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  1. #1
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    Prior Vaginal Trauma

    In regard to JonBenet's life and death, the subject often comes up: was she being molested? Obviously, this has severe ramifications for any theory. So, let's break the questions down:

    --Was she or was she not the victim of prior, possibly prolonged vaginal injury?

    If so:

    --Who was doing it?

    --Why were they doing it?

    --Did anyone else know?

    --When did it start?

    --Was it connected to her death?

    If not:

    --What could have caused the injuries to her inner vagina?

    --What motive could there be for blue-ribbon experts to say there was?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  2. #2
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    Madeleine, I hope you don't mind if I move this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine
    Okay,now I don't believe many things that ST put in his book or what was said in the media about his so-called evidence but I really don't think he would lie under oath,especially when talking about someone elses work/opinion.

    Q. Did you know a Dr. Monteleone, M-o-n-t-e-l-e-o-n-e?
    A. As a matter of fact, I think that's the name I could not recall that was the pediatric expert from St. Louis.

    Q. Did he ever indicate that he did not believe that parents would engage in the type of staging that was being argued existed in the Ramsey case in the absence of pathology?

    A. Well, that certainly I think would contradict what he put in a report on letterhead to the Boulder Police Department.

    Q. So you recall that report. Was that one of the documents you copied?

    A. I don't know --

    Q. Or received?

    A. -- if that is, but I do recall that report and in that report I think the outstanding mention was that he was of the opinion that she had sustained prior vaginal trauma prior to December 26 or 25.

    Btw,why would a pediatrician comment re staging or not,that isn't his field of expertise,is LW bluffing here?
    To tell the truth, maddy, I don't know WHAT LW is trying to do here. He certainly doesn't do himself or his clients any favors.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  3. #3
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    While I'm at it, I'd like to address this one specifically to HOTYH and LinasK.

    HOTYH, you said that there was no prima facie evidence that JB suffered prior molestation. Well, I've asked for LinasK's help on this because I get the feeling that you won't take my word for what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway and then she can weigh in.

    For the sake of argument, let's say you're right. What you're overlooking is that one of the big problems with child sexual abuse--if not THE biggest single problem--is that so very often, there is no obvious evidence of it, even when it happens. Many forms of abuse leave no signs at all.

    Moreover, child sexual abuse knows no ethnic, racial or societal bounds. It happens even in "good" families. We all know about the stereotypes of who preys on children: the dirty old man down the street, the creep in sunglasses with a bag of candy, etc. This prejudice may very well be one reason why so much sexual abuse of children goes undetected. We think we're all so hip to the problem and that these creeps are so easy to spot, but the sad fact is that literally EVERY SINGLE THING has to go completely right for one of these creeps to get caught. And as any cop will tell you, when they DO get caught, it's almost never with their first victim.

    How much of it goes undetected, you ask? Well, that's hard to say. Let's try to put it in perspective:

    According to at least one FBI statistic I read, as many as 60% of rape victims do not report their rapes. Of the ones that do, only about 40% of the rapists are arrested. Of those arrested, only about 15% ever see prison time. The reason for this is obvious: because rape is the only crime where the victim can be victimized twice, first by the act itself, then by having to relive it to the police and then in court, where slimy defense lawyers will drag them through hell and back. For most of them, it's just not worth the trauma.

    And bear in mind: these are adult women, supposedly in complete control of their faculties. Imagine now how hard it must be for a small child to come forward. It's their innocence and inability to fight back that makes them such tempting targets. They don't always know it's wrong, and if the perp is a loved one, they may come to associate it with love. More than one child has said that they liked it. Others simply process it as part of life and move on. We keep being told what to look for in abused children: sexual acting out, compulsive masturbation, exaggerated startle reflex, etc. But something like 80% of abused children show NO behavioral symptoms.

    And even if they DO know it's wrong, children are extremely easy to manipulate through bribery or intimidation. Couple that with the child's own fear that if they do tell an adult, the adult won't believe them and might punish them for telling "lies," especially if the perp is a loved one.

