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  1. #1
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    A fresh perspective?

    It's really obvious that a lot of folks are still quite certain that the Ramsey's were culpable in JB's demise.

    But, perhaps if we take a fresh look, we can also reconsider who our culprit(s) might be.

    For this purpose let's assume that the touch dna together with the original dna establishes a stranger suspect.

    If Codis is run automatically, weekly, and the dna has not come up with a match, it would seem that our perp is:

    1. Dead
    2. Never convicted of a codis offense (abt 15 years to date)

    Strangely, this murder did not seem (to me) like that of a first time offender, and thus we might expect to see other sadistic child offenses by the same perp. It also seems logical that you would expect a felony conviction of some sort over a 15 year period. Pedophiles can rarely contain themselves.

    Leaving the Ramseys out of this particular debate and based on a stranger suspect who's dead that we have speculated about, and would LE have their DNA?

    Santa
    Helgoth
    ??

    Others that have wafted in and out of discussions. Does LE have DNA on these folks?

    Fleet White
    Chris Wolf
    Gary Oliva
    The fellow with the Barbie Dolls (sorry)
    The Susan Chase incident?
    Pugh Family & Associates (daughter, friends, son-in-law, Mervin)??

    I guess the point here is that if the DNA is solid, it changes (or could refocus) our field of vision, so to speak. The killer was brazen, excessively cruel, and killed in a unique & nightmarish way.

    The home invasion of another local child within days or weeks?? LE dismissed summarily, but accurately?

  2. #2
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    LE has DNA on some of those people. They definitely have DNA from Santa. They have it from the Pugh family. I don't know as any Pugh family "associates" were named or asked for DNA. That would be a broad reach- I mean, how many people do YOU know? Keep in mind that LE does not have the right to take or even ask people for DNA samples unless they are suspects. They just can't say to the Pugh family, for example, give us a list of everyone you know so we can get DNA samples. I doubt there us a judge in the country who would grant that broad of a warrant. LE has to narrow it down much more than that.
    As frustrating as it is, when I look at the case I see much more evidence that points to the R family (this includes extended family) than it does outside the family despite the male DNA found. The reason for that is simply the male DNA itself. It is found on the clothing ONLY and no where else at the crime scene or in the house. It SHOUlD be somewhere else if that DNA is from someone who was there at the time she died. It should be on the cord, the tape, the blanket, the pink nightie, the pineapple bowl, the tea glass, etc. The window grate, the suitcase- you get the picture. Because it is ONLY on the clothes, there is the possibility for it to have come from an activity not relayed to her death. For example, it if belongs to someone who was a male CHILD who was at the party that day, and that person's skin cells were transferred to either JB herself or one of her parents, then it could have ended up on both the panties and the longjohns when either JB or her parents touched those clothes. We KNOW both parents touched them- Patsy when she admitted she dressed JB in those clothes and JR because he carried her body upstairs by holding her upright around the waist.
    ACR had lists of all those that gave DNA, hair or writing samples. Try searching that site.
    Last edited by DeeDee249; 10-28-2010 at 08:25 PM.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelmadawg View Post
    It's really obvious that a lot of folks are still quite certain that the Ramsey's were culpable in JB's demise.

    But, perhaps if we take a fresh look, we can also reconsider who our culprit(s) might be.

    For this purpose let's assume that the touch dna together with the original dna establishes a stranger suspect.

    If Codis is run automatically, weekly, and the dna has not come up with a match, it would seem that our perp is:

    1. Dead
    2. Never convicted of a codis offense (abt 15 years to date)

    Strangely, this murder did not seem (to me) like that of a first time offender, and thus we might expect to see other sadistic child offenses by the same perp. It also seems logical that you would expect a felony conviction of some sort over a 15 year period. Pedophiles can rarely contain themselves.

    Leaving the Ramseys out of this particular debate and based on a stranger suspect who's dead that we have speculated about, and would LE have their DNA?

    Santa
    Helgoth
    ??

    Others that have wafted in and out of discussions. Does LE have DNA on these folks?

