Ask Super Part 3

Hi, gang.

Once again, I'm opening the floodgates wide open.

This is a conversation I had with HOTYH some days ago:

HoldontoyouHat said:

They would know ahead of time that staging a kidnapping would get the attention of not only local police but also the FBI. Since the ransom note author refers to the FBI we could presume they were aware.

Click to expand...

SuperDave said:

That's what the lawyers were for. I'm not being a smart-*advertiser censored** here, either. Even if you don't believe that they might have thought they were smart enough to outwit the police and FBI, they had the resources to try and muddy up the water as best they could in the hope that it would create enough doubt.

That's the crux of it, as far as I go. I don't necessarily think they were out to fool the police or the FBI. Because they don't have to fool the police. They don't have to fool the FBI. They don't have to fool pathologists. They don't have to fool SuperDave. They don't have to fool HoldontoyourHat.

They have to fool one person out of twelve. THAT'S IT. As PT Barnum is supposed to have said, "there's a sucker born every minute." And, sadly, a LOT of those suckers find their way onto juries and give us OJ Simpson "justice." And they knew that. They watched the Simpson trial. There's your how-to manual right there.

I'm often criticized for not including parental love as a factor in this case. Well, as I see it, HOTYH, you're not factoring in an even stronger primal emotion, namely FEAR. More specifically, self-preservation and the fear of the police and what awaited them in prison. It doesn't matter what might have actually happened to them at the hands of the legal system as much as what they THOUGHT could happen

Click to expand...

.

So, let's have at it.

I think the theory that the plan was to dump her body outside after the police left might be viable here. Only problem the police never left. With a body dumped outside the home the R's could easily avoid scrutiny of them selves. I also think a search warrant would be harder to obtain and make crime scene clean up easier. The suspicion goes away if the body is found outside the home. They didn't follow directions and look at what happened. Could explain the need to gather witnesses sorry friends and neighbors to the home. Especially neighbors who might see JR move the body outside.
It wasn't my theory but I read it and it seems to fit the questions as to why the R's would "stage" a kidnapping when they knew it was a murder.

There are a few other emotions I can see at work. I honestly believe Burke is involved. That sets up the anger in P & J. guilt, that they had a child who could do anything like this, or that they didn't know what was happening under their own roof, and shame, (the how did we go wrong syndrome), as well as the frustration of having to cover it all up. They had already lost one child, two for John. They were not going to lose another child. Hence elaborate staging that was way over the top and really gives the best clues as to what happened and why.

CathyR said:

I think the theory that the plan was to dump her body outside after the police left might be viable here. Only problem the police never left. With a body dumped outside the home the R's could easily avoid scrutiny of themselves. I also think a search warrant would be harder to obtain and make crime scene clean up easier. The suspicion goes away if the body is found outside the home. They didn't follow directions and look at what happened. Could explain the need to gather witnesses sorry friends and neighbors to the home. Especially neighbors who might see JR move the body outside.
It wasn't my theory but I read it and it seems to fit the questions as to why the R's would "stage" a kidnapping when they knew it was a murder.

Click to expand...

Sort of the "Tell-Tale Heart" idea? Maybe.

I don't think they ever would have dumped her body outside. I DO think they thought that police would come after the 911 call, take a statement, look at the note, etc. and LEAVE. At that point, they would have called police back and say that JB had been dumped on the porch or something like that, killed because they called police.
When police did NOT leave, and it became apparent that they were not GOING to leave the parents (and entourage) alone in the house, they had to find a way of getting her up from the basement. So as soon as JR was told by Det, Arndt to "take another look around", though Arndt meant for him to look in JB's ROOM, he instead surprised her by taking off immediately for the basement, and not just for the basement, but the wineceller, the exact spot where she was. I mean, he didn't even PRETEND to look around. He went right to where she was and that speaks VOLUMES to his knowledge that she was there.

Yes, DeeDee and that fact was obvious not only to Arndt, but I believe to Fleet White as well. I also believe there were at least two other people there that morning who knew exactly what was going on and were only there to help in the cover up.

This is yet another reason I feel Burke was involved. I can't imagine adults covering for J & P, but think about how they would feel if they knew one child hurt the other. The sympathy and shock factor could encourage them to be involved. This of course would make the Ramseys even MORE disgusting when they turned on the friends that befriended them.

Only thing that makes me wonder, is the fact that this is a HUGE secret, for that many people to keep.

