Hague cases - international parental abduction...

I'm not sure if this belongs here as it is a general discussion thread with regards to International parental abduction and those children being listed with NCMEC.

I ran across this recent local article about a father whose son was taken to Poland 10 years ago when his son was 4.

http://www.southtownstar.com/news/2638818,082610gerardo.article

He never waived his parental rights and Cook Cty granted him custody. Cook Cty, IL would be the home state which had custodial jurisdiction.

Poland apparently granted the mother custody, ignored the home state and hague agreement and further ordered this father to pay child support.

Despite Cook Cty granting this father custody the IL department of Child support honored Polands child support order.

With the little media I was able to find, this is clearly a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. There is almost NO main stream media about this case.

I then wondered if this child was listed with NCMEC. I did not find his name so I chose the advanced search option at NCMEC for Hague Cases. Much to my suprise only 8 children were listed under the Hague category. An individual search at NCMEC for only parental abduction cases lists several hundred cases.

Clearly there are far more than 300 or so internationally parentally abducted children from the United States.

Some of you have followed Hague cases much more so than I.

I'm curious on your feedback, input on why cases such as the one this father is facing doesn't at least have his child listed at NCMEC?

Or better said, the left behind parent doesn't at least have the child listed at NCMEC. Most left behind parents are fathers, but I don't want to be exclusive of fathers who have abducted their children.

ETA: I should probably rephrase the above. Why are these childen not listed in NCMEC? I'm wondering if they are facing a wall of somekind? I don't believe they would choose not to have the child listed if possible.

Thoughts?

I really don't have any answers Cubby. I did note that the children that are listed in the Doe Network are listed (from what I can remember) when the abducting parent has an international warrant issued.

Could it be the missing persons websites have certain criteria they go by when listing children of familial abductions?

This is a very good question.

I see children elsewhere on the internet that aren't listed in the NCMEC or the Doe Network or Charley Project that are victims of parental abduction.

I'm interested to see what other's have to say on this topic.

I remember when Emily Machado's dad fought so hard to have her listed with NCMEC.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...seNum=1092337&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

It took him a long long time, especially as a never married father. And this case was incredibly difficult for him in recent years as opposed to older cases such as the one in my initial post.

I don't know if a federal warrant has been issued in Emily's case.

I too am hoping someone can clarify why some are listed at NCMEC and others are not.

tia

Maybe WS needs a forum for Hague cases?

Cubby said:

I remember when Emily Machado's dad fought so hard to have her listed with NCMEC.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...seNum=1092337&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

It took him a long long time, especially as a never married father. And this case was incredibly difficult for him in recent years as opposed to older cases such as the one in my initial post.

I don't know if a federal warrant has been issued in Emily's case.

I too am hoping someone can clarify why some are listed at NCMEC and others are not.

tia

Click to expand...

That is sad Cubby.

I noticed when I clicked on her page it said "do not pick up on this information"

I see that notated a lot as well on other missing children. Frustrating. JMHO.

Thanks Hoppy that's a great idea. I do know there are other posters here that have interest specifically in the Hauge cases. Hopefully, they will stop by soon and comment.

ETA: From time to time I get an email from a Grandmother who's granddaughter was taken to Asia (Japan IIRC). It's devastating to these families left behind.

It's very odd, Cubby. There are a few cases that I have seen be changed in their classification several times. Being listed as "Family Abduction" for a few months, then a "Hague Cause" for a few months, then back to a "Family Abduction", and so on. And others I've seen listed as "Family Abduction" and NOT Hague Case, even though in the Circumstances section, it talks about it being a Hague Case.

I know with many Hague Cases, they KNOW where the child is. To become a Hague Case, I believe they have to "apply" for the child to be returned to the custodial parent in the United States through the Hague Treaty. I think this leads a lot of people (and likely even LE) to no longer consider the child "missing". I have a suspicion that they may sometimes even drop the missing child report, making it impossible to get the child on NCMEC.

Not sure how accurate that is, but that's my interpretation and/or suspicion of how that works.

