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Thread: TX - Missing Fort Worth Three, 1974 - #1

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Sousa View Post
    Daisy , Diege says the only present found wrapped in the car was a gift Renee brought from home for Rachel's stepson.
    Thanks! I read everything last night and have just gotten time to write... Do we have confirmation that the jeans that were not purchased at the mall were not in the car?

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  3. #352
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    Is it possible that the police were protecting one of their own that was moonlighting as a security guard?

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  5. #353
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    It seems as though there are conflicting reports on all the facts that I knew from reading the news articles I've read thru the years and on the Trio sight. Daisy at this point I have no idea what was really in the car.

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  7. #354
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    So far from what Deige has told us , Rachel was after a top to match the jeans she go out of layaway from the Army-Navy store, Renee was there because Rachel waned her company and Julie wanted to buy a present for her Grandpa. That doesnt sound like a whole lot of xmas presents. I always thought maybe they bought so much that they needed to store some in the car so they wouldnt have carry them while they finished shopping

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  9. #355
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    Sorry my "t" isnt typing , I'm really not that illiterate.

  10. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by daisy.faithfull View Post
    Is it possible that the police were protecting one of their own that was moonlighting as a security guard?
    That's a good question with very disturbing implications.

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  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Sousa View Post
    If I had more information or all the facts, I might have a different view, but I think the security guard scenario makes more sense than someone taking them against their will. If someone forced them to come with them I dont think the guy would have tried to do it in the mall and even the walk from the mall to the car in broad daylight doesnt seem like it would appeal to an abductor. Too much traffic during Xmas , that is if the parking lot was the one on the Seminary drive side.

    If they were kept in the basement till late in the evening they might have left a clue in what ever room they were in.
    I am wondering the exact same thing - and also wondering if perhaps they are still somewhere in that mall. Maybe the point of the letter was to send police looking everywhere but the mall. The thing is their bodies have never been found, but if there were abandoned or little used areas in the basement - could they have been concealed in some way - perhaps under a new cement floor or by construction going on down there? I remember the massive storage area at my high school had a dirt floor - could there have been an area like that at Seminary South? The thought is really very frightening. During Christmas an unsub could keep the girls in a secluded area and no one would hear anything when the mall was empty overnight and on Christmas day. I do wonder if 3 girls taken with 2 nights leading up to Christmas plus Christmas night was likely more than a coincidence in the mind of the unsub. Yet the buildings have been rennovated twice since 1974 - once to turn it into an enclosed mall and a second time to turn it into a lifestyle center and nothing was found. Just the same, I'm wondering if it would make sense for investigators to use ground penetrating radar on the basement floor of the mall.

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  14. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Sousa View Post
    If I had more information or all the facts, I might have a different view, but I think the security guard scenario makes more sense than someone taking them against their will. If someone forced them to come with them I dont think the guy would have tried to do it in the mall and even the walk from the mall to the car in broad daylight doesnt seem like it would appeal to an abductor. Too much traffic during Xmas , that is if the parking lot was the one on the Seminary drive side.

    If they were kept in the basement till late in the evening they might have left a clue in what ever room they were in.
    Of course, we don't know if the girls made it back to the car. It might have been that the unsub was waiting for the girls at the car and when they got in, he jumped in and carjacked them and later returned the car to the parking lot - which is why he knew where the car was parked for the letter. In other words, he may have seen the girls go into the store, parked nearby and waited, then started walking past their car as they got in and suddenly jumped in and carjacked them - passerby's might not notice that type of thing. If he had a gun, it would be easy to control the three girls.

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    Mia

  16. #359
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    I'll take a trip out there to see what access to the bowling area and also the other area where the radio station was, I 'm pretty sure that part of the mall is not enclosed , the only part that really looks different to me is the northeast corner

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  18. #360
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    I'm not going at night though

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  20. #361
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    I also remember that the railroad tracks that ran along the west side of the Mall had a rather large system of drainage tunnels that ran for miles in several directions. I'm not sure how close they ran to the underground structures of the Mall but it would be interesting to know if they connected anywhere.

