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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
    Posts
    7,684

    CA - Ludlow, WhtFem UP2517, 17-22, buried w/ WhtMale UP2578, Nov'80

    The Doe Network:
    Hot Case 1278
    http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase1278.html
    NamUs UP Case 2517 https://identifyus.org/cases/2517

    No Image Available

    Unidentified White Female

    * The victim was discovered on November 17, 1980 near Ludlow, San Bernardino County, California
    * Estimated date of Death: 1-6 months prior
    * Partial Skeleton

    Vital Statistics

    * Estimated age: 17 - 22 years old
    * Approximate Height and Weight: 5' 5"; 115 lbs.
    * Distinguishing Characteristics: Light red/brown/blonde hair. Pierced left ear.
    * Jewelry: Yellow metal, 10-K, size 7 ring, with 7 glass stones, center glass stone missing.
    * Dentals: Available. Prim cuspid between 5, 6. Teeth 7, 10, 14 congenitally missing.
    * DNA: Complete - Profile available at state lab

    Case History
    The victim was located in the desert, about 5 miles east of Ludlow, California on November 17, 1980. She may possibly have been a nurse.
    Last edited by CarlK90245; 03-24-2013 at 10:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
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    7,684
    Adrianne Gilliam
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._adrianne.html



    Negatives:

    The height (5'8") is off by three inches. But the remains were skeletal, and height measurements are not precise.

    Positives:
    • She does have reddish blonde hair to match the UID
    • Her age (19) is within range (17-22)
    • Her weight (110 lbs) is close enough to the estimate (115 lbs)
    • Her DLC (22-Jun-1979) is 18 months prior to the Discovery Date (Postmortem interval of 1-6 months)
    • She was traveling on the road to correspond to the desolate desert location in which the UID was found.
    • DoeNet indicates that the UID may have been a nurse. Adrianne worked as a nurse's aide prior to her disappearance.


    Questions:
    • On what are they basing the statement that the UID may have been a nurse?
    • There is no indication of her dental description. It would be an easy comparison if they were available, as the UID was missing the two upper lateral incisors (7 and 10) congenitally, as was her upper-left-second-molar (#15). Too bad the photo of her teeth is not more clear, as the missing incisors would be easy to see.
    • The UID description indicates a pierced left ear. It's uncertain if her right ear was not pierced, or if the remains were too decomposed to tell.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    542
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    Adrianne Gilliam
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._adrianne.html



    Negatives:

    The height (5'8") is off by three inches. But the remains were skeletal, and height measurements are not precise.

    Positives:
    • She does have reddish blonde hair to match the UID
    • Her age (19) is within range (17-22)
    • Her weight (110 lbs) is close enough to the estimate (115 lbs)
    • Her DLC (22-Jun-1979) is 18 months prior to the Discovery Date (Postmortem interval of 1-6 months)
    • She was traveling on the road to correspond to the desolate desert location in which the UID was found.
    • DoeNet indicates that the UID may have been a nurse. Adrianne worked as a nurse's aide prior to her disappearance.


    Questions:
    • On what are they basing the statement that the UID may have been a nurse?
    • There is no indication of her dental description. It would be an easy comparison if they were available, as the UID was missing the two upper lateral incisors (7 and 10) congenitally, as was her upper-left-second-molar (#15). Too bad the photo of her teeth is not more clear, as the missing incisors would be easy to see.
    • The UID description indicates a pierced left ear. It's uncertain if her right ear was not pierced, or if the remains were too decomposed to tell.
    Her hair reminds me so very much of the girl in this Alcala photo at some sort of outdoor concert or similar event.
    http://cnnnancygrace.files.wordpress...0/03/01021.jpg

    Of course if she was an Alcala victim, latest possible date of death would have to put her significantly outside the earliest estimated date of death for that Doe. And the clothing in the Alcala photo seems a bit earlier than the late seventies, so she'd have to be someone he'd met once and got the details of then gone back for.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
    Posts
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    I dropped a quick e-mail to David Van Norman. He replied very promptly with the following message:

    These two cases have never been matched against each other, that I can see. However, both have DNA profiles in CODIS and the state DNA lab, and theoretically that means they are not a match.
    None of the publicly available info on AG indicated a CODIS entry, so I guess the only way to have found that out was to e-mail him as I did.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Coastal North Carolina
    Posts
    98

    Possible Mix up on NamUs?

