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  1. #1
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    If Terri is indicted for murder...

    and Kyron is alive someplace...would the fear of facing a murder trial and possible prison sentence or worse cause her to finally produce Kyron and confess as to what happened? Or would she continue to bluff it out and take her chances for an acquittal?

    This is what I fell alseep thinking about last night. Wondering if the only way she might tell where he might be is if she were to be facing a first-degree murder (wihtout a body) trial. This case is bizarre enough that it might be even be a first, for a defendant to produce the so-called murder victim once charged. And then try for lesser charges by making up some reason/excuse as to why she felt she had to "hide" Kyron, or plead insanity, for example.

    I was also awake trying to think of another case of a no-body/murder trial, with a conviction, of a missing child. There probably has been, but could not come up with one. Still waiting for that to happen down in Florida for Haleigh. In the cases I've seen where murder without a body has been charged, almost everyone referred to the missing person as dead from the start. Yet in this case, LE seems to be trying to nail down as many details about Terri and accomplices, if any, as if they intend to proceed with a case, while never saying Kyron is presumed dead.

    So will she crack if charged with murder, if Kyron isn't dead? And if she is charged and doesn't crack, does that mean he is?
    Last edited by cluciano63; 08-13-2010 at 10:32 AM. Reason: sp
    Just my opinion, of course.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    and Kyron is alive someplace...would the fear of facing a murder trial and possible prison sentence or worse cause her to finally produce Kyron and confess as to what happened? Or would she continue to bluff it out and take her chances for an acquittal?

    This is what I fell alseep thinking about last night. Wondering if the only way she might tell where he might be is if she were to be facing a first-degree murder (wihtout a body) trial. This case is bizarre enough that it might be even be a first, for a defendant to produce the so-called murder victim once charged. And then try for lesser charges by making up some reason/excuse as to why she felt she had to "hide" Kyron, or plead insanity, for example.

    I was also awake trying to think of another case of a no-body/murder trial, with a conviction, of a missing child. There probably has been, but could not come up with one. Still waiting for that to happen down in Florida for Haleigh. In the cases I've seen where murder without a body has been charged, almost everyone referred to the missing person as dead from the start. Yet in this case, LE seems to be trying to nail down as many details about Terri and accomplices, if any, as if they intend to proceed with a case, while never saying Kyron is presumed dead.

    So will she crack if charged with murder, if Kyron isn't dead? And if she is charged and doesn't crack, does that mean he is?
    I've been thinking the same things, Clu. I don't see how they can indict someone for murder without any evidence of it, and I don't think they would do that as a ploy to get her to confess to where he is.
    Unless they do have more than we have heard about, which doesn't make sense because they said Weds. that they do not have anything to suggest that Kyron is not still alive.
    I remember the statements by a defense attorney in past years... was it the Duke Lacrosse case?... that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich... but I don't think that is entirely true. They have to follow the law, and if the evidence is not there, they can't indict without it.
    As I and others have stated many times, YES... they do try cases without a body, but there is always evidence that someone was murdered AND the evidence has to point to the person charged with that murder. They can't just assume that because someone is missing, they are dead.
    I know that the circumstantial evidence is stacking up and it makes Terri look very suspicious, along with DeDe... but I don't believe it's enough to point to murder. Kidnapping, possibly other crimes. But not murder.

  3. #3
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    I didn't mean they would indict her in order to force her hand...just wondering what her response would be if she was charged with murder and knew he was alive; seems she would be indignant, as in "he isn't dead, you fools" kind of thing.

    But I don't see how they can charge her with kidnapping either if they cannot prove he left with her. He was in the school, apparently, and never seen leaving.
    Just my opinion, of course.

  4. #4
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    I found the reference to the Duke/LaCrosse case, above, very sobering. And a good reminder that unethical or inept LE/DA *and* public witch hunts can wreak havoc in innocent lives.

    If the GJ, which IMHO, often will indict "a ham sandwich" does indict TH, she'll stay quiet. Houze already has his strategy ready, I'm convinced.

    Unless there's a lot more solid evidence out there that we don't know about, there isn't enough to eliminate "reasonable doubt." Not only for the evidence, but dang, LE itself keeps saying that they have no reason to believe Kyron is dead.

    So if LE says there's no reason to believe he's dead, how can a prosecutor get a GJ to indict? LE has basically torpedoed any "murder without a body case."

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat010 View Post
    So if LE says there's no reason to believe he's dead, how can a prosecutor get a GJ to indict? LE has basically torpedoed any "murder without a body case."
    Exactly.
    "Minds are like parachutes. They only function when they are open." - James Dewar

  6. #6
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    I think it depends on a number of things. If she hid him, why did she hide him? Let's operate off the assumption he's hidden for safekeeping. Terri has balls of steel to continue hiding him after all this time. She must continue to believe his safety is paramount, even above her well-being, her seeing her daughter, and the current media and legal scrutiny. If she didn't hide him for safekeeping, but hid him as revenge against Kaine for whatever reason, then she might be unsure if he's still alive, and so I don't think she'd ever crack about his whereabouts and risk implicating herself only for LE to discover that whoever is holding Kyron killed him in a panic.

