I am tired of the notion that all people should see the signs and stop things before they happen. In some cases, that is true. In some cases, even I'm going, why did that person not see what was wrong here? But in a lot of cases, it's not. I don't think Kaine could have imagined that Terri would want to hurt Kyron much less want Kaine dead. There's no telling what lies she was spinning and what kind of second life she was keeping away from Kaine. Apparently she was good at deceiving others and convincing them that she is something she really is not. Kaine does NOT deserve to be criticized for not being psychic and knowing that he was married to a time bomb.
I'm sure he does feel like an idiot for not seeing it sooner, but dangit, if she was NOT telling him that things were wrong and was only b****ing to other people about it, if she was acting around Kaine like their marriage was perfect or things were at least okay but telling her friends the complete opposite, how in the WORLD is Kaine supposed to know other than being psychic? He really needs to be cut a break on this. Guilty or innocent, Terri is NOT what she seems to be, but yet SHE gets cut all the slack in the world, but Kaine is supposed to be perfect and psychic. That is COMPLETELY not fair.
I mean, come on, before this, he just thought she was a little depressed and maybe needed some counseling. That is a FAR CRY from thinking someone capable of hurting a child or another adult. I mean, everybody has issues these days. It doesn't mean that those issues have to snowball into killing or hurting another human being. Tons of people DEAL with their issues in a constructive manner without taking it as far as that. Terri apparently is not one of those people. Even if she is somehow innocent of what happened with Kyron, she wanted Kaine DEAD. That is NOT normal.
Like I said, if you haven't dealt with the kind of person that lies, deceives, and keeps a whole life away from you, you have no idea what people can do to deceive others and make them think that things are hunky dory when in fact, that is the farthest thing from the truth. I pray that if you haven't dealt with a person like this, that you never ever EVER do.
*And I mean "you" in general, not directed at one person.
All strongly IMO.
Thank you was not enough. Just went through this and thought I was the only one out there. Can't even begin to explain how I missed all the signs. But I did. Believed all the lies, cause people like this are very good at keeping you "out of the loop" keeping you away from all the things they are doing behind your back. No one was hurt physically but the emotional damage was immense. You would think after reading here for years I would have been more aware, but these types are very good at covering their tracks.
The thing is, it is complete hearsay that Terri wanted Kaine dead. There is no proof of that, so it bothers me that the general consensus is that since the LS said it happened, that makes it true. If LE had any proof that Terri wanted Kaine dead and had seriously tried to hire someone to kill him, they'd have arrested her. Since they didn't, and haven't, I have serious doubts about the LS's story.
That said, if Terri DID, in fact, want Kaine dead, then I completely agree that that is not normal. I'd just like to see some proof because in the absence of it, it bugs me to see hearsay accepted as fact.
To have to walk in Kaine's shoes is something i just could not imagine having to do, and pray to god i never will. To have a child die, yes, i have been through that, and it is horrendous enough. But to have your little child go missing not knowing what happened, and only being able to think about what could have possibly happened, must be one of the worst things in life any parent would have to endure. To wake up daily, with that fact, playing on your mind, and that your wife, that you trusted and cared about, and had a child with, could be the reason for the torture you are going through right now with your 7 yr. old son missing, that is just incomprehensible. It seems Kaine was advised by LE to leave the relationship and to get the baby away from the mother. That i would hope is something that would not be advised lightly, if there was no huge risk involved in staying. I feel he is in "damage control" right now! To remove any opportunities to perhaps further endanger his other child and his own life also, until Kyron is hopefully found soon. Even if there was no real substance to the MFH plot, just the mere fact that it was mentioned at the time of your child being missing would be enough to put one into "panic mode".
LE talked to the landscaper, to whom Terri allegedly made a MFP offer. His testimony is not hearsay.
But there were signs. I just didn't always see them. But eventually, things added up, and I had to admit the truth.
I watched the interview the other day with Kaine the day before he left. He clearly and firmly believed in Terri's innocence. Even 3 weeks later, after the polygraph issues, and everything else that in hindsight makes her look guilty, he still believed in her, until LE notified him Saturday of the sting.
Having been through what I've been through, I just don't understand.
It's not Kaine's first run in either with people with serious issues. He's a smart guy with his own dysfunction in his family.
It's just hard for me to understand how TMH can be that deranged, and nobody saw it, not her husband, not her husband's ex, who had every reason to, or even her husband's ex's husband, who is LE, and I'd bet has amazing instincts.
I'm still having a hard time believing the easy, statistically logical answer.
There's no way of knowing if his brother told the truth about being molested as a child, and of course we have no idea if Kaine was a victim as well, but I am not surprised that a person with such a history (either his own or of someone close to him) would tend to tune out the details and specifically problems in his adult relationships. I was struck by how Kaine seemed to have no idea what was going on within his own home. So I wonder if his apparent detachment and "cluelessness" is a defense mechanism learned as a child? His story about how he became involved with Terri would fit into this pattern, too, so I suspect he was this way in his marriage to Desiree.
It would have worked well throughout the years until this forced him to take a long, hard look at his relationship with Terri. In spite of his insistence that everything was "normal", it's pretty obvious it wasn't regardless if the MFHP is true or not. I think I can see evidence that Kaine is slowly coming to that realization (I'm hoping the therapist is helping him through this process).
Please think long and hard before calling a child a 'run-a-way':
You might be giving a 'perk' to the 'perp'.
