Religion & Confession and the Ramseys

I found this exchange VERY interesting. I am not a religious person so I am unfamiliar with the Ramsey's brand of "faith."

"THOMAS: Well, absolutely. But the Bible also says, without confession, there is no forgiveness.
Patsy, do you think...
J. RAMSEY: It doesn't say that.
THOMAS: It doesn't?
J. RAMSEY: Christ did not ask for repentance when he forgave his executers.
THOMAS: Without confession, there is no forgiveness. Do you think that God will forgive the person that did this?
P. RAMSEY: That's up to that person and God."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/31/lkl.00.html

I'm am not the same faith as the Ramsey's but I am a Christian and the bible tells us that their is no forgivness without repentance. Yes, we must confess our sins to an Almighty God in order to be forgiven, but we do not have to confess them to any mortal man, unless we have wronged that man and need his forgiveness as well. Sure, there's a lot more to it, but that's the "gist" of it. I'm sure in Patsy's mind, she repented of whatever happened to JonBenet and ST was surely trying his best, but I don't think he knew the force of the personality that he was up against in Patsy. I can just see her facing God and daring Him to accuse her. Almost enough to make one pity the Almighty!

joeskidbeck said:

I'm am not the same faith as the Ramsey's but I am a Christian and the bible tells us that their is no forgivness without repentance. Yes, we must confess our sins to an Almighty God in order to be forgiven, but we do not have to confess them to any mortal man, unless we have wronged that man and need his forgiveness as well. Sure, there's a lot more to it, but that's the "gist" of it. I'm sure in Patsy's mind, she repented of whatever happened to JonBenet and ST was surely trying his best, but I don't think he knew the force of the personality that he was up against in Patsy. I can just see her facing God and daring Him to accuse her. Almost enough to make one pity the Almighty!

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I'm not either, but my faith is VERY strong. I agree with Joeskid here except on one point. I'm not sure if she and I disagree, or if I'm reading her meaning wrong. I believe this: While the Bible tells us to ask forgiveness of the person we have wronged (even if that person only perceives it was a wrong, we are still commanded to ask for forgiveness), it is not mandatory we do this in order to be forgiven by God. It is commanded of us to do in order to be obedient to Him, but not to be forgiven by Him.

Joeskid does bring up an interesting point here though. I'm going off topic a little, and I'm sorry for that. BUT - by all accounts, before the murder, I had Patsy pegged as a very strong, willful, intelligent woman. Almost arrogant and overbearing. After the murder, she was reduced to a weepy, spoiled, person who was unable to take care of herself (and expected everyone to take care of her). She also needed medication to be able to cope with day to day things. I completely understand about the death of a child and how devistating it can be, but it looks like to me, a woman that was strong before, would become stronger now - a la Beth Holloway. They don't call us Southern women "Steel Magnolias" for nothing. Does anyone else find this odd or is it just me? Joeskid's last 2 lines above made this come to mind.

Is it devistation or guilt we're seeing?

Thanks, SheBoss. BTW, we do agree on that we don't have to ask man to forgive us in order to be forgiven by God. I don't think He would expect us to be able to keep up with all the perceived wrongs we had done as well as the ones we are certain about (what a scary thought). Yes, Patsy did get pretty weepy after JB's death, but in my opinion, it was only when it suited her. There were times in some of the interviews that the old Steel Magnolia came through loud and clear. Remember when she came back with "You don't want to go there, Buddy" when questioned about Burke's involvement? She tempered it down quite a bit, and I'm sure some of it was due to her health, but it was still evident at times.

SheBoss said:

While the Bible tells us to ask forgiveness of the person we have wronged (even if that person only perceives it was a wrong, we are still commanded to ask for forgiveness), it is not mandatory we do this in order to be forgiven by God. It is commanded of us to do in order to be obedient to Him, but not to be forgiven by Him.

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Wonder if PR and JR ever asked FW and PW to forgive them.

I find your point important, Linda7NJ.

I believe the Ramseys used their religious beliefs to help them deal with the guilt they felt for what happened and the snowball of lies and deceit their lives became after the murder. I think they submersed themselves as deeply in denial as they could without being in a coma.

I also believe they used their religion to gain the trust of people who otherwise had questions about whether they were involved in this crime.

When they appeared on the Christian Broadcast Network being interviewed by one of the ministers, they said a number of telling things, as well. They were on their book tour, by the way, something in their contract they had to do. When asked by a surprisingly skeptical minister during the interview if he should tell pastors, when asked, if the Ramseys should be accepted into their church, John said, What if we did kill our daughter? Wouldn't we be the very people who should be welcomed into the church? That's a paraphrase, but close enough. It was stunning.