    Fleet White
    Chris Wolf
    Gary Oliva
    The fellow with the Barbie Dolls (sorry)
    The Susan Chase incident?
    Pugh Family & Associates (daughter, friends, son-in-law, Mervin)??

    I guess the point here is that if the DNA is solid, it changes (or could refocus) our field of vision, so to speak. The killer was brazen, excessively cruel, and killed in a unique & nightmarish way.

    The home invasion of another local child within days or weeks?? LE dismissed summarily, but accurately?

    Except this was no average, run of the mill pedophile


    Nosy by Nature and a Websleuther by choice

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda7NJ View Post
    Except this was no average, run of the mill pedophile
    They also have DNA from Chris Wolf, according to Steve Thomas (source- JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation)

    "Even as we spoke, Chris Wolf was in an interview room voluntarily giving handwriting, hair, and DNA samples and a statement. The police cleared him."

    Sorry I don't know the page, I found it through my Kindle search (which I LOVE, can go to any book and type in any phrase) and they don't list pages.

  5. #5
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    Ok, other DNA tested:

    Source: http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/DNA-Evidence#DNATestingTimeline

    Entire Ramsey family
    Joe Barnhill Sr. and Jr.
    Jay Elowsky
    Barbara and John Fernie
    Glenn Stine
    Fleet and Priscilla White
    Linda Hoffman-Pugh and Mervin Pugh
    Gary Oliva
    John Mark Karr

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Acquaintance-Sexual-Predators#ExculpatoryEvidenceFavoringHelgoth

    Michael Helgoth (committed suicide 2 days after an announcement by Alex Hunter)

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Acquaintance%20Intruder%20Theories#RandySimons

    "Candy Cane Man"

    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-araphahoe-suspect.htm

    Mark Bechner
    Araphahoe suspects

    That's all I can find.

    With respect and assuming an intruder, it is beyond bizarre that this person committed this horrible pedophile crime and has never been found, nor has his DNA been linked to any unsolved pedophile crime cases. Pedophiles are generally reoffenders.

    It would be interesting to find a suspect where we can show the DNA was not tested. Anyone know of such a person?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    LE has DNA on some of those people. They definitely have DNA from Santa. They have it from the Pugh family. I don't know as any Pugh family "associates" were named or asked for DNA. That would be a broad reach- I mean, how many people do YOU know? Keep in mind that LE does not have the right to take or even ask people for DNA samples unless they are suspects. They just can't say to the Pugh family, for example, give us a list of everyone you know so we can get DNA samples. I doubt there us a judge in the country who would grant that broad of a warrant. LE has to narrow it down much more than that.
    As frustrating as it is, when I look at the case I see much more evidence that points to the R family (this includes extended family) than it does outside the family despite the male DNA found. The reason for that is simply the male DNA itself. It is found on the clothing ONLY and no where else at the crime scene or in the house. It SHOUlD be somewhere else if that DNA is from someone who was there at the time she died. It should be on the cord, the tape, the blanket, the pink nightie, the pineapple bowl, the tea glass, etc. The window grate, the suitcase- you get the picture. Because it is ONLY on the clothes, there is the possibility for it to have come from an activity not relayed to her death. For example, it if belongs to someone who was a male CHILD who was at the party that day, and that person's skin cells were transferred to either JB herself or one of her parents, then it could have ended up on both the panties and the longjohns when either JB or her parents touched those clothes. We KNOW both parents touched them- Patsy when she admitted she dressed JB in those clothes and JR because he carried her body upstairs by holding her upright around the waist.
    ACR had lists of all those that gave DNA, hair or writing samples. Try searching that site.
    Totally agree about the associate statement, rather reflected a private thought of mine.

    But . . . the fact remains there is still male dna both on the panties and longjohns, and if I recall the most recent in a total of 3 different areas, not all mentioned.