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  22. #362
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    Let me restate that...the railroad tracks didnt have the drainage tunnels, but there WAS an entrance to the system right at the tracks by the Mall (very close to the outward building that later became the movie theater). I know the tunnels ran all along Seminary and Hemphill though because my cousins and I used to play in them. I just cant recall if they went closer to the Mall than at the tracks. It sure seems like they did but I can't say for sure.

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  24. #363
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    I'm not going at night though

  25. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    Of course, we don't know if the girls made it back to the car. It might have been that the unsub was waiting for the girls at the car and when they got in, he jumped in and carjacked them and later returned the car to the parking lot - which is why he knew where the car was parked for the letter. In other words, he may have seen the girls go into the store, parked nearby and waited, then started walking past their car as they got in and suddenly jumped in and carjacked them - passerby's might not notice that type of thing. If he had a gun, it would be easy to control the three girls.

    Thats possible , but if there in the parking lot by Sears in the south lot Seminary Drive is right there with very heavy traffic, and it has to be between 12 and 4 in broad daylight. Not saying it couldnt have happened that way though.

  26. #365
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    Diege, tonight I was watching a documentary about sexual slavery in America. Marc Klaass knows a lot about this. I am convinced that you need to get in contact with him, if you haven't been already. Houston is one of the major points of human trafficking, which I'm sure you already know. If you don't know how to reach Marc Klaass, I will help you arrange it and help you get his attention.

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  28. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    I am wondering the exact same thing - and also wondering if perhaps they are still somewhere in that mall. Maybe the point of the letter was to send police looking everywhere but the mall. The thing is their bodies have never been found, but if there were abandoned or little used areas in the basement - could they have been concealed in some way - perhaps under a new cement floor or by construction going on down there? I remember the massive storage area at my high school had a dirt floor - could there have been an area like that at Seminary South? The thought is really very frightening. During Christmas an unsub could keep the girls in a secluded area and no one would hear anything when the mall was empty overnight and on Christmas day. I do wonder if 3 girls taken with 2 nights leading up to Christmas plus Christmas night was likely more than a coincidence in the mind of the unsub. Yet the buildings have been rennovated twice since 1974 - once to turn it into an enclosed mall and a second time to turn it into a lifestyle center and nothing was found. Just the same, I'm wondering if it would make sense for investigators to use ground penetrating radar on the basement floor of the mall.
    Makes sense to me!

    I was also wonder it could have been another employee of the mall. In one of the articles I remember that one of the employees reported to the police that a shopper told them that they saw the girls "hustled" into a truck. LE never got to talk to this shopper because they left before LE could speak to them. Seems weird that a witness would do that in a case like this.

    Maybe there was no shopper. Maybe the employee was trying to throw police in the wrong direction... An employee would have access to the basement floor of the mall. I know... this scenario is far-fetched, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

    And I don't mean to implicate LE in this, it just seems to strange to me that they considered it a runaway when there was so much evidence that said otherwise. The car was left behind for goodness sake!

    I also think that it is an excellent idea to contact Mark Klaas about the slavery angle. I can't imagine that LE even thought to examine that angle back then. Even now there is so little awareness of that issue.

  29. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Sousa View Post
    I'll take a trip out there to see what access to the bowling area and also the other area where the radio station was, I 'm pretty sure that part of the mall is not enclosed , the only part that really looks different to me is the northeast corner
    Just be super careful at that mall!

  30. #368
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    Diege, you told us that Renee's mom started calling to find her around 2pm. What time did the parents call the police regarding the girls?

  31. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    So for the above reasons, I feel certain that these girls were abducted by a stranger or someone they knew but should not have trusted.
    I enjoyed your post, particularly the above portion. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Because of the letter, I've always thought it was someone they knew that wasn't trustworthy...a gut feeling if you will...but of course it could a stranger as well.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.---Patrick Moynihan
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  32. #370
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    Did we ever find out if Tommy was at work the day the girl's disappeared?