DeeDee249 said:

I don't think they ever would have dumped her body outside. I DO think they thought that police would come after the 911 call, take a statement, look at the note, etc. and LEAVE. At that point, they would have called police back and say that JB had been dumped on the porch or something like that, killed because they called police.
When police did NOT leave, and it became apparent that they were not GOING to leave the parents (and entourage) alone in the house, they had to find a way of getting her up from the basement. So as soon as JR was told by Det, Arndt to "take another look around", though Arndt meant for him to look in JB's ROOM, he instead surprised her by taking off immediately for the basement, and not just for the basement, but the wineceller, the exact spot where she was. I mean, he didn't even PRETEND to look around. He went right to where she was and that speaks VOLUMES to his knowledge that she was there.

Click to expand...

Precisely. And here is additional supportive information from Steve Thomas' book, Jon Benet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation---(Pg.28)

"At one o'clock that afternoon, Arndt enlisted Fleet White to help keep Ramsey's mind occupied. Making a decision for which she would later be criticized she suggested they go through the house 'from top to bottom' to see if they could find anything belonging to the missing girl. No police officer was available to escort them, which meant the two cilvilians would be roaming the house unsupervised.

John Ramsey was on the move at once and headed immeadiately for the basement, starting at the bottom of the house instead of the top as the detective suggested. Fleet White followed him down."

This case almost destroyed Steve Thomas because he cared so much and could see so much that was done wrong. I was so impressed with him and his book.

I had notes I had made from the third day after the murder, and then bought each book as it came out. I was also one of the first to be kicked off of an online forum because I posted concerns about feeling that Patsy Ramsey was lying. I was so into this case that I was almost sick over it from being enraged. I threw the notes away after I watched Patsy Ramsey's funeral and felt the truth died with her even though I felt John Ramsey knew exactly what had happened to Jon Benet.

My late husband (retired LE) thought Burke had done the murder and the parents had done the coverup. I think that Patsy Ramsey killed Jon Benet in a rage and did the staging in the basement. I have always thought that and no book or article has ever changed my mind.

I remember being so angry at Arndt for being so unprofessional and going against SOP of keeping them altogether and not even letting the adults outside of the family remain in the home. NO ONE should have been allowed out of sight of LE once LE had arrived unless there were two officers there to escort one around the house. Arndt should never have been left alone with all of the people in the house. IMO, the scene was never properly secured to begin with. Even now, I feel such anger coming on at how this case was handled. Arndt made the first mistakes, then Alex (DA) and his troop made his/their mistakes, then Lou Schmidt (sp?) came along and made the rest of the mistakes with his theories, getting so close to the Ramsey's, praying with them, and being unprofessional.

I feel that Patsy Ramsey was spoiled and coddled because of her having cancer. Anyone would have been if it was thought to be terminal. She was accustomed to the attention and fawning. Here it was Christmas and there was so much to do to get ready for the trip on Christmas day. Jon Benet may have soiled her clothes or sleeping clothes and Patsy just lost it. I'm sorry, but I have always seen Patsy as a very angry person who could be vindictive. I do believe she was jealous of Jon Benet in some ways. Patsy had a cancer she knew she could die from. Jon Benet was so young, already beautiful, and had her entire life ahead of her. There was some jealousy there, IMO.

I do not profess to know how it happened, but I feel Patsy Ramsey was responsible. I also think that Burke knows some of what happened as well and had heard Patsy and John talking about it even before (and during) the 911 call.

Mods, please move this post if it does not belong in this thread.

MOO

Thank you, LaLaw2000. I can see you are passionate about JonBenet and her lack of justice. I also agree with most of your opinions as I think Patsy was a time bomb that had been ticking loudly for quite a while. Her friends heard the tick tock and knew that they needed to try and get her some help, sadly they waited too late. I believe that's why they ran over there to help that morning. They knew she finally blew and each felt some responsibility for not going to her sooner. That's some of my opinion, there's a lot more, but I won't go into that just now. Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone here.

Thank you, joeskidbeck. I have been avoiding this forum for a very long time because I knew what it would do to me.

I am furious about this gross miscarriage of justice. And yes, there is so very much more but I cannot post a 300 page post and you cannot either!

I will NEVER forget Jon Benet and what was done to her!

LaLaw...too bad you threw those notes away
I would have loved to know what your thoughts where back then when everything was fresh.I started to follow this case pretty late,after the JMK fiasco.I haven't seen most of the Ramsey videos (the old ones) because they were/are no longer available.For ex.I would LOVE to see the LKL video with ST and the R's.I only read the transcript,it's not the same.I would have loved to watch their first press conference,only read the transcript.SO I kinda envy those who've seen all that back then.

madeleine, I had just been in a bad vehicle accident in the November before Jon Benets' murder in December. I spent the whole next year with different surgeries, so all I really could do was just laze around and recover. I followed the case very closely.