    There, I've said my piece. You guys can weigh in now.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  4. #4
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    Thanks, Dave. You quote some really good statistics there, but let me say this: If it has ever happened to a child that you love, those statistics take on new meaning. It did happen to a child that I love very much. He was five years old and all the pervert that molested him had to tell him was that if he told, he would kill his mother. That might sound ridiculus to the adults who read here, but believe me, it's not ridiculus to a five year old. They are scared and permanently scarred and they keep their mouths shut out of fear. Please don't hand me socioeconomic bs. This family is not trailer trash, they are wealthy and well respected members of that community. This child finally told someone after his family brought him 500 miles away for a vacation. He told me because he trusted me to not let his mother get hurt. I'm sorry for the long post but this subject really gets to me in a big way. We always thought that something like this happened to other families. What a joke. If you really believe sexual abuse could not have happened to JonBenet because of who her family is, I don't know what would convince you. Maybe if the pervert ever grew a conscious
    and confessed, but I seriously doubt a lot of people would even believe it then.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    While I'm at it, I'd like to address this one specifically to HOTYH and LinasK.

    HOTYH, you said that there was no prima facie evidence that JB suffered prior molestation. Well, I've asked for LinasK's help on this because I get the feeling that you won't take my word for what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway and then she can weigh in.

    For the sake of argument, let's say you're right. What you're overlooking is that one of the big problems with child sexual abuse--if not THE biggest single problem--is that so very often, there is no obvious evidence of it, even when it happens. Many forms of abuse leave no signs at all.

    Moreover, child sexual abuse knows no ethnic, racial or societal bounds. It happens even in "good" families. We all know about the stereotypes of who preys on children: the dirty old man down the street, the creep in sunglasses with a bag of candy, etc. This prejudice may very well be one reason why so much sexual abuse of children goes undetected. We think we're all so hip to the problem and that these creeps are so easy to spot, but the sad fact is that literally EVERY SINGLE THING has to go completely right for one of these creeps to get caught. And as any cop will tell you, when they DO get caught, it's almost never with their first victim.

    How much of it goes undetected, you ask? Well, that's hard to say. Let's try to put it in perspective:

    According to at least one FBI statistic I read, as many as 60% of rape victims do not report their rapes. Of the ones that do, only about 40% of the rapists are arrested. Of those arrested, only about 15% ever see prison time. The reason for this is obvious: because rape is the only crime where the victim can be victimized twice, first by the act itself, then by having to relive it to the police and then in court, where slimy defense lawyers will drag them through hell and back. For most of them, it's just not worth the trauma.

    And bear in mind: these are adult women, supposedly in complete control of their faculties. Imagine now how hard it must be for a small child to come forward. It's their innocence and inability to fight back that makes them such tempting targets. They don't always know it's wrong, and if the perp is a loved one, they may come to associate it with love. More than one child has said that they liked it. Others simply process it as part of life and move on. We keep being told what to look for in abused children: sexual acting out, compulsive masturbation, exaggerated startle reflex, etc. But something like 80% of abused children show NO behavioral symptoms.

    And even if they DO know it's wrong, children are extremely easy to manipulate through bribery or intimidation. Couple that with the child's own fear that if they do tell an adult, the adult won't believe them and might punish them for telling "lies," especially if the perp is a loved one.

    There, I've said my piece. You guys can weigh in now.
    Whether she was sexually abused prior to the night of her murder has not been proven, only suggested. Regardless, this had nothing to do with her death.

  6. #6
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    Perverts like that are sociopaths. They have no conscience. I am sorry that happened to a child you love. Every child is loved by someone, or at least they should be. This isn't something that happens to "other" families. It can happen to any family. It happened to my husband's brother. He was about 6-7. The perp? A Catholic priest in his parish school (where his mother taught). All that this piece of crap in a roman collar had to say was that if he told, his mother would lose her job. And she needed that job. Both the priest and my brother-in-law are dead now. My nephew was 10 when his dad died and sill misses his father terribly. I hope the priest is burning in hell. As for my brother-in-law, he died a few years ago of liver cancer- brought on by a lifetime of alcohol abuse beginning when he was - can you guess? 6 or 7. That's how the priest got the little boys to cooperate. He got them drunk. I'll be graphic here, so of you are offended easily stop reading NOW. Anal sex is painful for children. To get them to cooperate, unless you plan to kill them, you have to find another method. All that Communion wine so handy right there in the sacristy.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Whether she was sexually abused prior to the night of her murder has not been proven, only suggested. Regardless, this had nothing to do with her death.
    It may have had everything to do with her death, and without knowing who caused her death, it can't be said it had nothing to do with it.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #8
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    Thanks, DeeDee. I'll be very honest here and tell you that when my nephew told me (I was babysitting him that day), he had to go potty. He was old enough to go by himself, but after a few minutes I could hear him sobbing. I ran to the bathroom and asked him why he was crying. I will never forget what he said. I can't tell you Aunt Becky, he'll kill my mama. Oh Lord I can't even describe the feelings that went through me. I called his parents and told them I was on my way to the hospital to have him checked for sexual abuse and that they should meet me there. They did and the whole story finally came out. His mom's 17 year old nephew was living with them. This person was 6'1 and weighed around 275 pounds. Our local police had him arrested in their town and my nephew didn't go home for another 6 months and lots of therapy. This is not a story that I have told often. My own daughters do not know this but they do know how I am about who they trust with my grandchildren. Practically nobody!
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Madeleine, I hope you don't mind if I move this here:



