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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I was thinking about that but IMO the shorter tail is too short.
    It wouldn't have been before it was tied, that's my point.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


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  3. #92
    According to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police knot expert, he concluded that it was a Prusik knot. Prusik knots are mainly used for mountain climbing and it took me less than a minute to tie one.

    I know JAR rock climbed and JBR was set to start rock climbing classes.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98


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  5. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    According to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police knot expert, he concluded that it was a Prusik knot. Prusik knots are mainly used for mountain climbing and it took me less than a minute to tie one.

    I know JAR rock climbed and JBR was set to start rock climbing classes.
    BR knew about sailing and knots, He was a Scout, and knew how to tie knots. That knot was not a complicated one. If anyone here is a knot expert and can say that it IS complicated, please explain it to us.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.


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  7. #94
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    Animated Knots, The Constrictor knot:

    http://www.animatedknots.com/constri...matedknots.com


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  9. #95
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    Does anyone know what wire they are talking about ?

    from the search warrant

    -wire near body

    http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...ey/search.html


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  11. #96
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    -cigarette butts, leaves and bag

    where exactly did they find these?


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    otg

  13. #97
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    Part - 3 [The Knot Around JonBenet’s Neck]

    What can I tell you about this knot? Unfortunately, it’s difficult to tell from the only available pictures exactly what the knot is that is tied here. It doesn’t appear to have any particular design or structure to it. It’s not one that I recognize from my “repertoire”, and I have searched as many sources as I can find. It may well be some type of knot that is the result of its collapsing due to the strain put on it. If anyone else thinks they can identify it, given the limited views we have of it, please do. Until that time, I will say that I think it is a “simple” knot tied by someone who wasn’t trying to accomplish a specific purpose other than to secure a loop around JonBenet’s neck, realizing that we don’t know at this point what that person’s ultimate goal was in placing it there. If that person had a specific purpose, it would well have been better served with a better knot designed for the purpose (if the person was skilled at knot tying).

    But what is more important than analyzing exactly what it is, I feel, is what it did. After all, it is the knot tied on the cord which caused the deep ligature furrow, and probably the one which caused the strangulation (more on that later). I should note here that all of this is just my opinion, and that it is based on the information and pictures that have been made public. I do not claim that I am any kind of authority or expert at this, or anything else.

    This knot was clumsily (IMO) tied to her neck and acted as a “slip knot”. [Definition: A slip knot, also called a running knot, is a broad classification of knots that basically refers to any knot that can "slip" along the rope or cord, and/or can be untied by simply pulling one of the ends. A slip knot is sometimes referred to as a simple noose, and has wide range of applications.] How easily it will slip will depend on the exact slip knot that is tied, and how tightly it is tied to the rope or cord it is attached to.

    Now, a couple of things I want to call your attention to, because it will be important later when we put all of this together. I know it’s difficult, but while we’re on the subject of this particular knot, take a look at the leaked autopsy photo showing the ligature still on JonBenet’s neck (Don’t ask me to post it here -- you can all find it.) Take note of, and remember for later, the position (circumferentially around the neck) of where it is. Can we call it her right side below the ear?

    Next I’ll tell you about the “knot” I saved for discussing last -- the one on the broken paint stick.
    .


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  15. #98
    I believe the cord was tied around JonBenet's neck while she lay unconcious. The hair and necklace tangled in the cord so much so that the Coroner had to cut her hair speaks volumes. The furrow was a perfect circumference except for a small upward line behind her neck. That poor baby was still alive when the cord was placed around her neck. The swelling from the head blow caused the cord to furrow into her skin.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98


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  17. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Does anyone know what wire they are talking about ?

    from the search warrant

    -wire near body
    I don’t know about the “wire near body”, but there is another strange wire listed in the evidence as “wire tied in a knot”. I believe it is pictured here and here.

    Wire is sometimes used to “demonstrate” a knot because it is rigid enough to stay in place when bent, showing how a particular knot is tied. I don’t think (JMO) this one is significant though, although I too have wondered about the “wire near body”.

    Anyone?



    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    -cigarette butts, leaves and bag

    where exactly did they find these?
    I think these were collected outside when they were collecting anything that might possibly be evidence of an "intruder" -- you know, the "pedophile, kidnapping murderer".
    .


