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  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    My Mother had an annoying habit whenever one of us criticized someone else. She'd ask us to imagine ourselves in exactly the same circumstances, exactly the same...and then try to understand how that feels...and then say how, under those circumstances...we'd have done things differently.

    Then approach Kaine's actions from THAT standpoint. I'm interested to hear what some of you think needed to change.
    My problem is, when I look at things like the innocence Project, or people accused in other high-profile cases who were ultimately innocent, I get very uncomfortable. The statistics are appalling.

    It's why I think innocent until proven guilty is such an important concept, not just because of the cost to the wrongly accused, but the cost to society, and the victim. If we were omniscient, that would be one thing, but we are mere mortals, and whether by logic or by statistical evidence, it seems conclusion bias is a significant problem in our legal justice system.

    So through that lens, I'd ask what folks would have had TMH do.

    To take that a step further, if TMH isn't guilty, who is? If everything we think we know about this case is a house of cards, what DO we know?

    And how does that color the lens we view KH's actions through?


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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadejazzkayla View Post
    yeah. if le actually did tell him about a mfh plot i would think he would ask his wife about it.
    Can you imagine any circumstances where Kaine might feel there was nothing Terri could say that would change anything?

    The obligation to hear HER side of the story and give it equal weight to LE...once again...depends on what exactly LE had in evidence to show him.

    Maybe there are things only Terri would know in emails to the Landscaper...or texts of Terri "similar" to the sexting she did with his friend...combined with hopes he would die.

    At that point, whatever could the spouse say that you could stay in the house or keep you Baby in her care?

    And if he believed in Terri and supported her...as it appeared he did in those first days...WHAT A SHOCK to this grieving Father!


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  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadejazzkayla View Post
    yeah. if le actually did tell him about a mfh plot i would think he would ask his wife about it.
    Well IMO that would have gone over like a turd in a punch bowl. What in the heck could she of said? "Honey, I was only joking with this guy who was doing yard work for us and said I would give XXX amount of money to off you and give him a little nookie to go along with it." IMO LE had more info from the LS, even if nothing came about, than his just telling LE Terry wanted Kaine murdered, I doubt if it sounded like a joke to LE.



  6. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jadejazzkayla View Post
    yeah. if le actually did tell him about a mfh plot i would think he would ask his wife about it.
    Me too. I find this so hard to understand.

    It's not like they had only been together for a couple of years. How can you marry someone and know that little about them?

    I am confused when KH says that he didn't know, that he was shocked, that he thought everything was fine, and then he left what was apparently minutes after LE informed him?

    That kind of leap is hard for me to make heads or tails of. If I truly believed everything he seemed to believe about his marriage on June 3rd, then I would have to hear the interviews with the LS myself, and then I'd have to talk to my spouse about it. There's no way I would just assume that the person I loved and trusted had suddenly become a monster.

    Kaine is a bright guy. How did he miss the Leviathan in his living room?



  7. #20
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    stmarysmead, it's so interesting to read how you, as a grandmother, would react to this tragedy. I've often thought about Kaine's mother and what a terrible time she must be having. First Kristian is convicted of child molestation, then Kaine's son Kyron goes missing.

    I feel a great empathy for her and the pain she must be enduring.



  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnmif View Post
    My problem is, when I look at things like the innocence Project, or people accused in other high-profile cases who were ultimately innocent, I get very uncomfortable. The statistics are appalling.

    It's why I think innocent until proven guilty is such an important concept, not just because of the cost to the wrongly accused, but the cost to society, and the victim. If we were omniscient, that would be one thing, but we are mere mortals, and whether by logic or by statistical evidence, it seems conclusion bias is a significant problem in our legal justice system.

    So through that lens, I'd ask what folks would have had TMH do.

    To take that a step further, if TMH isn't guilty, who is? If everything we think we know about this case is a house of cards, what DO we know?

    And how does that color the lens we view KH's actions through?
    But do we need to despise Kaine in order to have an open mind about Terri's innocence?

    Perhaps she is not responsible for Kyron's disappearance. Yet, at the same time, whatever Kaine was shown by LE...made his actions responsible and understandable in regard to removing himself and Baby K from the situation.