Democracy requires the occasional necessity of deferring to the opinions of other people. (Winston Churchill)
I've never known anyone who had a sociopath in the family and did not know it. They may not have believed that the person was criminally sociopathic, but they had no doubt that they were a sociopath, whether due to chronic lying, selfishness, indifference to others, etc. I can't imagine living with a person for 6-7 years and not knowing. (I'm sure there are exceptions, even within WS members.) But generally, I would think a person would know, even if they prefer not to acknowledge it.
It is so easy, now that Terri is in the public eye, to suddenly recall characteristics that point to psychosis. Apparently, no one noticed these traits before, which seems odd. She must be very good indeed.
Just my opinion, of course.
I don't think anyone was suspicious of Philip Markoff at all were they?
Sorry, this is long. But since I have the experience, I want to try and explain that she may, in fact, be that good.
Regarding the first bolded section, I lived for several years with someone who I NOW believe to be a sociopath. Not to mention the fact that I have known this person since Kindergarten and lived about two blocks away from him my whole young life. I can tell you that, ime, there were red flags of SOME kind of problem that MIGHT have tipped me off if I had any clue what being a sociopath really means. But those flags didn't start waving obviously until at least a few years into our relationship. SP's (or ASP's, which appears to be the trend name for the disorder) can be very successful in the honeymoon stage.
Which leads me to the second bolded section. It's not the lying, indifference, selfishness, etc. that makes someone an SP. One can do/be all of those things, a little or a lot, and not be a SP. An SP has no sympathy or empathy for ANYONE, EVER, even though they feign it with amazing skill. And you have to have a lot of experience with them and ALL of their interactions to put 2 and 2 together.
From my perspective, one can easily live with a sociopath for a relatively long period of time and not realize exactly what you are dealing with. Each of the isolated behaviors or incidents that actually come to light (most don't), can be excused by a loved one because, although really bad, there are *reasons* for the behavior that loved ones are primed to accept. Mistakes were made and profuse apologies, excuses, expressions of regret and promises to never ever do such-and-such again are profusely forthcoming. None of which are sincere. But you don't know that at the time. You want to believe the excuses and apologies and, because they are delivered so sincerely, you do.
In addition to that, many of your suspicions are explained away in a manner that makes you question whether you are being supremely paranoid. There were MANY times when I questioned my own sanity rather than his. Actually, this scenario was MORE common than the obvious bad behavior followed by apologies. Those only came when their was absolutely no denial or excuse possible. Plausible deniability is the hallmark of the sociopath, imo.
When it really came together for me was kind of similar to this case -- although no child actually went missing, thank goodness. All of the stuff you didn't know about comes to light. You combine that with all of the stuff you already knew about, but which didn't seem *inexcusable* in context. Then you think about the explanations, excuses and apologies you were given and realize that they were all so much bs. Then you think about how the person is behaving currently and realize, with much horror, that you were in the presence of someone who you didn't know AT ALL. That they are capable of literally anything, including murder. And all those denials, excuses and, less frequently, apparently real expressions of regret and contrition you saw from them until things became irretrievable, were just an act designed to keep you in the game. As were all of their amazingly perfect behaviors. You were kept in the game only to serve the purpose of the sociopath.
For me, possibly the most disturbing aspect was that, in retrospect, I saw that every single thing about our relationship was planned -- with patience and scrupulous attention to never, ever letting on what was really going on in that person's head. His game was THAT good. Almost everyone still falls for it since they aren't living it daily, in close quarters, and haven't reached his end game yet -- and probably never will because they're not key players.
I've posted before that I think parents and sibling (who have REALLY long term and very close relationships with SP's) do know that something is seriously wrong. I believe TH could be an SP and, if so, that her own parents do know that something is wrong with her.
I think we wonder how people could have never seen signs afterward because it's so natural to do so, but I really believe seeing the signs depends highly on what kind of person you are and how in tune you are to those types of issues. In my family, there is a history of mental illness and abuse that goes way back, and so over time that has led to a higher level awareness of signs and symptoms of these types of situations and people.
But it's not always obvious to everyone, and yes, some people can be that good that no one knows, not even those closest to them.
I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do.
To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee
Attitus Finch, Chapter 11
So you see, Terri is tame compared to this, in some respects, but I do see several similarities. Jealousy of attention not on her, a secret second life that is more and more proving to not be true (at least what she told her friends - they have backed off and are not supporting her anymore, what does that say? Obviously, she told them a lot of lies about her marriage and her life), a lot of sexual promiscuity and inability to commit to anyone for a long length of time besides parents and siblings (I don't think Terri has siblings, but she definitely does have parents), inflated ego and contempt of anyone not on their side (Them versus the world), and alibi's that are not adding up. Terri just covered her crime up a lot of better than Casey did. And she's been keeping up the lies a lot longer and better too. I do believe she's a sociopath, or at least a pathological liar, and it's now blown up in her face, and poor Kaine and Desiree are paying the price for not seeing it because of how well she kept it from them for seven or more years.
ETA: I am putting myself in Kaine's shoes in this post as to what he or his family might think of what his brother did to illustrate that people do not always know they have a sociopath or pathological liar in the family. Some deny and downplay it for years until it blows up in their faces. I think that is exactly what happened with Kaine in regards to Terri.
Last edited by Aedrys; 09-09-2010 at 10:11 AM.
With all due respect, what he did was both.Just wanted to say, but his brother slept with an underage girl. That is different from abusing children, or raping women.