    I did check ACR for a few of the folks, but most had fingerprints, but not dna listed. However, it appears the adult Pughs were tested. Other members of the family, however, were in the basement removing the Xmas decorations, trees, etc.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tragco View Post
    Ok, other DNA tested:

    Source: http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/DNA-Evidence#DNATestingTimeline

    Entire Ramsey family
    Joe Barnhill Sr. and Jr.
    Jay Elowsky
    Barbara and John Fernie
    Glenn Stine
    Fleet and Priscilla White
    Linda Hoffman-Pugh and Mervin Pugh
    Gary Oliva
    John Mark Karr

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Acquaintance-Sexual-Predators#ExculpatoryEvidenceFavoringHelgoth

    Michael Helgoth (committed suicide 2 days after an announcement by Alex Hunter)

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Acquaintance%20Intruder%20Theories#RandySimons

    "Candy Cane Man"

    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-araphahoe-suspect.htm

    Mark Bechner
    Araphahoe suspects

    That's all I can find.

    With respect and assuming an intruder, it is beyond bizarre that this person committed this horrible pedophile crime and has never been found, nor has his DNA been linked to any unsolved pedophile crime cases. Pedophiles are generally reoffenders.

    It would be interesting to find a suspect where we can show the DNA was not tested. Anyone know of such a person?
    Exactly where I was trying to go with this, but I'm not sure there is enough public information to ascertain this.

    I always felt the home invasion "guy" was a missed oportunity in a grand way - perhaps because of the fixation on the R's. The young girls association with JB, the conversation, all struck me as way too coincidental. They even had a fairly decent description of the man. Too bad a forensic drawing wasn't made, a public request for more info, and on and on.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelmadawg View Post
    Exactly where I was trying to go with this, but I'm not sure there is enough public information to ascertain this.

    I always felt the home invasion "guy" was a missed oportunity in a grand way - perhaps because of the fixation on the R's. The young girls association with JB, the conversation, all struck me as way too coincidental. They even had a fairly decent description of the man. Too bad a forensic drawing wasn't made, a public request for more info, and on and on.
    Now who is the home invasion guy? Are you talking about the man who came into the home of "Amy" who was trained at the same dance studio that JonBenet was, or someone else? If you have a link where I can read about it that would be great, TIA.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tragco View Post
    Now who is the home invasion guy? Are you talking about the man who came into the home of "Amy" who was trained at the same dance studio that JonBenet was, or someone else? If you have a link where I can read about it that would be great, TIA.
    Finally found this info on ACR:

    "It occurred in an affluent area of Boulder, near the Ramsey home just nine months after the killing of JonBenét. A mother and her 12 year old daughter returned to their home here after a visit to the cinema. The girl attended the same dance studio in Boulder as JonBenét. The Dance West Studio is now derelict and about to be pulled down, but detectives think that the fact that the girl danced here might explain what happened that night.

    Her father was away on business. When the girl and her mother returned home, they were alone. They are still too upset to talk publicly about what happened next. There was an intruder in their home. The father is anxious to protect the family’s identity.

    Father of Victim: My feeling is, he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house.

    Narrator: After turning on the burglar alarm, the mother went to bed. Sometime later, the intruder crept into the girl’s bedroom. He put his hand over her mouth. He used her name, and told her he knew her. He began a sexual assault and a possible abduction. But the mother close by was a light sleeper.

    Father of victim: My wife heard whispering. She got up, asked if everything was OK. She got a non-committal reply, thought there might be someone moving around. She took a can of mace and walked into the other bedroom and that’s when she saw a man there, he ran past her and ran out a bedroom window where he had to jump off the roof.

    The detectives now hunting JonBenét’s killer are shocked that the lead was ignored.

    John San Augustine: The fact that Boulder PD ignored information was just absolutely ludicrous. Why are you not taking this information and seeing if it is related to the Ramsey case? You have an obligation as a Law Enforcement Agency to take these facts and either eliminate it or say “Guess what? It is part of the Ramsey homicide”.

    . . .http://acandyrose.com/michaeltracy.htm


    I could be wrong,but I don't think BPD ever considered connecting this to the JBR case, nor do I think this person was ever identified, though a police sketch would have been really helpful!.