    I just don't think the way to defend Terri is through demonizing Kaine or Desiree.



  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnmif View Post
    Me too. I find this so hard to understand.

    It's not like they had only been together for a couple of years. How can you marry someone and know that little about them?

    I am confused when KH says that he didn't know, that he was shocked, that he thought everything was fine, and then he left what was apparently minutes after LE informed him?

    That kind of leap is hard for me to make heads or tails of. If I truly believed everything he seemed to believe about his marriage on June 3rd, then I would have to hear the interviews with the LS myself, and then I'd have to talk to my spouse about it. There's no way I would just assume that the person I loved and trusted had suddenly become a monster.

    Kaine is a bright guy. How did he miss the Leviathan in his living room?
    I have a friend whose daughter (with 4 children no less) has just been told by her husband that he has been involved with someone else for 7 years and wants a divorce to marry this woman. The whole family is thunderstruck.

    Until he made his decision, had his financial "ducks in a row"...he played his part very well.

    Scott Peterson was defended by the Rochas, wasn't he? The perfect son-in-law.

    Jeffrey MacDonald's in-laws stood behind him as well, until presented with compelling evidence that he killed their daughter and grandchildren.

    There are many ways a trusting person can deceive himself or herself.

    And, for all we know...Kaine DID hear or read the conversations between Terri and the LS. That might be the very reason he felt no further conversation could change anything.



  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    I've often thought about Kaine and what he is going through. I have great sympathy for him and his suffering.

    I have a feeling that he wishes he was more aware and responsive to certain situations in his home, before June 4th; I know I would be thinking that way. I think the marriage and family life was extremely unstable. I'll bet he relives it all in his mind and wonders what he should have seen that he did not. I know I would be doing that.

    As far as Kaine's reaction to whatever LE told him about the murder plot, I have no idea how I would react, except I know I would speak with my husband before taking off. I would listen to what he had to say, before I would file for divorce based on what a landscaper had told the police he had done. His reaction seems extreme to me, only in that he never gave Terri a chance and up to that point, he had not indicated anything other than a contented marriage.
    bbm~

    Like SMM suggested, under normal circumstances it might depend on exactly what LE showed or told me. Under these circumstances, I imagine it would take somewhat less of a showing for LE to convince me. Maybe not much at all if I was well on my way already to believing my spouse had something to do with my child missing.

    Putting myself in KH's shoes, I think I would have believed LE on minimal proof and even if I wasn't certain, I would not have taken any chance about getting out of the house with baby. As far as filing for divorce immediately -- again, if I was in kH's shoes and inclined to believe LE, I would have done so, as well. The only thing I might have *wanted* to have done differently is to have LE and me confront my spouse with the proof, but that wouldn't be possible under the circumstances, especially since they were planning the sting. For that same reason, KH couldn't have spoken to TH ahead of time about the allegations w/o blowing LE's plan.

    I could speak to what I would have done in KH's shoes after the sting didn't work, but that would be based on my speculation about what I believe KH saw or heard from LE. As I've posted before, he was beyond done, and I think it's because what he saw or heard convinced him beyond any doubt whatsoever. jmoo


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  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    <snip>

    I just don't think the way to defend Terri is through demonizing Kaine or Desiree.
    And there's an awful lot of that going on. JMO.


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  14. #25
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    I don't get the feeling anyone here despises Kaine. Questioning some actions, well, it is really all we have on this case to do. But unlike other forums, I've not seen much in the way of "bashing" Kaine or Desiree. I certainly don't ever mean to do so, but it seems that if someone has not yet decided that Terri is guilty, they are thought to be bashing others in the family.

    As far as evidence they showed Kaine-I believe if they had actual evidence to show him, she would have been charged.
    Just my opinion, of course.



  15. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.
    In fair play I have...What would I do if my husband feels I guilty of hurting or kidnapping his child? Hmmm
    I just shut up and hire criminal lawyer not just any criminal lawyer but the best in OR.