Most children that are internationally abducted are classified as "Endangered Missing" or "Family Abduction" rather than Hague case even if there is ongoing Convention litigation and the whereabouts of the child are generally known. I'm not sure why this is the case but I've seen them do it many times. MissingChild blog wrote about it last year as well:

http://missingchild.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/case-type-hague-case/

hoppyfrog said:

Maybe WS needs a forum for Hague cases?

Click to expand...

I'm thinking about that which was my reasoning to start this thread. Like any 'case' we will have to explore this area and see where it leads.

I do have a soft spot in my heart and passion for those left behind parents who the courts *might* view as their child is not in danger because they are with the other parent.

I am very well aware of the highly debated and controversial SP topics out there and I am proceeding very cautiously with exploring how Websleuths and the advocates for the missing might find a niche here within TOS.

the niche would be solely on missing children where one parent has been legally awarded sole or primary physical custody AND WS 'verification' process would be in tact, similiarly to our verification for anyone who would like to post as a lawyer or SAR or an insider on a case.

We would have to require a copy of a court order awarding custody. There would be no rumor..... and then we can start from there once facts are verified. As usual any docs sent for verification would remain confidential... We need to know once legal custody has been awarded and we would NOT in any way get into any custodial argument prior to the award of court ordered custody.

My immediate and initial thoughts and concerns are allowing a verifiable semi main stream media not associated with any activists groups verification of legitimate missing children who have been parentally kidnapped. It is HARD to sort through either side with a political agenda...

Simply put, can Websleuths help assist left behind parents find a reputable MSM avenue to list their missing child?


My thoughts are small on this. I would really like to see if we can start non discussion missing subforum kind of thing for at least verification of..... and work from there.

thanks

DeadbeatDad said:

Most children that are internationally abducted are classified as "Endangered Missing" or "Family Abduction" rather than Hague case even if there is ongoing Convention litigation and the whereabouts of the child are generally known. I'm not sure why this is the case but I've seen them do it many times. MissingChild blog wrote about it last year as well:

http://missingchild.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/case-type-hague-case/

Click to expand...

Thank you and Welcome to WS Deadbeatdad. That was hard to use your user name... but I will respect your choice of that name.

May I respectfully abbreviate it DBD?

I would like to ask, simply, Do you think left behind parents have access to list their child as missing on NCMEC or local LE missing persons websites?

What obstacles have you faced if you were awarded sole physical and legal custody, even if by default because the 'kidnapping' parent failed to show for court having your child listed as missing?

If your court order states neither parent is to 'bad mouth' the other parent, would you feel comfortable sharing a copy of a court order verifying having sole legal physical custody-confidentially to allow WS assistance to have your child listed as missing? And if you were not court ordered, in the best interest of the child - we would not permit you to 'bash' the other parent.

Do you think it would help cases, as futile as it may be to recover your internationally abducted child, if they were listed at NCMEC-which is considered a legit main stream media source outside of the various fathers rights groups or child support enforcement groups?

Do you think parents wishing to utilize a site like WS would be interested in doing so if this was not a site to bash the system or other parent? There are numerous sites out there to debate parental rights. WS is not one of them. WS is about getting to the facts and truth.... and our goal would be to make the public aware of and to assist in the recovery of a missing person.

Your feedback is welcome.

As a side note, I am a never married single parent. My hopes would be a non discussion information and support forum. WS is not equiped to be a family court or child support discussion or debate forum.

tia.

Cubby

DBD is fine.

As an aside as to why I've chosen the name, I am doing my small part to take the phrase back from it's modern pejorative usage. Not advocating fathers abandon their children (I actually had a real deadbeat dad myself) but, with the advent of no-fault divorces, absurdly high child-support awards, draconian child support enforcement, lack of accountability in family court and a cottage industry of child welfare "professionals" (guardian ad litems, social workers, cliinical psychologists, etc) who profit from divorce and create perverse incentives for parents, typically mothers, to file for it (in addition to federal matching incentives), many deadbeat dads have been, literally, thrown out of their homes, lost their children, and treated like criminals through "no fault" of their own. Before I digress any further, I'll plug the book "Taken into Custody" by Stephen Baskerville who describes the current state of affairs much better than I do.

