What Room?

This is a hypothetical question, of course: (at least for the record ) What room was JonBenét killed in? If John was molesting her, would he do that in her bed? OR would he lure her downstairs first? She reportedly had dirty feet, but maybe she had taken her shoes off at the White's earlier, then just put her shoes and socks back on without washing them first. I believe she was murdered upstairs in her room and that most of the "finishing off" and staging occured in the basement.

7Kluz...I'm sorry to admit that every time I see your hat, I pronounce it 7 KLUTZ....tee hee! What exactly does your hat mean?

Anyhoo...I believe that JonBenet was initially assaulted in her room because a paring knife was found on the counter outside of JonBenets room and cord fibers were found on her sheet. Was the cord cut on her bed? Possibly.

Patsy was in JAR's room packing for the trip to Orlando. I believe whatever happened that night started there. Perhaps JB went into JAR's room looking for Mommy and found her packing.

JonBenet tells Patsy that she soiled herself and so Patsy takes JonBenet to her toilet. Does that explain the soiled pants found on the bathroom floor...and the red turtleneck found balled up on the bathroom counter?

Will explain the rest later...got to tend to the kids.

Sorry for what? Calling me 7klutz instead of 7kluz is a common error (and is even sometimes an accurate description ). Hee hee, so no problem here.

Actually it is pronounced "7 clues", and was just a hat that I have used since 1997 when I first began posting online after JonBenét's murder, (at least at any forum that allows a number before a letter in our "hats"). Otherwise it is a variation of that, such as: kluz7 or kluz4u or 7kluz7.

It has always annoyed me when others hide behind many "hats", so I have always chosen to use just one moniker, for the sake of integrity, in addition to the fact that I have no intention of creating havoc anywhere --so I have no need for numerous identities...lol

The intruder undoubtedly took JonBenet from her bed while she was sleeping. He did not lure her in any fashion. She is thought to have died where the urine was voided outside the room where she was found and near the paint tote.
John Ramsey was not molesting JonBenet (or anyone else).
Neither John nor Patsy Ramsey got up during the night.
Patsy Ramsey was not in the JAR/Guest room that night.

I think it happened in JB's room or her bathroom.

Thing that strikes me is that Steve Thomas thinks it happened in her bathroom, and he has seen ALL the evidence. Funny, I don't recall L$mit ever discussing where he thinks it happened. Or the Ramseys...they don't discuss where they think it happened either. Just ST. Now that is something to think about.

mortal injury when she was carried down to the basement from her room. I believe the first injury was inflicted in her bedroom or bathroom. The second injury came shortly afterward, in the basement, as part of the staging. I believe she died in the basement.

Originally posted by Watching you
mortal injury when she was carried down to the basement from her room. I believe the first injury was inflicted in her bedroom or bathroom. The second injury came shortly afterward, in the basement, as part of the staging. I believe she died in the basement.

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I agree that the initial injury occurred in her bedroom. In my opinion, the crime scene photo of JonBenet's bed paints a clear scenario. JonBenet's killer believed that a blow to the head simply renders a person unconscious, as demonstrated in such comedy movies as 1941 and Animal House and National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. In my theory, JonBenet's killer gently removed the pillow from under JonBenet's head (I believe JonBenet was sleeping on her left side/stomach, which left her head turned so that the right side of her head was up, the left side of her head being against the bed), then put it over her head with a left hand, and delivered the head blow through the pillow with a right hand. This scenario would allow for the pillow to cushion the blow enough to avoid scalp lacerations, but the pillow was also thin enough to let much of the force through without absorbing it. I believe that JonBenet's killer then lifted the pillow off JonBenet with a left hand and without thinking, put the pillow near the foot of the bed. At that point, we have exactly what the intruder theorists always want via use of a stun gun; a truly unconscious JonBenet, who will not cry out or struggle while her hair is torn from her scalp when the ligature is knotted around her neck.

I dispute whether certain neck marks are from fingernails, but let us say they were. I believe that if they are nail marks, they are from the person who tied the ligature, and represent an attempt to remove the cord, an attempt that was abandoned when the killer realized that too much bodily physical evidence was at risk of being left in the effort. After all, it would not look good the next day if, for example, Patsy's hands were examined and several broken nails were found on her hands, Why, how would an innocent mother who had done nothing more than sleep be able to explain that?