    Hopefully new efforts will go back to the files and methodically narrow those who may have been missed, those who had DNA sampled, and those who didn't who might have some connection. An innocent would likely be happy to provide dna.

  10. #10
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    Yes, the BPD did compare the "home invastion" crime to the Ramsey crime. Beckner was asked and he said they were not related. Of course Team Ramsey jumped all over it, repeating that again the BPD was ignoring leads because they're just evil and would rather have a child killer running around attacking children while they try to convict the "innocent" Ramseys.

    IMO that's just another excuse to blame the BPD for the elephant in the Team Ramsey room: where is that old experienced, clever, driven sexual sadist and his DNA, who murdered JonBenet? Susannah Chase's murderer has been found, by DNA, no less, and he's not the guy in the Ramsey murder, unless you're going to argue he brought some of his small foreign faction with him--and yeah, heard that one, too.

    As for the "list": I believe everyone on it, except as was said, the general population of Boulder, had his and in some cases her DNA tested and compared. No hit.

    The thing about that DNA is that you have to believe there was an intruder who actually was so unknown to the Ramseys and any of their family, friends, and associates, that no one ever thought of him; yet he knows enough about the Ramseys to sit comfortably in her house, with her pad and pen, to write and speak like Patsy in a ransom note he practiced until he got it right, having collected and included inner circle family info, jokes, and lingo.

    Also you must believe either he was able to move about the home undetected while they were there, after they returned from the Whites' party, with this intruder taking the time to write the ransom note over and over without much concern of being detected; or he wrote the ransom note before they came home, yet did not leave a crease or dent or a fiber or a print or DNA on it, while he was hiding under a bed or in a closet or the basement/wherever for an hour and a half. Maybe this was when he circled those Bible passages in John's Bible in the master suite on the top floor, not to mention, a photo of John in a newspaper article. All those tiny clues he so carefully thought out and left.

    More to believe: Without a peep from her, he also spent a lot of time with JonBenet, feeding her pineapple, molesting and killing her, wiping her down, redressing her, staging the body with duct tape and wrist bindings while three people slept in the home; wiping down the flashlight and/or throwing the softball bat on the backside of the house; loudly clanging and/or scraping concrete as he entered/exited/whichever the amazingly convenient already broken and never repaired small basement window through which he dragged himself, yet left no clothing fibers behind--something Lou Smit couldn't claim about himself, I'd venture; bringing a bat, large coil of rope, cord, and duct tape, and gloves, taking common items used in the crime from the home and leaving the bat, coil of rope, and non-ransom note behind; taking the duvet out of the suitcase where he got fibers on her outer clothes--if Smit was telling the truth about that and who knows, then replacing the duvet and placing the suitcase under the window to climb out; some or all done before and/or after writing and placing the ransom note on the spiral stairs--and why would he put it there and take her to the basement and hang around murdering her, because three people upstairs meant someone might have woken up and come down for a glass of water, so did he put it there after the murder, then go back down to the basement and climb out the window on a suitcase, instead of the convenient chair nearby? Instead of just walking out one of the many unlocked doors-- according to a later version of the Ramseys' stories? Right. All while the lucky devil happened to pick a child who had vaginal injuries from some "other" source before he ever set foot in the house that night?

    Shall I go on? The man practically lived there, and he left a few skin cells and nothing more?

    Sorry, I can't play this game, because nothing about the crime scene implies an intruder was there doing all these things while the family slept upstairs. It just doesn't make sense. A few strands of unidentified DNA in sub-particle evidence do not change that for me.
    Last edited by KoldKase; 10-29-2010 at 04:57 PM.
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  11. #11
    Patsy's DNA could be explained away...she undressed and redressed JonBenet.

    I mean, the DNA from the cord, blanket, and duct tape are the most important IMO.

    This murder makes no sense, period. Does not look premeditated so it must have been an accident. Patsy loved JonBenet, she was her pride and joy.