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  19. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    I believe the cord was tied around JonBenet's neck while she lay unconcious. The hair and necklace tangled in the cord so much so that the Coroner had to cut her hair speaks volumes. The furrow was a perfect circumference except for a small upward line behind her neck. That poor baby was still alive when the cord was placed around her neck. The swelling from the head blow caused the cord to furrow into her skin.
    Toltec,

    I must agree with you. It looks very much like deliberate staging to me.

    JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report, excerpt
    Neck: Dissection of the neck is performed after removal of
    the throacoabdominal organs and the brain. The anterior strap
    musculature of the neck is serially dissected. Multiple
    sections of the sternocleidomastoid muscle disclose no
    hemorrhages. Sections of the remainder of the strap
    musculature of the neck disclose no evidence of hemorrhage.
    Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and
    hyoid bone disclose no evidence of fracture or hemorrhage.
    Multiple cross sections of the tongue disclose no hemorrhage
    or traumatic injury. The thyroid gland weights 2 gm and is
    normal in appearance. Cut sections are finely lobular and
    red-tan. The trachea and larynx are lined by smooth pink-tan
    mucosa without intrinsic abnormalities.
    Here the critical phrase is no hemorrhage, and including all the other references to absences e.g. intact hyoid, then the garrote was never used as a strangulation device.

    Prior to her death JonBenet had been subject to sexual contact, and someone then attempted to obscure this by using the paintbrush handle to injure her internally. Probably leaving the missing piece internally, since any evidence left on the missing piece will also appear on the other two pieces?

    There was more than one staging, the change of clothing reflects this, along with the addition of the garrote. Its possible each staging reflects the intentions of each stager.

    So if a PDI e.g. bedwetting rage, then Patsy cleans up accordingly, and decides to leave JonBenet apparently dead in her bed?

    But John offers some advice and then assists Patsy to restage down in the basement, and its him that ties the knot, breaks the paintbrush etc, wipes JonBenet down with his shirt, assaults JonBenet internally, but Patsy being present etc transfers some forensic evidence. All this is done with John offering Patsy some rationale as to why it is better than her staging scenario. Its only at the interview stage does Patsy realize that JonBenet was victim of prior molestation. Then its too late she is an accomplice in a much more serious crime, a capital offence.

    If its JDI then why would Patsy ever assist John with the staging? Only if she was aware and aquiesced with the prior molestation.

    If its BDI, then you have have a motive for involving both parents, but prior knowledge of the chronic abuse is required to then stage a sexual assault, intending to obscure the former.

    So there was sexual contact just prior to her death, and at least one chronic episode of sexual molestation in the days leading up to her death. Although her chronic internal injuries suggest multiple episodes. With staging contrived to mask the chronic sexual molestation, this tells us one or both of the parents was aware of this.

    Thus making the death of JonBenet a sexually motivated homicide.


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  21. #101
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    Please allow me to say this. Corporal John J. Van Tassel is truly a gentleman, and a consummate professional. I don’t think that he has anywhere stated anything about his findings other than to the BPD, and to the Grand Jury. If it has been reported by someone (I haven’t seen it) that he said anything about his findings, it is most likely third-hand and not to believed. He has not discussed or revealed, and will not discuss or reveal, anything about any ongoing criminal investigation he has been involved in until it has been resolved.

    I know that Steve Thomas wrote in his book a few sentences about what he (Van Tassel) observed about the particular brand of cord that was used, but there was no other information given about his official findings or the report that was given.

    Before any of us add to all of the misconceptions and fallacies that have already been attached to this case, please be careful about stating something as fact unless we are sure that it is.

    I apologize if I seem a bit imperious about that, but let’s look at facts about which we are sure, and state opinion, speculation, or rumor as being what they are.

    Bonus: See Page 6
    .


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  23. #102
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    [All quotes: CathyR.]

    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    I surmise that the knot is difficult to tie.
    No, it is a very simple knot actually, and there's nothing sophisticated or professional about it.
    On the contrary, all knots (including the wrist knots) were clumsily and amateurishly tied.

    As for the neck knot, it's the type of knot you get when tying a cord around e.g. a roll of household paper while not using the two ends (as one does in tying a shoelace), but instead wrap only one end of the cord around the main cord.

    Prosecutor Mike Kane himself btw stated verbatim that the BPD's own knot expert had coe to the conclusion that those knots were very simple.