    To tell the truth, maddy, I don't know WHAT LW is trying to do here. He certainly doesn't do himself or his clients any favors.
    Maybe what that doctor meant when saying it was no staging was that the sexual assault that night was real.I believe it was as well and even ST confirms that it's what the dr.'s thought.She was alive when she was assaulted.
    If you(they,LE) can prove this happened before.....voila,it's not the most complicated case in history at all.

    Prior abuse,sexual assault,murder,it's NOT that hard to figure it out if you WANT to.

    IMO
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    In regard to JonBenet's life and death, the subject often comes up: was she being molested? Obviously, this has severe ramifications for any theory. So, let's break the questions down:

    --Was she or was she not the victim of prior, possibly prolonged vaginal injury?

    That's the problem with most of the evidence in this case,some say yes,some say bloody no.(experts)

    If so:

    --Who was doing it?

    Someone who had access to her,family members,friends,workers?It's LE's job to find out.

    --Why were they doing it?

    Sickness.

    --Did anyone else know?

    If it was a relative ,probably.

    --When did it start?

    No idea

    --Was it connected to her death?

    YES

    If not:

    --What could have caused the injuries to her inner vagina?

    No clue.

    --What motive could there be for blue-ribbon experts to say there was?
    Bias?Fame?Money?
    ..............................
    Last edited by madeleine; 09-28-2010 at 02:35 AM.
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "


  11. #11
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    I still would like to know more about dec 23.The 911 call and them not even opening the door when the officer showed up,JB not feeling pretty.I always thought something happened that evening....
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

  12. #12
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    Okay,forget about the child and the child's behaviour.Take a look at the wives in this type of cases (incest,abuse).

    Sometimes the wife's behaviour says even more.

    I don't wanna comment re the R's now but ITA with LinasK when she says PR was the type of woman who always stands by her man,no matter what.I felt that right from the start.And this is all I am saying for now.
    It's one of the reasons I don't think PDI(IF RDI).When I look at them,I see a husband controlling (it's not very visible,it's the gestures,the way they sit next to each other,they way he looks at her and she looks at him,etc)the wife not the other way around.
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Okay,forget about the child and the child's behaviour.Take a look at the wives in this type of cases (incest,abuse).

    Sometimes the wife's behaviour says even more.

    I don't wanna comment re the R's now but ITA with LinasK when she says PR was the type of woman who always stands by her man,no matter what.I felt that right from the start.And this is all I am saying for now.
    It's one of the reasons I don't think PDI(IF RDI).When I look at them,I see a husband controlling (it's not very visible,it's the gestures,the way they sit next to each other,they way he looks at her and she looks at him,etc)the wife not the other way around.
    madeleine, those are very good observations. Add this to the mix. Parents will protect their predator offspring as well. When my nephew was abused, the abuser's parents posted his bail and fled with him so that he would not go to jail. Their lawyer told them that he might get a few months jail time and mandatory therapy as well as SO register. You can bet that wherever this man is he is still abusing children. We have never been able to learn his whereabouts, God help the children wherever that is! Just wanted to throw that in. If JB was abused (I believe she was if even for a very short time before her death), someone was afraid she was going to talk.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

  14. #14
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    To me PR sounds in most of their TV interviews exhausted and tired and she seems to speak only to please him.(she says something,then looks at him,something like "Did I do it right?")He on the other hand is always.............excited like a little boy and enjoys the cameras.
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    To me PR sounds in most of their TV interviews exhausted and tired and she seems to speak only to please him.(she says something,then looks at him,something like "Did I do it right?")He on the other hand is always.............excited like a little boy and enjoys the cameras.
    I always thought JR looked like the cat that ate the canary! I know it's hard to believe, but I do have sympathy for Patsy. It's soooo hard for me to muster sympathy for John Ramsey.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

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