    Christmas week was a very stressful time for Patsy. The party on the 23d, last minute shopping, gift wrapping, packing for Charlevoix, Big Red Boat, and the Hawaian Tropic Pageant.

    Whatever scenario caused Patsy to snap, she did something she immediately regretted...she hurt her daughter. The reason for staging is simple...self-preservation.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    Patsy's DNA could be explained away...she undressed and redressed JonBenet.

    I mean, the DNA from the cord, blanket, and duct tape are the most important IMO.

    .
    Yes, they are. And yet those items (cord, blanket, duct tape) are items that do NOT contain the male DNA, or ANY evidence aside from the parent(s) fibers.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoldKase View Post
    Yes, the BPD did compare the "home invastion" crime to the Ramsey crime. Beckner was asked and he said they were not related. Of course Team Ramsey jumped all over it, repeating that again the BPD was ignoring leads because they're just evil and would rather have a child killer running around attacking children while they try to convict the "innocent" Ramseys.

    IMO that's just another excuse to blame the BPD for the elephant in the Team Ramsey room: where is that old experienced, clever, driven sexual sadist and his DNA, who murdered JonBenet? Susannah Chase's murderer has been found, by DNA, no less, and he's not the guy in the Ramsey murder, unless you're going to argue he brought some of his small foreign faction with him--and yeah, heard that one, too.

    As for the "list": I believe everyone on it, except as was said, the general population of Boulder, had his and in some cases her DNA tested and compared. No hit.

    The thing about that DNA is that you have to believe there was an intruder who actually was so unknown to the Ramseys and any of their family, friends, and associates, that no one ever thought of him; yet he knows enough about the Ramseys to sit comfortably in her house, with her pad and pen, to write and speak like Patsy in a ransom note he practiced until he got it right, having collected and included inner circle family info, jokes, and lingo.

    Also you must believe either he was able to move about the home undetected while they were there, after they returned from the Whites' party, with this intruder taking the time to write the ransom note over and over without much concern of being detected; or he wrote the ransom note before they came home, yet did not leave a crease or dent or a fiber or a print or DNA on it, while he was hiding under a bed or in a closet or the basement/wherever for an hour and a half. Maybe this was when he circled those Bible passages in John's Bible in the master suite on the top floor, not to mention, a photo of John in a newspaper article. All those tiny clues he so carefully thought out and left.

    More to believe: Without a peep from her, he also spent a lot of time with JonBenet, feeding her pineapple, molesting and killing her, wiping her down, redressing her, staging the body with duct tape and wrist bindings while three people slept in the home; wiping down the flashlight and/or throwing the softball bat on the backside of the house; loudly clanging and/or scraping concrete as he entered/exited/whichever the amazingly convenient already broken and never repaired small basement window through which he dragged himself, yet left no clothing fibers behind--something Lou Smit couldn't claim about himself, I'd venture; bringing a bat, large coil of rope, cord, and duct tape, and gloves, taking common items used in the crime from the home and leaving the bat, coil of rope, and non-ransom note behind; taking the duvet out of the suitcase where he got fibers on her outer clothes--if Smit was telling the truth about that and who knows, then replacing the duvet and placing the suitcase under the window to climb out; some or all done before and/or after writing and placing the ransom note on the spiral stairs--and why would he put it there and take her to the basement and hang around murdering her, because three people upstairs meant someone might have woken up and come down for a glass of water, so did he put it there after the murder, then go back down to the basement and climb out the window on a suitcase, instead of the convenient chair nearby? Instead of just walking out one of the many unlocked doors-- according to a later version of the Ramseys' stories? Right. All while the lucky devil happened to pick a child who had vaginal injuries from some "other" source before he ever set foot in the house that night?

    Shall I go on? The man practically lived there, and he left a few skin cells and nothing more?