  33. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Rose View Post
    I was thinking about the Security Guards' story of seeing the girls in another Security Guards' truck at 11:30pm. He said they were happy and laughing, but I wonder if they might have been drugged. What if he had held the girls all day in a room in the basement of the mall and somehow drugged them - maybe put something in drinks he gave them, all the while saying he was waiting until the police or their parents came and he was getting ready to take them away from the Mall when the other security guard saw him with the girls in the truck? The girls might have shown him their car at that time.
    I was thinking more along the lines that A) they knew him (of course if this sighting is true) or B) he was a genial type, good at getting people to feel at ease, and since he's a security guard, there would be no reason to fear in their minds. He could have driven near their car, they could have pointed it out, then he could have made up an excuse to go back to the basement and they could have willingly followed for whatever reason. LIke maybe: "Here's the car." "Ok. Oh wait I forgot about XYZ, would you guys mind coming back with me while I do (or get) XYZ?" I dunno, it's just a thought.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.---Patrick Moynihan
    Living in the

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  35. #372
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    the letter

    Someone mentioned this before I think it was Princess, but the term "catch it" doesnt sound right did Deige ever answer that it was a term Rachel or their family used? Everyone I know would have said "get it" like "we are going to get it when Mom see's this mess". Also "Sears upper lot" doesnt sound like a term that a shopper would use. It sounds like a title given to the lot to distinguish between Sears other lots to be clear so the person they were talking to knew exactly where they meant, LIKE A SECURITY GUARD WHO IN THE NORMAL ROUTINE OF HIS JOB WOULD REFER TO THE DIFFERENT LOTS ALL DAY LONG. I still dont know what they meant by "Sears upper lot" it could mean one of three different lots.

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  37. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Sousa View Post
    Someone mentioned this before I think it was Princess, but the term "catch it" doesnt sound right did Deige ever answer that it was a term Rachel or their family used? Everyone I know would have said "get it" like "we are going to get it when Mom see's this mess". Also "Sears upper lot" doesnt sound like a term that a shopper would use. It sounds like a title given to the lot to distinguish between Sears other lots to be clear so the person they were talking to knew exactly where they meant, LIKE A SECURITY GUARD WHO IN THE NORMAL ROUTINE OF HIS JOB WOULD REFER TO THE DIFFERENT LOTS ALL DAY LONG. I still dont know what they meant by "Sears upper lot" it could mean one of three different lots.
    I totally agree with you! I can't imagine using a term like that, and I can't imagine a teenager using it either.

  38. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Sousa View Post
    Someone mentioned this before I think it was Princess, but the term "catch it" doesnt sound right did Deige ever answer that it was a term Rachel or their family used? Everyone I know would have said "get it" like "we are going to get it when Mom see's this mess". Also "Sears upper lot" doesnt sound like a term that a shopper would use. It sounds like a title given to the lot to distinguish between Sears other lots to be clear so the person they were talking to knew exactly where they meant, LIKE A SECURITY GUARD WHO IN THE NORMAL ROUTINE OF HIS JOB WOULD REFER TO THE DIFFERENT LOTS ALL DAY LONG. I still dont know what they meant by "Sears upper lot" it could mean one of three different lots.
    I am so glad you mentioned this. I thought the exact same thing last night about the term "Sears upper lot" and forgot all about it by this morning. It sounds exactly like someone, such as a security guard who is trained on the layout of the mall would talk because he would have to be able to communicate by radio to another security guard where he was if there was a problem and he needed police or help.

    When I park at the mall I would describe it as : Outside Neiman Marcus, downstairs where the doors go into the men's department or Upstairs at Neiman Marcus where the lingerie and shoe department is. I would NEVER use a term like "upper lot" to describe where I parked at a mall.

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  40. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefragile7393 View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines that A) they knew him (of course if this sighting is true) or B) he was a genial type, good at getting people to feel at ease, and since he's a security guard, there would be no reason to fear in their minds. He could have driven near their car, they could have pointed it out, then he could have made up an excuse to go back to the basement and they could have willingly followed for whatever reason. LIke maybe: "Here's the car." "Ok. Oh wait I forgot about XYZ, would you guys mind coming back with me while I do (or get) XYZ?" I dunno, it's just a thought.
    I believe the sighting was around 11:30 pm - after the mall had closed. That's why I was thinking he might have been taking them away from the mall at that time. Of course, you are right, he could have been friendly and they might have liked him - in the documentary I watched last night, many of the girls taken into sexual slavery in America were befriended by someone who got them to go somewhere with them, at which point they were kidnapped. Still, it is odd that they would be happy to be there that late at night.

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