I have seen actual autopsy pictures of women who were strangled and who had fingernail gouges on their necks from trying to get the offending rope/ligature off. The marks are remarkable; IOW, there can be no doubt they were caused by fingernails. Myers wrote in his autopsy report that the marks on JB's neck were petechia. I think Myers knows the difference between fingernail gouges and petechia.

As bad as JB's neck looked in the autopsy pictures we saw, the pictures I saw were much worse. Imagine, if you can, someone slipping a slim rope around your neck and trying to strangle you - would you gently scratch your neck, or would you struggle violently in a life and death struggle, gouging the skin of your neck with your fingernails in order to slip your fingers under that ligature and pull it from your neck? I think the answer is obvious - and the pictures I saw showed longish, bloody gouges where the women had gouged the skin out of their necks trying to get the ligatures off. Their fingernails would have had bloody flesh and abundant, viable DNA available for testing - their own DNA. Contrary to what some have claimed, JBR did not have flesh under her fingernails, which certainly would have been there if she had gouged the skin on her neck.

I

Originally posted by Watching you
I have seen actual autopsy pictures of women who were strangled and who had fingernail gouges on their necks from trying to get the offending rope/ligature off. The marks are remarkable; IOW, there can be no doubt they were caused by fingernails. Myers wrote in his autopsy report that the marks on JB's neck were petechia. I think Myers knows the difference between fingernail gouges and petechia.

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I have a picture from MEDICOLEGAL INVESTIGATION OF DEATH of a woman at autopsy with nail marks on her neck, and you are correct; they are deep lacerations, not simple discolorations of the skin in small areas. Even at that, the book warns investigators not to assume that nail marks were made by the victim, since they could also be from the perpetrator.

I believe that she died in the hallway outside of the wine cellar in the basement. Where the original crime occurred, IMO, depends on which theory I believe on any given day. I would say her bedroom, her bathroom, or even in the kitchen.

Originally posted by Watching you
mortal injury when she was carried down to the basement from her room. I believe the first injury was inflicted in her bedroom or bathroom. The second injury came shortly afterward, in the basement, as part of the staging. I believe she died in the basement.

Click to expand...

I also think the first injury happened in the JB's bathroom. I believe the perpetrator thought JB to be dead, carried her to the basement then realized she was still breathing. That is when I think the strangulation and staging of the crime scene occurred.

But there was no evidence of any such event taking place in the bathroom. No blood, no brain matter, no scalp material.

Originally posted by Toth
But there was no evidence of any such event taking place in the bathroom. No blood, no brain matter, no scalp material.

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That's because (drum roll) the head wound didn't bleed externally. :bigthumb:

I think JB was moved to the basement to shelter Burke from all the "hubbub". At the point she was moved, she could have been deemed dead by the perp. Or he/she might have needed more time to work on her to try to revive her, and worried that Burke would waken and catch him/her.

Even if no external bleeding, there was still no scalp material, no hair, no impact on the scalp that matched a surface in the bathroom... and your scenario would have them calmly sitting down after all this and concocting a note full of movie phrases instead of a simple short note.

I'll finish my theory.

Patsy knows that JonBenet needs a bath because she will be getting on a small plane in the morning and doesn't want to smell urine all the way to Charlevoix. While attempting to wipe JonBenet down, she notes that someone has been fooling with JonBenet down there. John is called into the room and Patsy and John get into it. Patsy attempts to strike John with the flashlight and instead hits JonBenet. Then the cover-up starts.

That is one of umpteen theories that I have.

And Toth...you always posting statements that you believe to be facts. You must be a FOR.

Toth: Drama queens do not concoct simple short notes...they point at anyone and everyone - hysterically!!

Working on the assumption (please, God) that ST knows a lot more than I do, I bow to his inside knowledge - Bathroom, it is.

JonBenet had a scalp contusion (bruise) that was as long as the fracture. Does anyone know if a contusion appears after a person is dead?

I got an N64 that very same Christmas...and Super Mario 64 was the only game out there for this system. In the beginning of the game, Mario must fight a large Bomb which is tied with a chain around it's neck?

Dr. Werner Spitz conducted experiments on human skulls in which he struck them with various objects, including a Maglite like the one found in the Rs' house. In the experiments, the damage incurred by the Maglite looked just like the damage on JonBenet's skull. I've never forgotten seeing Spitz's demonstration on TV and how impressive it was. Ever since, I've been almost completely sure that JonBenet was struck by the Maglite. The rubber rim would have protected the skin.