I have never actually not paid child support. I am a LBP with a child in a foreign country and have spent a fortune on my own "Hague case" (my son is considered "endangered missing" with the NCMEC fwiw.) But I sympathize with what is happening to many fathers whose children are not in a foreign country and still can't see them. While not illegally abducted by their spouse their children have been abducted by the courts just the same. My son's abduction has opened my eyes to the suffering that surrounds me. Would that I could have learned that lesson some other way.

In spite of the above, in reference to my name, I don't think there is a need for yet another forum to discuss domestic child custody, parental rights or child support issues (though I consider them to be very important nonetheless.)

Going back to your questions, LBP's are generally allowed to advertise their child's dissapearance and abduction. The only thing that would prevent them from doing so would be a domestic family court judge issuing an injunction to the contrary. Family courts are given almost unlimited lattitude to order non-custodial parents to do almost anything in the "best interests of the child" (they can do the same to custodial parents as well but generally do not since they can't marginalize them as deadbeats or evil abusive fathers.) Foreign courts also occasionally forbid discussing Hague cases publicly (this, notably was the case for much of David Goldman's ordeal.) I would think such a situation would be rare in an international abduction case though.

The NCMEC flat out will not list a child as missing in any way without the person requesting it having a court order to that effect.

Offhand I can't think of a good reason for a parent not wanting to confidentially share a custody order with an organization that was trying to help them. I would view such an unwillingness as suspect, but there may be a good reason I'm missing. In any case though, a listing by the NCMEC can be considered proof that such an order exists since they require a copy of such an order, and, if that order is temporary, will require a new order when it expires to keep the picture and information up.

To clarify though, even if they are not listed as "Hague cases" almost all parents with internationally abducted children are in fact listed by the NCMEC. Add yes, even where children are not being actively searched for by the public, I think the NCMEC's publishing of case files serves several important purposes. First, as stated above, it demonstrates they've validated that the child is truly "missing" from their home (typically due to a family abduction.. international or domestic.) This is critical as it should avoid the "he said, she said" characterizations that many like to make of so-called "private domestic issues." It also helps raise awareness of the LBP's and child's plight and, hopefully, leads to someone reaching out to help them. Oftentimes it also helps put pressure on the abductor to return the child since their pictures are also frequently published (actually only when criminal warrants for them exist) as child abductors..and rightly so! Something that drives some of them absolutely batty while they hop up and down claiming that the country they abducted the child to gave them custody (even if it was in contravention of international family law norms, morality or common human decency.)

I think there are so very few forums and groups offering meaninful assistance to LBP's of internationally abducted children that they will take anything they can get and be grateful for it. Although, as far as not bashing the system, that's, to some degree, par for the course. The US State Department has a long and sordid history of treating international child abductions as "mini diplomatic incidents" rather than as human or childrens rights issues and their overwhelming directive is to maintain good diplomatic relations and not create waves. Fathers in particular will bash the system because it really is biased against them at every level and many of them are only just finding that out in the context of also having their child abducted. This blogs description of one parents initial experience is pretty typical of what most fathers, and some mothers (especially non-white ones), find when dealing with all authorities (State, Federal, Law Enforcement, Courts and elected officials.)

http://hagueabductions.com/index.php?option=com_wordpress&p=10&Itemid=58

What parents need really depends on where they are in their efforts to find their children and bring them home. Some times just having a place to vent provides some relief (and they're so screwed that there isn't much else anyone can do for them.)

In closing, I'd like to plug a case that I have taken a special interest in:

Tammy and Diego Flores
http://cybertipline.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=4296

Two more children abducted and taken out of country who fall under the Hague Convention:

Mariella Carbajal (4) & Vincent Carbajal (6) - Anaheim CA, 1998 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Next month will mark 12 years that Mariella and Vincent have been missing. Come home soon.