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Thread: Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by SunnieRN View Post
    Thank you very much! Would it be possible to see the original also? Thank you again.
    http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene1.html

    These are generally clearer than those on ACR.

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  3. #152
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    Please look at this site, scroll down to four hours after death and clck on number 12. This is why I am asking to see the original photo. Thanks

    http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    The stick was used as a handle. The murderer held her down with a foot on her back, and pulled up on ths stick. You can see the outline of a soft soled shoe (basketball shoe??) in the autopsy photo.
    Where? On her back? Not that I have noticed. Please post a link to that photo.
    There IS a photo out there (not on the usual sites) that I have seen that shows a large bruise on her posterior shoulder (I believe the right shoulder) that could very well be from someone standing or kneeling above her as she lay on her stomach and pressing into her shoulder with a knee or foot. I think we can all (IDI & RDI) agree that she was on her stomach when she was killed, later placed on her back in the WC.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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  7. #154
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    PMPT
    reenactment, LS & garotte, (7:31)

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOeWMSF62IM&feature=related[/ame]

    rope is double looped around neck
    and palm on shoulder is used to create tension as other hand pulls handle.
    IDI kneels as he pulls rope, is able to look at JBR's face.

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  9. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene1.html

    These are generally clearer than those on ACR.
    Photos of garotte, including cm measurement of stick
    http://www.jameson245.com/garotte.htm

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  11. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    PMPT
    reenactment, LS & garotte, (7:31)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOeWM...eature=related

    rope is double looped around neck
    and palm on shoulder is used to create tension as other hand pulls handle.
    IDI kneels as he pulls rope, is able to look at JBR's face.
    Wow, Tad! Good catch!

    I have to admit, I had to watch it a second time before I caught it. I wonder if we should consider that a second source on the "wrapped twice around her neck" comment that came from Arndt on GMA? I wonder too if it was deliberate on the part of the director. I wouldn't think that it just came to the mind of the actor to do that on his own. If it was deliberate, would they really go to that much trouble to make it accurate with information that wasn't public?

    So many questions now. What's your take on it (and thanks for pointing it out)?
    .

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  13. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Wow, Tad! Good catch!

    I have to admit, I had to watch it a second time before I caught it. I wonder if we should consider that a second source on the "wrapped twice around her neck" comment that came from Arndt on GMA? I wonder too if it was deliberate on the part of the director. I wouldn't think that it just came to the mind of the actor to do that on his own. If it was deliberate, would they really go to that much trouble to make it accurate with information that wasn't public?

    So many questions now. What's your take on it (and thanks for pointing it out)?
    .
    I'm pretty sure that was a movie, not actual footage of the investigation.

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  15. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    I'm pretty sure that was a movie, not actual footage of the investigation.
    Duh. I know it was a movie, but don't you think it the least bit odd that they would show the actor doubling the loop before putting it on? I'm simply asking the question: Why would they have the actor do what I would consider an unintuitive way of making the ligature (and, before you say it, I'm not saying there is anything intuitive about strangling someone either)?
    .

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  17. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Duh. I know it was a movie, but don't you think it the least bit odd that they would show the actor doubling the loop before putting it on? I'm simply asking the question: Why would they have the actor do what I would consider an unintuitive way of making the ligature (and, before you say it, I'm not saying there is anything intuitive about strangling someone either)?
    .
    I was just pointing out that a movie is fiction, regardless of the subject, they will do whatever they think they need to do to make it more interesting. It's a bit like people on this forum taking ST's book as truth, it is only truth as he sees it, and is likely embelished to make his point, that is he did the best he could to convict the parents and was foiled by their lawyers and the DA. Some take this as fact.

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  19. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    I'm pretty sure that was a movie, not actual footage of the investigation.

    Hi MF.

    Yes it was an excerpt of the PMPT movie, featuring Kris kristofferson as Lou Smit.
    Based on Schiller's book, Schiller as director and producer.

    LS might have instructed the double looping of the rope for that scene, to represent the 'his version' of the construction of the garotte, within the IDI scenario?

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Schiller[/ame]
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town (Producer/Director)

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  21. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    PMPT
    reenactment, LS & garotte, (7:31)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOeWM...eature=related

    rope is double looped around neck
    and palm on shoulder is used to create tension as other hand pulls handle.
    IDI kneels as he pulls rope, is able to look at JBR's face.
    Of course, I don't agree IDI, but there was a large bruise on JB's posterior right shoulder that seems like it would have been made by someone kneeling or pressing on her shoulder as they pulled the garrote. It can be seen in a rare photo that is not part of the usual "set" that is found online. I will try to find it if I can.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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  23. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Hi MF.

