice, but in my mind I'd imagine myself glowing like nuclear waste.

If this scenario turned out to be how it really happened, Terri would have to be one cool customer to count on human nature to help disguise her exit, and to believe that not one person would notice her for a completely oddball reason - like she was wearing the same color shirt as another parent that a teacher was looking for, so the teacher happened to see her and make mental note. [You know how sometimes when a criminal was apprehended, the citizen who called in their location noticed them for a completely innocent reason - like they had a sports team hat on the person liked, or the criminal's car was the same make and color as the person's wife's, etc].

Then again, if Terri did commit this crime she would have to have ice in her veins, so counting on human nature to hide her activities wouldn't be that much of a stretch of imagination!

I agree that people generally only notice non standard events, but a child walking "from" school "to" the parking lot with a parent when school was supposed to be starting is a non standard event. In a small school most parents know each other and the kids by sight. A mom would notice if a kid is leaving school when he should be going "in" to school. Most mothers have radar for illnesses that take place in a school environment, most mothers would wonder why a child was leaving that early in the day. They would have thought, "Why is Kyron leaving, is he not feeling well? I wonder if it's catching?" Especially since a weekend was approaching, no Mom wants their kids to "catch anything" on a Friday and be sick all weekend. I have felt that way when a Mom brought a sneezing kid to school for a while on a "special" day because she "knew he would be disappointed if she didn't bring him, and she was going to take him out early to go to the doctor". I resented the fact that my child was exposed when the kid should have been at home, missing the "special day".

Yeah... often the trick is to appear as normal as possible.

Otherwise I think it might be a timing factor. If Kyron was spirited away at about 8:45 or shortly thereafter by Terri or whoever it was when the children and the teachers had gathered in the classrooms and wouldn't have seen anything if they were concentrating on the tasks at hand instead of looking out of windows. Most of the parents still at the school were probably in the classrooms with their kids or just about to leave themselves.

Very good observations. And to add to that, when questioned by LE, they will ask us why or how we remember something.

If we say something along the lines of "he said he was going to see a cool electric project", a little kid might remember that because they want to see the cool electric project too.

If we say something like "I saw her around 8:40 a.m. & she said she was taking him to the doctor", LE would question us as to:

- are you sure it was her? (yes, I've known her for a year);

- how do you know what time it was? (I was keeping my eye on my watch because it was such a busy morning & I had to head back up to the classroom soon);

- are you positive that's what she said to you? (yes, because I asked her to repeat it louder in my other ear because I'm a bit deaf in one & the gym was noisy; also I was a bit annoyed that she chose that particular time to tell me - when I was so busy)

- what was she wearing? (I think a pink shirt but I really didn't notice what else)

LE knows how memory works - they want to know why or how we remember something because that's a test of reliability

Who I notice are those who are familiar to me. I don't notice others that much if I don't know who they are.

That is why I cant understand if Terri left with Kyron no one noticed. She was very familiar among the school by the staff, students and parents too.

I know this, I have five children and 12 grandchildren and I have always attended their schools for events and functions. I see people everywhere that I have known, each and every time I go, and believe me, they see me too.

I cant even get out of my vehicle without seeing someone I know, and they recognize me too and the same thing happens when I am inside, and even when I am leaving the parking lot after it is over or when I leave people are still coming in.

I could understand it maybe if Terri wasnt seen that much at school and the people didn't know Kyron very well but it seems a lot of people did, which is understandable since she had volunteered at the school for almost three years, and others seemed very aware that she was Kyron's mom.

Strange to me that neither one was seen leaving.

IMO

It may be important that the East side of the school doesn't appear to have windows that look directly onto the parking lot. That's the side of the school where the parking lot is located and she probably left through that exit. The windows in the gym are up high on the wall, as are the bottom floor windows since it is the basement. Maybe Terri calculated the line of sight working in her favor and chose a parking spot with that in mind.

But hadn't school already started? Was this a big event - the science fair? Did many parents show up that morning? If so, most would have left 'without' their child because they would have gone back to their regular class afterwards. If Terri did leave with Kyron, she would most likely have waited until most all parents left first, so they didn't notice her so obviously having her child with her. This always stands out to me, when I am at school for similar reasons. Would I remember exactly 'who' it was that left early? I think I would. And for that matter, there is no way to leave my kids' school without going through the office, for security reasons. Was this school not set up that way? It should be. That could be Terri's defense if it isn't secure. Providing that no other evidence links her to his disappearance.

oceanblueeyes said:

Who I notice are those who are familiar to me. I don't notice others that much if I don't know who they are.

That is why I cant understand if Terri left with Kyron no one noticed. She was very familiar among the school by the staff, students and parents too.

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Do we know that for sure? Certainly she was familiar to some of them but even if she was a frequent volunteer there might have been a bunch of parents who didn't know her because they don't spend much time at the school, and if she mostly volunteered in Kyron's class the students in other classes might not know her that well either.

It also depends on how big the circle of active parents is and how much they cooperate. If there are just a few volunteers and Terri was among the most active who took part in everything everybody might know her and she might stand out more than if there are a lot of parents who do things every once in a while. If they don't do many cooperative projects they might not know each other very well.

I know this, I have five children and 12 grandchildren and I have always attended their schools for events and functions. I see people everywhere that I have known, each and every time I go, and believe me, they see me too.