I can't imagine innocent parents saying such a thing in a million years, knowing how brutally their child was killed.

wow,what they actually said is even more telling than your paraphrase:

SCOTT: The bottom line, below the bottom line, people will ask me, "O.K., you've come out of this, confidentially, what do you think? There is also a side not only as a journalist, but being an ordained minister in the church, to say to other pastors, if they ask me, "Would you recommend to let these people come to my church?"

JOHN: Let me ask you this? What if we were murderers? Would we be denied access to a church? I hope not.

PATSY: That's the people who need to be there. Aren't we "preaching to the choir" as they say.

SCOTT: Well, they still say that.

JOHN: That is a problem we Christians have in our churches.

PATSY: We need to welcome everyone.

it truly is stunning,JR bringing up that they may be murderers and PR chiming right in.I don't care how strong your faith is NO ONE would bring this up on their own after their child was murdered.Maybe if it would have been the interviewer asking "what if your daughter's killer wanted to join this church?" they may have said "as hard and impossible as it sounds due to our faith we would have to accept that everyone is welcome in church"...instead they go on a cheer leading campaign for murderers all on their own....

Murderers of children belong in prison. They can go to prison church, I'm ok with that.
I wouldn't want a murderer of my child anywhere near any church, because if they are in church, they didn't confess to LE, and therefore haven't come to terms with the horror of what they have done, thus more than capable of doing it again.

A truly repentant murderer would want justice for the child, closure for the child's family, and a clean conscience before The One True Judge.

When you bring your offering before God, and realize someone has "aught" against you, leave your offering on the alter, go to that one, and ask for forgiveness, He doesn't say they have to forgive you, only that you ask for it. Then return and offer your sacrifice to God. paraphased a whole bunch...but hopefully you get my point.

It reminds me of a woman a few years ago that was involved in a bank robbery where a LEO or guard was killed.
She turned herself in, albeit many years later as she had committed the crime in the 70's, pled guilty and went to prison.
Many people were unhappy with the shortness of her sentence, but imo, she came to terms with her involvement, and she held herself accountable for her actions.
That's what God wants imo. Forgiveness isn't cheap. It comes with a price, ie, the two thieves on the crosses next to Jesus. "We deserve what has come upon us, but this man has done nothing deserving of what is happening to him."
This is the man who was forgiven; the one who recognized his guilt, and was cognizent of the justice due him, I think it's called humility. The one on the other side showed no remorse, and no honor for God or man, I think it's called arrogance. moo
,
But whatever you know, to each his own. We each work out our own salvation with fear, ie, "seeing" the horror of what we've done, and trembling, ie, awe that God would possibly forgive us to begin with and the awesome sacrifice that was made so we could be forgiven, and thus reunited with Him.
moo and all that.

Not sure whether their religious talk is just propaganda or whether it goes deeper and had something to do with the fact that JB died Xmas night.
"she's safe now","she's better off","she won't have to suffer".....what excuses are these? :waitasec: never got it,no matter how religious you are,this is not comforting.....she's safe now.....what,wasn't she safe before?why?

Only 5 days after she was killed:

we know in our hearts that JonBenet is safe and with God

CABELL: Do you take some comfort in believing that JonBenet Ramsey is in a better place.

RAMSEY, J: Yes. That's the one thing we want people dealing with us to know, to believe that, we know that in our heart.



RAMSEY, P: She'll never have to know the loss of a child . She will never have to know cancer or death of a child.

RAMSEY, J: We learned when we lost our first child that people would come forward to us, that sooner or later everyone carries a very heavy burden in this life. And JonBenet didn't carry any burdens.






IMO no matter how religious you are,you still go through the 5 stages of grief.

1.Denial – "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."
Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of positions and individuals that will be left behind after death.
2.Anger – "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"
Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. Any individual that symbolizes life or energy is subject to projected resentment and jealousy.
3.Bargaining – "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."
The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just have more time..."
4.Depression – "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die... What's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the dying person begins to understand the certainty of death. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and grieving. This process allows the dying person to disconnect oneself from things of love and affection. It is not recommended to attempt to cheer up an individual who is in this stage. It is an important time for grieving that must be processed.
5.Acceptance – "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, the individual begins to come to terms with his mortality or that of his loved one.


I didn't see any of this in the R's behaviour.

Said it before,IMO not even pain - killers kick in THAT fast!
Is it possible that through religion you accept such a tragedy that fast?Asking those whose believe in such things.

I mean,it's not like she went to heaven because she wanted it or because it was the right time.Hello!It's not like she was suffering from a terminal disease which caused her great pain.Her life was ended in a brutal manner and there are still things to fix before you can say that it's fine,she's in heaven now,a better place,it's all good!

Linda7NJ said:

I found this exchange VERY interesting. I am not a religious person so I am unfamiliar with the Ramsey's brand of "faith."