    Yes it was an excerpt of the PMPT movie, featuring Kris kristofferson as Lou Smit.
    Based on Schiller's book, Schiller as director and producer.

    LS might have instructed the double looping of the rope for that scene, to represent the 'his version' of the construction of the garotte, within the IDI scenario?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Schiller
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town (Producer/Director)

    Yes, everyone could have their own version of what happened, just as everyone here has their own theory(s), that doesn't make it a fact.

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  25. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Wow, Tad! Good catch!

    I have to admit, I had to watch it a second time before I caught it. I wonder if we should consider that a second source on the "wrapped twice around her neck" comment that came from Arndt on GMA? I wonder too if it was deliberate on the part of the director. I wouldn't think that it just came to the mind of the actor to do that on his own. If it was deliberate, would they really go to that much trouble to make it accurate with information that wasn't public?

    So many questions now. What's your take on it (and thanks for pointing it out)?
    .
    Heyya otg.

    I dunno, doesn't look like the rope, when double looped would slide easily over someones head, or atleast KK's big head, (the clip's editing does not show that).
    The LS character demonstrates a functional garotte.

  26. #164
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    http://www.jameson245.com/garotte.htm

    also, if the stick handle measures 12cm+ in length, and the diameter is 8-9mm,
    I wonder what number of brush was used. If the handle would break if the victim was struggling.

  27. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    Because of confusion over my meaning, I should clarify:

    I believe the stick/paintbrush was added as staging after JonBenet was already dead.

    ...

    Also, DeeDee249, I didn't mean that the strangulation occurred after death -- only the tying of the cord around the paintbrush. Obviously, as you point out, the petechiae (and possibly even Tardieu spots?) are proof that she was alive while the strangulation occurred.
    Thank you otg for clarifying on this.
    ITA with your time line which has the final wrapping of the cord around the broken paintbrush stick (for staging purposes) after JonBenet was already dead.
    For the neck knot been tied before, cutting off the last oxygen supply to JonBenet who was already in a deep coma from the head blow, nearing death.
    So we would get the time line:
    1) Head blow - resulting in an instant, near-death coma.
    2) Tying of the neck knot - resulting in asphyxiation.
    3) Wrapping of the cord arond the broken stick (as a mere stage prop).

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  29. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Heyya otg.

    I dunno, doesn't look like the rope, when double looped would slide easily over someones head, or atleast KK's big head, (the clip's editing does not show that).
    The LS character demonstrates a functional garotte.
    I haven't seen the demonstration, but I bet he left out that step where the double knot was tied around the neck first.
    (The autopsy report clearly mentions this double knot). So there was no loop pulled tight - a knot was tied instead.
    But since a tied knot plus a handle for pulling contradict each other, it is actually the tied neck knot which gives the so-called "garrote" away as a stage prop.
    For functional garrotes don't have knots. This would be downright counterpoductive.
    In addition, the "handle" was not even fashioned as a twisting device - another element which contradicts the assertion about this being a "functional garrote".
    Last edited by rashomon; 11-05-2010 at 07:05 AM.

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  31. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Toltec,
    Yes which suggests there was no bedwetting episode prior to her death, since she then voided her bladder.
    This is a very difficult point, since the bladderr is constantly being filled with urine. So suppose the bedwetting occurred about a half hour before the TOD, there would again be at least some urine collected in in the bladder at the time of death.
    If the attack followed immediately after the bedwetting episode, this would support your conclusion though.
    The problem in this case is the many variables which allow us only to speculate on certain points.

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  33. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Yes, everyone could have their own version of what happened, just as everyone here has their own theory(s), that doesn't make it a fact.
    But since every theory has to be consistent with the evidence, one can eliminate those theories which aren't.
    For example, Smit speaking about a 'sophisticted' garrote and 'complicated' knots downright contradicts the evidence.
    Now Smit based his intruder theory also on this clumsily fashioned thing he called a 'garrote', suggesting ony an criminally sophisticated expert could have made this.
    Smit's theory is based on a false premise, so to speak, and a theory based on false premises can be eliminated.
    That people, for a variety of reasons, still cling to such theories is another story. Lou Smit just could not believe the Ramseys were capable of doing this, so he "saw" what he wanted to see. So per Smit, it "had' to be an intruder because he had already psychologically ruled out the Ramseys as involved in this crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    The stick was used as a handle. The murderer held her down with a foot on her back, and pulled up on ths stick. You can see the outline of a soft soled shoe (basketball shoe??) in the autopsy photo.
    You forget the neck knot in all this. A handle in combination with a tied double neck knot makes no sense. It is as counterproductive as as if one would use a handle for tying a shoelace.