I cant even get out of my vehicle without seeing someone I know, and they recognize me too and the same thing happens when I am inside, and even when I am leaving the parking lot after it is over or when I leave people are still coming in.

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It might be a personality thing because I'm quite accustomed to attending school functions without being noticed by many people and without seeing many people that I know I also have some trouble in memory for faces and I have been known to talk to people who clearly know me and my children but I have no clue who they are unless they mention a name that I recognize.

I could understand it maybe if Terri wasnt seen that much at school and the people didn't know Kyron very well but it seems a lot of people did, which is understandable since she had volunteered at the school for almost three years, and others seemed very aware that she was Kyron's mom.

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We have heard the MSM interviews of a few parents and a handful of children who knew Kyron and Terri pretty well and described themselves as friends but IMO it doesn't mean that everyone was equally aware of them because the sample is probably biased and the media has been seeking the people who knew them to be interviewed. Practically no one would be interested in listening to interviews of people who say "Yeah, I heard that kid is missing, but I didn't know him, I know hardly any second graders because my kids are older, I've heard that his stepmom was at the school that morning but can't say that I've seen her, maybe I did maybe I didn't but I don't know her and I wasn't paying any attention, she looks a bit familiar so maybe I've seen her around but I really couldn't tell for sure."

Strange to me that neither one was seen leaving.

IMO

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FWIW the reporter in the video of TP said that TP's grandmother said he'd said that he'd seen Terri leaving. (Not sure if he meant that he saw her actually outside the building heading towards the parking lot or going towards the exit in the school building, or saying that she was leaving.

It appears that everyone assumed Kyron had a doctor's appointment, so it wouldn't have seemed out of the ordinary for people to have seen them leave at any given time, either separately or together.

The most simple explanation for the fact that no one saw TH leave with Kyron is that she didn't leave with him.... The questionnaire that LE had people fill out has me wondering ; there's a good possibility that a person or persons may have corroborated her story about leaving alone. If LE had even one person who could place TH and Kyron leaving together,or even in the parking lot, that would be enough for an arrest IMO...

All JMO

liz b. said:

The most simple explanation for the fact that no one saw TH leave with Kyron is that she didn't leave with him.... The questionnaire that LE had people fill out has me wondering ; there's a good possibility that a person or persons may have corroborated her story about leaving alone. If LE had even one person who could place TH and Kyron leaving together,or even in the parking lot, that would be enough for an arrest IMO...

All JMO

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Sure, but by that logic the most simple explanation for the fact that no one saw Kyron himself leaving the school is that he didn't leave the school --- only we know that's not the case because he's gone.

I'm not sure if anyone saw Terri leaving with or without Kyron (LE hasn't shared most of their evidence with us, so they might very well have witnesses) -- but no one saw ANYone leaving with Kyron as far as we know. Somehow he got out the door without anyone (we know of) seeing him. So it's as likely he could have exited with Terri as it is anyone else.

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

June 11, LE, Staton

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/11/oregon.missing.boy/index.html?section=cnn_latest

I don't think he left with Terri. I think he was hidden somewhere by someone else in and around the school. I do think she knew what was happening/

I am a teacher and I can tell you at the end of the day which children left with which parents and which left alone--and I have 300 students. Teachers are very attuned to where their kids are at all times. We can always remember the last time we saw a student.

I think it is impossible that Terri could have planned to leave with Kyron and expected nobody from the school would see her or remember seeing her.

It's also possible that no one saw them leaving together because they went out at different times. TH could have been waiting in the truck and Kyron went out by himself. If the classes were starting at the time he went out, it's possible that nobody saw him go out the door. If she had planned this in advance she could have made up many stories that would get him out of the school and back to the truck. Heck, she could have made up something on the spot if this was a spur of the moment idea.

SurfieTX said:

It appears that everyone assumed Kyron had a doctor's appointment, so it wouldn't have seemed out of the ordinary for people to have seen them leave at any given time, either separately or together.

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I don't think everyone there would assume that Kyron had a doctor's appointment.

Some of them wouldn't know and if they saw Terri and Kyron or if they saw them leaving together imo they would say "where are yall going it is only 8:45?" Example only. Or if they knew about the doctor's appointment they would still remember seeing them leave together imo.

If I had no clue about a doctor's appointment then if I was there and knew them both I would wonder why they were leaving since they were already there.

IMO

joeskidbeck said:

It's also possible that no one saw them leaving together because they went out at different times. TH could have been waiting in the truck and Kyron went out by himself. If the classes were starting at the time he went out, it's possible that nobody saw him go out the door. If she had planned this in advance she could have made up many stories that would get him out of the school and back to the truck. Heck, she could have made up something on the spot if this was a spur of the moment idea.

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That seems even more risky to me. Evidently the truck was known to belong to the Horman family and with her sitting outside it in like she is waiting after others had already seen Kyron with his friends inside touring the exhibits would be even more noticeable imo.

IMO

oceanblueeyes said:

That seems even more risky to me. Evidently the truck was known to belong to the Horman family and with her sitting outside it in like she is waiting after others had already seen Kyron with his friends inside touring the exhibits would be even more noticeable imo.

IMO

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I don't think people saw him and his friends touring the exhibits after she left because if they did LE wouldn't be reporting that she was the last known person to see him. If Kyron left with Terri maybe they used different exits or something but I think they must have left at about the same time if it's true that he was last seen at about 8:45 and that's when Terri left too.