    At this point, if someone has him, I think that person will have to give him up.

    Also, I think it's important to remember that this isn't simply a case of prosecuting a murder without a body, but there's no evidence a murder even occurred. None. Not even circumstantial evidence like e-mails, phone calls, and not inadmissible evidence either, IMHO, like failed polygraphs about those particular questions. LE has made it clear that there is NOTHING that leads them to believe Kyron is not alive. They may believe he's dead, but IMHO, nothing Terri has said or done, no evidence circumstantial, inadmissable or otherwise, points to her involvement in his death. That is very telling, IMHO.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat010 View Post
    I found the reference to the Duke/LaCrosse case, above, very sobering. And a good reminder that unethical or inept LE/DA *and* public witch hunts can wreak havoc in innocent lives.

    If the GJ, which IMHO, often will indict "a ham sandwich" does indict TH, she'll stay quiet. Houze already has his strategy ready, I'm convinced.

    Unless there's a lot more solid evidence out there that we don't know about, there isn't enough to eliminate "reasonable doubt." Not only for the evidence, but dang, LE itself keeps saying that they have no reason to believe Kyron is dead.

    So if LE says there's no reason to believe he's dead, how can a prosecutor get a GJ to indict? LE has basically torpedoed any "murder without a body case."
    I personally at this time don't have any reason to believe that the DA or LE in this case are inept or unethical. If anything they are doing things by the book and the letter of the law.

    I am not sure that I agree either that the GJ will indict a ham sandwich. I am sure anyone who is seated currently on this GJ or anyone who is in the past served on one would necessarily agree either.

    We also do not know what possible charges, if any, the DA is considering in this grand jury. As stated before in the GJ thread it could be just investigative in nature.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nursebeeme View Post
    I personally at this time don't have any reason to believe that the DA or LE in this case are inept or unethical. If anything they are doing things by the book and the letter of the law.

    I am not sure that I agree either that the GJ will indict a ham sandwich. I am sure anyone who is seated currently on this GJ or anyone who is in the past served on one would necessarily agree either.

    We also do not know what possible charges, if any, the DA is considering in this grand jury. As stated before in the GJ thread it could be just investigative in nature.
    Note: I did not say nor infer that DA/LE in this case or inept or unethical. I merely replied to another post and said that the Duke case is a good reminder. And it is. Given that TH's attorney has already talked about a "witch hunt"--and so have others here--the Duke case is a good example of why due process is important, as is avoiding public outcry based on unproven allegations.

    I agree that not everyone would agree with the "ham sandwich" viewpoint. However, in a GJ, there is no room for the defense or rebuttal. It simply is the prosecution bring on what they have and trying to convince a GJ to issue an indictment. That's often the route chosen when the DA/LE believe they don't have enough direct evidence to simply go ahead and arrest someone and charge them.

    So the GJ only hears what one side wants it to hear, basically. It's not at all like a trial. And in an emotional case, it's not unlikely that they will heed the "authority" figures and indict someone.

    JMO, of course.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cypress View Post
    Also, I think it's important to remember that this isn't simply a case of prosecuting a murder without a body, but there's no evidence a murder even occurred. None. ~snipped~ They may believe he's dead, but IMHO, nothing Terri has said or done, no evidence circumstantial, inadmissable or otherwise, points to her involvement in his death. That is very telling, IMHO.


    Exactly. she wont be charged with murder at this point because there is no evidence that showes Kyron is deceased. If they had a large amount of blood, like enough to show a person bled out, or tissue that wouldn't normally be found outside a live body they might be able to charge her and succesfully prosecute her for murder. A friend of mine was murdered and her body has never been found. The guy who murdered her was convicted based upon two things. His car was caught in the background on a camera recording her withdrawing money at a walk up ATM late at night when no-one else was at the bank, and in that car they found tissue from a bodily organ that unless she were undergoing some major surgery would NEVER be outside the body. Her body, as well as the body of her room mate, is believed to be in a landfill in Kansas but LE was never able to find them.

    If they find that sort of evidence against TH, then I'll stand in line for the chance to flip the switch on her last day., even if they never find poor little Kyron.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat010 View Post
    I found the reference to the Duke/LaCrosse case, above, very sobering. And a good reminder that unethical or inept LE/DA *and* public witch hunts can wreak havoc in innocent lives.

    If the GJ, which IMHO, often will indict "a ham sandwich" does indict TH, she'll stay quiet. Houze already has his strategy ready, I'm convinced.