    I will not help find Kyron at all.... oh and also I will start sexting with some guy while Kyron is missing. That make Kaine Jealous

    How am I going to get out this murder to hire to kill him? Hmmm

    The truth is when I walk in Terri's shoes I feel so guilty and start wondering how heck is she is going to come out on top Oh! I know tell where Kyron is

    I really did try to find a reason to find her a victim and I have not found one little bit of info yet to make me see her has a victim.

    Just give me something to make me lean toward Terri innocent.
    Just one thing
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  16. #27
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    Bravo, stmarysmead! Thank you for this thread.

    I think it's time to look at this in terms of logic and recognize that Terri's actions taken as a whole are not those of a loving wife and mother, or even a loyal wife and mother.

    Terri knows where her son is, but Kaine does not know where Kyron is, so why do we judge him more harshly?

    Terri was the last parent to see Kyron alive, and while people want to vilify Desiree and Kaine for not being there that day, the fact that Terri was there shows how much they trusted her as a parent. Yes, the responsibility may have been shoved off on her, but at the same time, she liked to put pictures of Kyron on her Facebook and talk about him to her friends as if she was a loving mother. But a real loving stepmother wouldn't resent him to the point of wanting him gone, and she wouldn't want to kill Kyron's father, for heaven's sake. So let's get real about this.

    I think this a case about the betrayal of trust. I'm absolutely sure that Kaine was in total denial at the beginning and had to be convinced by the police that TH had sought to harm him with the MFH plot.

    It takes years to build up trust, but only a few days to destroy it.

    I had a sister-in-law who cheated with her boss for years. Her husband (my brother) found proof (a hotel receipt where she wasn't supposed to be, and gifts as well).

    He "talked to his wife" - confronting her with the evidence - and she admitted being deceitful. She promised to break it off with her boss forever if my brother would never tell a soul what she did. My brother trusted her and they got back together. He promised he would never tell anyone in the family that she had cheated, and everyone thought they had a wonderful marriage.

    After ten years, my brother began to think she was cheating again, but he had no one to confide in about his fears. My mother was ill and he didn't want to burden her.

    The day after their youngest child turned twenty-one, his wife packed up all her stuff and left town with the boss-man, trashing the house and moving to another side of the state.

    It turned out people in our family had heard rumors but gave her the benefit of the doubt. People had openly been told about her affair but chose not to believe it. Other people talked to her every day and thought they knew her but they were wrong. The divorce tore their family apart and the grown children don't talk to either parent very much anymore.

    So yes, you can give people benefit of the doubt and choose to think the best, but that doesn't mean the rumors aren't true. It doesn't mean that someone isn't capable of lying and ruining a family.

    And that heartbreaking thing happened to my brother's family without a murder, without a missing child - it was just an ordinary betrayal of adultery that happens every day. It happened long before text messages or even email, but it's easy to see how someone truly deceitful and selfish could use technology and networking to have affairs and ruin lives, or even plan a kidnapping or a murder.

    I'm the proud mother of a new attorney!
    It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~ James Thurber
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke
    Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. ~ Mark Twain



  17. #28
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    Wow. The MFH thing? I thought it was Terri who handled it so poorly and made it public fodder, by her actions. None of that should splash back on him, IMO.


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  19. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.
    Respectfully it is not the subject of the thread. We are separating Kaine out, and we have a chance to speak about him as Kyron's father, and as a victim of the kidnapping of his son as well as the alleged victim of a MFH plot.

    I wouldnt walk a mile in Kaine's shoes ever. I think he has done the best he could given the hand he has been dealt, and I will continue to lurk and see if the efforts of all who want to find Kyron actually locate him.
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  20. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayjay View Post
    Wow. The MFH thing? I thought it was Terri who handled it so poorly and made it public fodder, by her actions. None of that should splash back on him, IMO.
    And Kaine cannot be blamed for what adult Terri chose to do with other men or gardners or whomsoever.

    No one plans their own murder for hire!

    And no matter how bad a husband people think Kaine was, his life is protected by the law and he has a right to protect his children.

    I'm the proud mother of a new attorney!
    It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~ James Thurber
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke
    Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. ~ Mark Twain



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