    NamUs UP#2517
    Probable year of death 1980 to 1980
    Estimated postmortem interval 1 Months

    Circumstances
    Location Found
    GPS coordinates
    Address 1 5 miles east of Ludlow, south of SR 66
    Address 2
    City Ludlow
    State California
    Zip code 92357
    County San Bernardino
    Circumstances of death
    Remains of a young male and a young female were found in a shallow grave in remote desert area off of "Route 66." Identity can only be established by comparison of dental X-rays and DNA.
    Bold by me.
    I'm wondering if this is a NamUs mix up as this information is not listed in doe network. This young woman is the one who is possibly a nurse.
    All of the above is just my relaxed coastal Carolina opinion.
    Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all. ~ Dale Carnegie

  6. #6
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    Nov 2009
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    El Segundo, California
    Posts
    7,684
    I don't get where you are seeing a mix-up. NamUs 2517 is the female, and NamUs 2578 is the male.

    https://identifyus.org/cases/2578

    Route 66 is an old historic highway that has been mostly replaced by modern highways, but portions of it are still there.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Coastal North Carolina
    Posts
    98

    I'm the mixed up one... sorry

    Sorry, I was confused... perhaps I still am.
    All of the above is just my relaxed coastal Carolina opinion.
    Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all. ~ Dale Carnegie

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Northeast USA
    Posts
    3,538
    there is only one rule-out listed at Namus:

    REBECCA DUNN 1958 Nevada

    per namus this UID "had multiple gaps in her smile, both top and bottom, with congenitally missing lateral incisors and a retained primary right canine. Her smile was incredibly distinctive and should be recognizable on a photo."

    Carl, since you've had positive dealings with David Van Norman before, is there any way you might be able to get some image of the mouth? the teeth/smile were so distinctive, they think they could make a match by photos.

    "Possible identiifcation by comparison of "smiling photos" (showing teeth). "

  9. #9
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    El Segundo, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by webrocket View Post
    Carl, since you've had positive dealings with David Van Norman before, is there any way you might be able to get some image of the mouth? the teeth/smile were so distinctive, they think they could make a match by photos.

    "Possible identiifcation by comparison of "smiling photos" (showing teeth). "
    Done.

    I sent an e-mail to David VanNorman.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by webrocket View Post
    Carl, since you've had positive dealings with David Van Norman before, is there any way you might be able to get some image of the mouth? the teeth/smile were so distinctive, they think they could make a match by photos.

    "Possible identiifcation by comparison of "smiling photos" (showing teeth). "
    Done.

    I sent an e-mail to David VanNorman.
    VanNorman replied that there are six images uploaded to NamUs, but they are only visible to Law Enforcement users.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Northeast USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlK90245 View Post
    VanNorman replied that there are six images uploaded to NamUs, but they are only visible to Law Enforcement users.
    he is responsive. unfortunately the private photos don't help people like us.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    1,348
    I noticed that Kimberly Ann Kahler's page on the Doe Network and Charley Project
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._kimberly.html
    www.doenetwork.org/cases/942dfca.html
    both state that
    Kahler was last seen in Venice, California on January 1, 1980. She was accompanied by an unidentified male at the time of her disappearance.
    She has reddish-brown hair like the unknown woman, yet her height is a little taller and she is two years younger than the age estimate. The way that she is smiling in the photo looks like someone who is trying to hide her teeth (IMO), that, her hair color, and that she was with a male is what got my attention.


    I wonder why LE believes that the woman in Ludlow was a nurse?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    5,073
    Ludlow, California is on Highway 40. It is just north of the US Marine Corps Base, Twenty Nine Palms.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    542
    Deborah Susan Balken was an Australian nurse with quite a distinctive smile, missing in Australia 1st July 1980. Her female friend/flatmate also went missing, they'd phoned their fellow flatmate during a night out and said they would be away until the 18th, then they failed to return at all. Sounds about the right timeframe for if they'd organised to do a run as drug couriers, or even were being used as unwitting drug mules. Or maybe to help body pack, because they were both nurses. Since a smiling photo comparison is quick, cheap and easy, it might be worth running her smiling photo past the person in charge of the Doe's case.

    http://www.missingpersons.gov.au/mis...rah-susan.aspx
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/223dfnsw.html

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    414
    https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/11582/2

    Barbara Bruno is a possibility.

    Case Information

    Date LKA August 01, 1980
    Age LKA 18 to 19 years old
    Race White
    Sex Female
    Height (inches) 61.0 to 63.0
    Weight (pounds) 120.0 to 145.0
    Circumstances
    City Rochester
    State New York
    Circumstances
    Barbara was last seen in 1980 by her family in Rochester. Rumors had her moving to New York City and also California and has not been heard from since.
    DNA
    Status: Samples submitted - Tests not complete

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