    To assert that the knots were "sophisticated" is a myth the Ramseys deliberately created to suggest that a professional was at work here. killer. Like a sexual predator having "expertise" with such devices. Or a foreign faction having expertise in "professionally" executing their victims.
    Lou Smit swallowed the Ramseys' staged scene hook, line and sinker, and the media spread the myth further.
    If one piece of the brush is pointing to them then all pieces of it are pointing.
    Correct.
    All would have been destroyed, awareness of the need to destroy one would also make them destroy all.
    The crime scene indicates that the stager's mind was not functioning in an analytical manner. Imo the reason for that can be easily explained when one thinks of the immense psychological pressure on parents who are trying to cover up the domestic homicide of their child.
    If staging was on their part they wouldn't leave any of it behind. All pieces would have been destroyed, especially the brush end in Patsy's tray.
    See above. Imo they made these mistakes because they, given the situation, were not in a position enabling them to think anything through logically.
    If they have tested the cord and knots looking for DNA then they haven't revealed that info.
    If the DNA on the cord showed any evidence an intruder, what reason would LE they have for not revealing it?
    I'm 100 % certain that (unless she was wearing gloves), Patsy's DNA is on the neck ligature. But I'm not at all sure a task force headed by Beckner would reveal this info ...
    I feel the perp broke the end of the handle off after the knot was tied.
    Jmo too, but I would replace "perp" with "stager", since the stager of the scene need not necessarily been the killer, although is very likely.
    (But Patsy could have covered up for another family member who committed the homicide).

    If the handle was broken after the knot was tied, it indicates staging. For if the handle is not needed to tie the knot (and it is indeed not needed, it is downright counterproductive), this reveals the handle as mere stage prop fashioned to suggest a "cruelly tortured and garroted" scenario.
    That is where the splinter came from or what is refereed to as cellulose material. The proximity of the breakage had to occur shortly before it was used as the tiny amount found would have most likely fallen off close to where it is broken or transferred to the area around where it was broken.
    You have an excellent eye for detail, and your focus on those (often crucially important!) details is much appreciated.
    The small amount of birefringent material found in the vagina was consistent with material from the paintbrush. I believe Patsy used the pointed end of the (yet unbroken) brush to inflict the genital wound, and since the the brush was quite old, a small bit of wood detached itself during the process and was left inside the body.
    I believe that Patsy, some time later, after tying the neck knot, got the idea to break the paintbush in order to use it as stage prop for a "cruelly garroted to death by a sexual predator" scene.
    The missing paintbrush piece only make the IDI case stronger.
    I don't think it does. I believe Patsy wanted to hide that the paintbrush end was used to inflict the genital wound.
    Last edited by rashomon; 10-30-2010 at 09:11 AM.


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  25. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    (Read rashomon's post for yourself. The multiple quotes are too confusing in a re-post.)
    Very good, rashomon!


    (I do have to say though that I disagree with some of your conclusions (JMHO), but your logic is good.)
    .
    Last edited by otg; 10-30-2010 at 09:09 AM. Reason: The multiple quotes are too confusing in a re-post.


  26. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Please allow me to say this. Corporal John J. Van Tassel is truly a gentleman, and a consummate professional. I don’t think that he has anywhere stated anything about his findings other than to the BPD, and to the Grand Jury. If it has been reported by someone (I haven’t seen it) that he said anything about his findings, it is most likely third-hand and not to believed. He has not discussed or revealed, and will not discuss or reveal, anything about any ongoing criminal investigation he has been involved in until it has been resolved.
    I was Mike Kane who revelad the info that the knot expert consulted by LE (and that had to be Van Tassel) had come to the conclusion that those knots were very simple, not "sophisticated" at all.
    This blows another Ramsey myth out of the water - that it took any kind of expertise to tie them. (See also the first part of my previous post to CathyR).


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  28. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    It was Mike Kane who revelad the info that the knot expert consulted by LE (and that had to be Van Tassel) had come to the conclusion that those knots were very simple, not "sophisticated" at all.
    This blows another Ramsey myth out of the water - that it took any kind of expertise to tie them. (See also the first part of my previous post to CathyR).
    Yes, you're right. I stand corrected. Mike Kane did say that he was told that the knots were "not sophisticated" (I don't remember his exact wording.). That is though kind of a general statement about what he was told. But he did not say the name of any of the knots, and Van Tassel's report has not been released. I, for one, can't wait to read it (if I live that long).

    And yes, the simpleness of the knots goes against what was being promoted by Ramsey representatives.
    .


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