"THOMAS: Well, absolutely. But the Bible also says, without confession, there is no forgiveness.
Patsy, do you think...
J. RAMSEY: It doesn't say that.
THOMAS: It doesn't?
J. RAMSEY: Christ did not ask for repentance when he forgave his executers.
THOMAS: Without confession, there is no forgiveness. Do you think that God will forgive the person that did this?
P. RAMSEY: That's up to that person and God."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/31/lkl.00.html

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I must admit, I don't know a lot about this case, however, I read the whole show from your link, and PR was the first one to bring "faith" into the discussion;


P. RAMSEY: I have a faith that comes from only one source. God knows who killed JonBenet Ramsey. Steve Thomas does not know, Patsy Ramsey does not know, and John Ramsey does not know. God knows, and the truth is going to prevail. This is not...
KING: You have complete faith in that?
P. RAMSEY: Absolutely. We -- with the help of the police authorities, this case can be solved.
KING: Well, we've made a leap forward here, if they all sit down. You've got to agree with that?
THOMAS: Well, absolutely. But the Bible also says, without confession, there is no forgiveness.
Patsy, do you think...
J. RAMSEY: It doesn't say that.
THOMAS: It doesn't?
J. RAMSEY: Christ did not ask for repentance when he forgave his executers. What He said was, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." What is interesting is that His "executers" also plotted to and did cover up His rising from the dead with bribery.

Not that I'm saying they are guilty of murdering their daughter, but JR's analogy is interesting indeed.

THOMAS: Without confession, there is no forgiveness. Do you think that God will forgive the person that did this?
P. RAMSEY: That's up to that person and God.
J. RAMSEY: That's up to God.


So, I went to the source and this is what I found;



and that repentance and remission of sins should be proclaimed in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Luke 24:47; which referred me to this;









When God saw by their deeds that they had turned from their evil way, he relented and did not bring on them the punishment he had threatened.


Jonah 3:10


If they killed their daughter, and used money to cover it up, they didn't "turn" but continued the "assault" as JR would say.

If they did not kill their daughter, then they knew they were suspects, and protected themselves, which I personally would not hold against them. LE is very powerful, and their job is to build a case that the prosecuters can win. If they had tunnel vision, and ignored evidence like dna under JBR's findernails, then the Ramseys' did the only thing they could do, imo, which was to hire their own investigators.

Personally, imo, ST is correct when he says there is reasonable doubt as to whether it was an intruder, or PR and/or JR. fwiw. moo and all that.

Ok, the "That's up to God," reminded me so much of RC and his "Only God can judge me" banner on the back window of this truck.

eek.

RAMSEY, P: She'll never have to know the loss of a child . She will never have to know cancer or death of a child.

This is one of the weirdest things she ever said IMO.
Yes she'll be spared the horrors of life but she was denigned the Joys and the chance to have a life.

Dunno on which show it was but she was angry at some question and answered irritated "only God knows and he's not telling."

actually the most fascinating thing to me about that exchange in the OP is that PR played the whole that's between that person and god kinda stuff. about a year ago I started at this link and then read all over the net about interrogations, and what PR did is one of the things they look for when determining likelihood of guilt in an interrogation. it was NO accident the interrogator asked her this sort of question. I am 90% sure that link there states this but I've an antsy 3 year old and I cant reread it in full at this time.

normal parents of murdered children, when asked if the perp who did this deserves a second chance, or could be forgiven, etc will answer in MANY ways but the only time they answer "every one deserves a second chance" sorts of statements are when they are the perps themselves.

frankly one more nail in the RDI for me.

slug said:

RAMSEY, P: She'll never have to know the loss of a child . She will never have to know cancer or death of a child.

This is one of the weirdest things she ever said IMO.
Yes she'll be spared the horrors of life but she was denigned the Joys and the chance to have a life.

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Maybe she meant it like

She'll never have to know the loss of a child(LIKE I DID) . She will never have to know cancer or death of a child.(LIKE I DID).

she will never have to suffer like I did....

still......their acceptance (only 5 days after the brutal,senseless murder) is hard to get

slug said:

RAMSEY, P: She'll never have to know the loss of a child . She will never have to know cancer or death of a child.

This is one of the weirdest things she ever said IMO.
Yes she'll be spared the horrors of life but she was denigned the Joys and the chance to have a life.

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sounds just like casey anthony talking about caylee in her jailhouse letters to "cookie", doesnt it? so where are all the mothers NOT accused of murdering their child, who've had a child murdered, that say things like this?

2goldfish said:

actually the most fascinating thing to me about that exchange in the OP is that PR played the whole that's between that person and god kinda stuff.

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Yep something like "it's none of your business,it's between me and Him and he will decide and judge me and punish me if so,not you"