To put it maybe a little too bluntly, I have always felt that Patsy Ramsey lied and John Ramsey did also. I think Patsy flew into a rage and killed Jon Benet. Maybe she was just going to show Jon Benet just how bad ovarian cancer hurt. IDK, but I do believe she did it and have never waivered from that belief. IMO, Patsy was a very angry woman. I think Patsy Ramsey liked the idea of having children but did not want to be bothered with taking care of them, and was jealous of Jon Benet. John Ramsey immediately knew where to go to find Jon Benet when Arndt told them to look over the house. I think John covered for Patsy.

JMO

LaLaw2000 said:

Maybe she was just going to show Jon Benet just how bad ovarian cancer hurt.

Click to expand...

I am not a PDI but I never thought about this and it's a VERY interesting idea.Since we are all banging our heads here to make sense of the injuries she suffered down there.

"I think John covered for Patsy."

This is another big reason I don't think PDI.
This man already lost a child/daughter and suffered a LOT.
I just don't see him covering for such a sick wife and let her raise BR after this.
I just don't see him doing this only for the family reputation.Nor to save PR from jailtime.
When she speaks (lies?) in front of the camera and he sits next to her,I don't see rage in his eyes,I see a careful man,controlling.You would at least see some anger towards her if she did it and he's totally innocent but covering for her outta....love?what love if she took away his precious daughter because she lost control.
No sane man(especially one who already lost a child and suffered) would do this for such a wife.I will never believe this,never.

IMO

Unless he has something to hide as well,which IMO changes all scenarios.

No matter what happened, both J & P are guilty. If Burke did it, which I believe, they both covered for him. If Patsy did it, John covered for her. If John did it, well you get my point.

The thing is, that Patsy could relieve herself of much of the daily grind of raising children. She had a housekeeper, who picked up after the children, etc. I would like to believe that with the money they had, that it would have been very simple to send the children to boarding school, if it was too much for Patsy at the time. I think John would have insisted on it.

Do I think she was at the edge, ready to implode? Yes, but I am not sure she was to the point of exploding with enough force to deliberately kill JB. Even though I agree she may have been jealous, she was also very proud of Jon Benet. She was her Mommy's trophy.

SunnieRN said:

she was also very proud of Jon Benet. She was her Mommy's trophy.

Click to expand...

Yes.Her "work of art" like her paintings.The result of her hard working.
And a mommy who is always obsessed about how clean your fingernails are or about how perfect your hair is.......leave such an ugly mark on her neck?Such a mother wouldn't wanna destroy what she created,the beauty.
With PR staging the scene I guess there wouldn't have been the too large bloomies,the ugly garrote,the stained pink gown,I would have rather expected some lipstick or a crown or something,ugh I am getting creepy.

Such a perfectionist would never redress her child/the beauty perfect queen in bloomies that large.But I deffo see a man doing it,they don't notice the difference.

madeleine said:

Such a perfectionist would never redress her child/the beauty perfect queen in bloomies that large.But I deffo see a man doing it,they don't notice the difference.

Click to expand...

I disagree. She was only a perfectionist when putting on a show for others, in public. At home Pasty was a slob. IMO It was all about apperances.

Linda7NJ said:

I disagree. She was only a perfectionist when putting on a show for others, in public. At home Pasty was a slob. IMO It was all about apperances.

Click to expand...

Agreed - she wore the same clothes often, did not bathe JB everyday or herself for that matter.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

If JR did it and I mean all of it the molestation included and enjoyed the twisting of the garrote in a sick way - then why would Patsy write the note and cover for him? Unless she was afraid of losing her husband, fortune and reputation or afraid of him.

If Patsy did it and was lying to everyone including her husband and staged everything - why the garrote? Why make it look like such a painful torturous death? Why not just leave it at the hitting of the head and then the fake sexual assault for the evidence of intruder. Why the twine and twisting of it? Unless she hated her child and enjoyed this too after hitting her so hard by accident out of anger. I wonder if Patsy had ever heard, read or seen a story somewhere of someone staging a crime scene and she knew she had to make it seem like a monster did it rather than a simple accident staged like a murder? Like somehow she knew the only way to make it believable was to make it look or seem gruesome.

If it was Burke's game and he was a sick child who enjoyed the twisting and had the strength to hit JB so hard over the head and also commit the sexual assault - then why no other trouble in his teens? Why would such a sick child not re-offend? How did he not make a mistake throughout his young life that revealed more about what he knew? A confession to a friend over drinks? An inappropriate joke, gesture etc.

If an intruder did it - then how on earth was he not found and how did he get in and out and how did he know so much about the family? We have to believe this intruder was either a neighbor or someone who knew them. How did he escape LE and his own friends and family? Maybe a loner who obssessed over JB who made himself invisible and planned this to the exact moment? Watched for fun from a far?

It is hard to make a firm guess on what happened for me. I will always wonder. MO.