    Imo the marks on JonBenet either indicate that she had been in a physical fight before it escalated, or that her body was callously and roughly handled after she was already unconscious
    Last edited by rashomon; 11-05-2010 at 07:43 AM.

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  35. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    PMPT
    reenactment, LS & garotte, (7:31)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOeWM...eature=related

    rope is double looped around neck
    and palm on shoulder is used to create tension as other hand pulls handle.
    IDI kneels as he pulls rope, is able to look at JBR's face.
    Since the autopsy report says nothing about the cord being looped twice around the neck, it looks like this part is just anoter myth that grew legs.
    But what could lie at the origin of this? Maybe it was the second neck abrasion mark on JonBenet which the led to the conclusion a double rope had to have been around the neck?

    *** autopsy photo *** http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceright.jpg

    But it looks like those double neck marks are not that unusual in strangulation cases. At least this is info I got from reading a crime fiction book by Donna Leon (today's crime fiction authors are often very reliable sources since they take forensic science into account). In Donna Leon's story, the strangulation victim too had double neck marks, which occurred as the perp stopped halfway in his attempt to strangle, and then, to 'get the job better done', resumed, with the cord now sliding somewhat away from its first area of contact with the neck.
    Maybe this was also what happened in the JR case? Or another possbility: the Ramseys tried to use another cord first, found it to be 'unsuitable' for some reason, and then switched to the nylon cord?
    Last edited by rashomon; 11-05-2010 at 08:22 AM.

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  37. #170
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    Thanks rashomom, you made some good points.

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  39. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky319 View Post
    Thanks rashomom, you made some good points.
    Ditto, Becky
    Becky
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

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  41. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Heyya otg.

    I dunno, doesn't look like the rope, when double looped would slide easily over someones head, or atleast KK's big head, (the clip's editing does not show that).
    Exactly, Tad, exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    The LS character demonstrates a functional garotte.
    Nope, nope, nope. Sorry, Tad, but it's back to [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5721057&postcount=1"]Post #1[/ame] for you, unless what you meant to say was, "The LS character demonstrates his idiotic, delusional idea of a functional garotte."
    That is not a "functional" garrote! Back to square-1 for anyone who thinks that.
    .

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  43. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Since the autopsy report says nothing about the cord being looped twice around the neck, it looks like this part is just anoter myth that grew legs.
    But what could lie at the origin of this? Maybe it was the second neck abrasion mark on JonBenet which the led to the conclusion a double rope had to have been around the neck?

    *** autopsy photo *** http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceright.jpg

    But it looks like those double neck marks are not that unusual in strangulation cases. At least this is info I got from reading a crime fiction book by Donna Leon (today's crime fiction authors are often very reliable sources since they take forensic science into account). In Donna Leon's story, the strangulation victim too had double neck marks, which occurred as the perp stopped halfway in his attempt to strangle, and then, to 'get the job better done', resumed, with the cord now sliding somewhat away from its first area of contact with the neck.
    Maybe this was also what happened in the JR case? Or another possbility: the Ramseys tried to use another cord first, found it to be 'unsuitable' for some reason, and then switched to the nylon cord?
    Gee whiz, rashomon, I just checked in and you've really run up the score. Excellent posts. I don't think there was a thing you said in these previous posts that I could disagree with. I think you and I are on the same wavelength.

    However... (Uh-oh, here it comes) I think where the "double-wrapped" ligature thing started was from Linda Arndt saying that exact phrase on a TV show called "Good Morning America"(GMA). I saw it. It was an interview she did that was broken into a series over several days (September, 1999). When she said it, it created a big stir because it was the first mention of it. And after that, like you said, it grew legs. There has never been any other mention of it (to my knowledge).

    I was half-way being facetious earlier when I asked if we should consider the PMPT reference as a second source on the "double-wrapped" rumor. I really don't take movies as a serious source of information, but I do think it strange that that slight of a tiny detail in the movie would be put in. After finding out though that Schiller wrote, produced, and directed the movie, I'm not as surprised.

    Personally, I don't believe it was double-wrapped, but that may be one of those many things that Kane said the public was wrong about or didn't know.

    Now, about the abrasions and other marks you noted in the referenced photo... You are on to something on that subject. You are getting very close to what I think actually happened. I hope to get to all of it this weekend. (I'm sneaking in a little time on this from work right not. Shhhhhhh...)
    .

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  45. #174
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    "now"... that should've been "now", not "not"
    (Sheesh. The very last word and I screwed it up.)

  46. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    "now"... that should've been "now", not "not"
    (Sheesh. The very last word and I screwed it up.)
    Hey I read it as now! I think all of us here are fluent in typonese.

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    otg

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