    Unless there's a lot more solid evidence out there that we don't know about, there isn't enough to eliminate "reasonable doubt." Not only for the evidence, but dang, LE itself keeps saying that they have no reason to believe Kyron is dead.

    So if LE says there's no reason to believe he's dead, how can a prosecutor get a GJ to indict? LE has basically torpedoed any "murder without a body case."
    BBM

    Why would Criminal Defense Attorney Houze need to have any strategy? If his client, Terri, were innocent, there would be no need of a strategy.

    Also, I don't believe that LE worded it the way you have stated, in regards to whether or not LE believes that Kyron is alive. I also am of the strong belief that thinking, feeling, reasoning human beings, serving on the Grand Jury in this case, are able to work with the notion that, even though Kyron has not been found, there is the strong possibility that he is no longer alive. As others have stated, we don't know what type of charges they are initially bringing against Terri.

    My opinions.

    "Truth is not only violated by falsehood; it may be equally outraged by silence." ~ Henri-Frederic Amiel ~


  11. #11
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    Child-murder convictions with no body:

    George Leniart convicted of murdering missing April Pennington.
    But the circumstances — and Leniart’s history of sex crimes, including a rape that was very similar to how he supposedly killed April — were damning. He will serve life in prison without parole.
    http://www.theday.com/article/201003...303039930/1017

    Stuart Campbell convicted of murdering missing Danielle Jones (England.)
    The use of text messaging evidence in the trial inspired a group of researchers at the University of Leicester to begin studying text messaging styles, in the belief research into the forensic authorship analysis of such things would help with further criminal cases.[10][11][12]
    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Danielle_Jones[/ame]

    Well, I don't have time to chase more down, but here are some resources:
    Attorney Tad DiBiase, who runs the nobodymurdercases.com Web site, has collected nearly 300 examples of U.S. prosecutors who didn't let the fact that there was no body get in the way of filing murder charges. Debaise says he's discovered only one case in which the missing "victim" was later found alive.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-..._b_137791.html

    eta A few examples from the Pacific Northwest
    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/179898_navyside29x.html
    Last edited by STEADFAST; 08-13-2010 at 02:45 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat010 View Post
    I found the reference to the Duke/LaCrosse case, above, very sobering. And a good reminder that unethical or inept LE/DA *and* public witch hunts can wreak havoc in innocent lives.

    If the GJ, which IMHO, often will indict "a ham sandwich" does indict TH, she'll stay quiet. Houze already has his strategy ready, I'm convinced.

    Unless there's a lot more solid evidence out there that we don't know about, there isn't enough to eliminate "reasonable doubt." Not only for the evidence, but dang, LE itself keeps saying that they have no reason to believe Kyron is dead.

    So if LE says there's no reason to believe he's dead, how can a prosecutor get a GJ to indict? LE has basically torpedoed any "murder without a body case."
    Excuse me, but I don't recall LE ever stating they have no reason to believe Kyron is dead...
    At this time they just don't have any physical evidence that proves he is dead..

    BIG DIFFERENCE..JMHOOTS

  13. #13
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    I guess my main curiousity was whether or not Terri would "crack" with a murder charge hanging over her head, if in fact Kyron was alive. Rather foolish and expensive to go through a murder trial with uncertain outcome if she could end it all by producing Kyron and taking a plea for something lesser (while trying to throw the blame.) But I really think she would have had him "produced" by now, if she could. Even she couldn't be enjoying her life the way it is now.
    Just my opinion, of course.

  14. #14
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    I don't think a murder charge is coming anytime soon. Perhaps some smaller charge, but not murder and not to make a person talk. Murder is one of the highest charges. Once a person is charged there must be a trial, if the person is acquitted they cannot be charged for that murder again. LE nor the DA can just randomly charge someone with a murder they do not have a shot at proving. It will not make them talk, it is illegal to bring that charge with that intent. So, until Kyron is found there will be no murder charges, as far as we know there is no evidence of Kyron being murdered. Not a wise move legally.

    They can charge for lesser things, which looks like that is what the Grand Jury is about. If those charges go through and jail time, some will talk, some will not.

    Murder charges never indicted can lay on the table forever as long as no one has been charged and acquitted. In other words, you can remain a suspect the rest of your life, if a body if found fifty years from now and evidence, you the suspect are still alive, you will get charged then and go to trial.

    Unless I have included a link, it is my opinion and only my opinion that I am expressing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emeralgem View Post
    Excuse me, but I don't recall LE ever stating they have no reason to believe Kyron is dead...At this time they just don't have any physical evidence that proves he is dead..
    Respectfully edited. LE has fashioned very carefully scripted and somewhat cryptic statements about whether they believe that Kyron is alive or not. For the sake of Kyron's parents, they probably feel obligated to hope for the best, but statistics in such cases generally suggest otherwise. jmo

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