    Sorry, I can't play this game, because nothing about the crime scene implies an intruder was there doing all these things while the family slept upstairs. It just doesn't make sense. A few strands of unidentified DNA in sub-particle evidence do not change that for me.
    I agree with what you are saying.
    That's why I always thought that if IDI it was someone known.But if so,he would have been caught by now IMO,AND the Ramsey's would have been all over their friends to find out who it is.Didn't happen.
    I was also thinking that if IDI maybe someone who attended the White's party started to play a little game with JB ,didn't finish it and went over and waiting for the parents to go to sleep(what Wecht said,that the chronic injuries could be dated 72 hours ago).But IIRC everybody on the guest list was checked,no?
    I don't like how JR is always so excited about the killer leaving all those little clues.This makes me wonder whether this crime was really about an accident (if RDI).My gut feeling and everything else tells me it was not an accident,the weird silly childish ransom note,the sick staging,the body being redressed,digital penetration,everything.

    What the experts say re chronic abuse makes me believe it happened before,BUT it was a new game,maybe iut started days ago?People keep saying there was no history of abuse re the Ramsey's.Didn't need to be one if this game started only a few days before the murder.
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

  14. #14
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    Well that 911 call on the 23rd always P*sses me off! Why the fluck did the officers not enter the house? Did they ever find out who made that call and why? Does it have anything to do with anything??

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelmadawg View Post
    Finally found this info on ACR:

    "It occurred in an affluent area of Boulder, near the Ramsey home just nine months after the killing of JonBenét. A mother and her 12 year old daughter returned to their home here after a visit to the cinema. The girl attended the same dance studio in Boulder as JonBenét. The Dance West Studio is now derelict and about to be pulled down, but detectives think that the fact that the girl danced here might explain what happened that night.

    Her father was away on business. When the girl and her mother returned home, they were alone. They are still too upset to talk publicly about what happened next. There was an intruder in their home. The father is anxious to protect the family’s identity.

    Father of Victim: My feeling is, he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house.

    Narrator: After turning on the burglar alarm, the mother went to bed. Sometime later, the intruder crept into the girl’s bedroom. He put his hand over her mouth. He used her name, and told her he knew her. He began a sexual assault and a possible abduction. But the mother close by was a light sleeper.

    Father of victim: My wife heard whispering. She got up, asked if everything was OK. She got a non-committal reply, thought there might be someone moving around. She took a can of mace and walked into the other bedroom and that’s when she saw a man there, he ran past her and ran out a bedroom window where he had to jump off the roof.
    The detectives now hunting JonBenét’s killer are shocked that the lead was ignored.

    John San Augustine: The fact that Boulder PD ignored information was just absolutely ludicrous. Why are you not taking this information and seeing if it is related to the Ramsey case? You have an obligation as a Law Enforcement Agency to take these facts and either eliminate it or say “Guess what? It is part of the Ramsey homicide”.

    . . .http://acandyrose.com/michaeltracy.htm

    I could be wrong,but I don't think BPD ever considered connecting this to the JBR case, nor do I think this person was ever identified, though a police sketch would have been really helpful!.

    Hopefully new efforts will go back to the files and methodically narrow those who may have been missed, those who had DNA sampled, and those who didn't who might have some connection. An innocent would likely be happy to provide dna.
    I've said this before, but it bears repeating here. If this was the same person who killed JonBenet, he got a lot more stupid in the interim. Think about it, he supposedly spent hours in the Ramsey home and never made a peep or left one bit of evidence (not counting the dna), then the next time he tries to pull off the same crime, he is caught red handed in the middle of it! In a normal turn of events, the criminal gets smarter as he goes, this one would have gotten dumber.
    I have to believe there was enough dna left at this scene to compare to the dna found on JB. I also don't believe LE is going to give us an update every time they check dna that is not a match. After all, the old adage "no news is good news" doesn't work here anymore. The public wants news but we want relevant news, not news about a suspect who is not a suspect after all. I am hoping that Stan Garnett is smart enough to keep every thing he is investigating close to the vest so that the RST won't be able to come up with "counter evidence" to convince the public there is nothing new to point to the Ramseys. If the intruder did it, let's hope Mr. Garnett can prove it, if not, let the chips fall where they may!
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

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