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  1. #1
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    Was JonBenet Posed?

    Dr. Henry Lee's comment in his book that JonBenet had been posed, and John Walsh's comment that John Ramsey "cut her down", brings up the question of what JonBenet's body truthfully looked like when it was first discovered.

    Conventional thinking, based on John Ramsey's version of events, has JonBenet lying on her back in the wine cellar, hands reaching over her head, with a white nylon cord ligature deeply imbedded in the skin of her neck and a separate white nylon cord binding her wrists together. She was fully clothed with a long-sleeved white shirt she had worn to the White's dinner party on Christmas Day, oversized size 12 white panties, and white longjohn underwear.

    But is that really how she appeared after the killer(s) were finished with her?

    There is evidence that suggests JonBenet had been grotesquely posed and John Ramsey, perhaps in an attempt to provide his daughter a measure of dignity in death after finding her, did indeed cut her down and repose the body in a more decent position long before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 that morning.

    Here's how coroner John Meyer described the white cords in his autopsy report:

    "Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlapping the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed".

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    "Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being around the right wrist. This ligature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed. A single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the cut. The posterior knot is left intact. Extending from the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck are two tails of the cord, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a length of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length. This wooden stick is irregularly broken at both ends and there are several colors of paint and apparent glistening varnish on the surface. Printed in gold letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word "Korea"... Blonde hair is entwined in the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck as well as the cord wrapped around the wooden stick...".

    There is a good possibility the white nylon cord on the wrists and the separate white nylon cord around the neck had been one single length of cord when JonBenet was first found. It appears the 15.5-inch length of tail with a frayed end attached to the wrists had been joined to the 4-inch length of tail with a frayed end attached to the neck ligature. The once 19.5-inch length had been cut. The 19.5-inch length equals the measurement between JonBenet's neck and the wrists of her hands held over her head.

    The 17-inch length of the white cord between the ligature on JonBenet's neck and the wooden stick equals the measurement between her neck and her vagina. Birefringent foreign material, apparently from the stick, was found in JonBenet's vagina.

    Therefore, the possibility exists, supported by measurements of the white cords on her body, that JonBenet had been grotesquely posed, probably in a leaning position, by her killer(s) and John Ramsey found her and cut her down.

    JMO

  2. #2
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    I don't believe for a minute that she was posed. Her arms were over her head because that is the position her body was left in after it was dragged by the panicky killer (imo, Burke) to hide it. By the time John and Patsy saw the body (or decided what to do with it), the body was in rigor.

    imo

  3. #3
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    This is such and important piece to the crime and crime scene. I agree with that Bluecrab. Just how to diagnose it is difficult. What was the original condition and placement of the body and what did the stager do post-death?

    I have often wondered about John Walsh's comment that John Ramsey "cut her down." The problem with the theory that she was somehow "hanging" is that the evidence around her neck does not support this. The neck furrow showed the cord didn't really move up or down on her but stayed pretty stationery.

    But I think the possibility that the cord was at one time ONE PIECE on JonBenet (neck cord connected to the wrist cord) - makes sense with her arms up over her head position that she assumedly died in. Or was posed in shortly after death. It is hard to say.
    And then this would beg the question: Just WHEN was that cord then cut/frayed and the loop taken off her left wrist?? Was it done when John Ramsey was down in that basement for an hour? An hour would certainly indicate a "task" being attended to. Hardly would one think he went down to that cluttered, messy part of his house to meditate.

    I just had a curious thought. 'What if' when John Ramsey went down into that basement, he did discover his daughter tied up and dead - and there was ANOTHER note perhaps on or near her body down there? Maybe an, "I'm so sorry mom and dad!" type of note? Or, "please forgive me!" type of note. If so, he would have of course crumpled it up and hid it in his pocket because the stark and shocking realization had now been thrust upon him that this was no "foreign faction" but some horrible accident that had happened by his own family during the night.
    Perhaps he then proceeded to place JonBenet in a more dignified position (not only placed ON a blanket on that dirty floor but one placed over her as well),
    then he went back upstairs where he was observed to be visibly more shaken and downing a large vodka I believe. Pondering how things would now unfold.
    To his sheer luck - Det. Arndt ASKED HIM to go "search" the house.
    He made a bee-line for that room and the rest is known history.

    Although perhaps her body would show physical evidence of "being moved" after death had he done that. Not sure how all that works. I don't believe the coroner noted that having been the case so maybe John did not move her at all.
    Such a mystery is this part of the case.
    This post is my opinion.

  4. #4
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    Blue Crab, where are the measurements given for the distance between JonBenet's neck and her hands and her privates? I would like to know if those are exact measurements you are quoting or if you are assuming based on the lengths of the cords.

    Livor mortis (pooling of blood due to gravity) suggests that she was on her back in exactly the position in which she was found as does the rigor mortis. Unless she was found immediately after death before livor mortis and rigor mortis set in (I am afraid I forget the exact timing of these events, but it is less than a few hours) and moved at this time, I don't believe she was posed in any other way.

    Now, she may have been in another position when she died and her body was dragged, possibly by the arms into the "wine cellar" of the basement. I tend to think this may be the case. The rope around her wrists, was, IMO part of staging only since it was so loosely tied and was on top of the shirt sleeves. Either that, or it was meant as part of some sort of game and not as an actual restraint and it was placed on top of the shirt loosely to prevent rope burn on the wrists. Whether this was an innocent child's game of some sort or a sadistic sexual game, I have no idea. She did not, IMO, struggle against the bindings on her wrists at any time or there would have been some marking on her wrists. Also, it would appear that if she were concious when the wrist restraints were applied, her hands were tied in front of her with a significant distance between them and she would have had quite a range of motion with her arms. The other possibility is that the rope was looped over something else, above her head or in front of her and that is why there was such a length to the rope.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle
    Blue Crab, where are the measurements given for the distance between JonBenet's neck and her hands and her privates? I would like to know if those are exact measurements you are quoting or if you are assuming based on the lengths of the cords.

    Arielle.

    My measurements are estimates, of course, because body torso and arm lengths vary, but they are based from the measurements of my granddaughter, who is seven years old and 49 inches tall. JonBenet was 47 inches tall.

    JMO

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle
    The rope around her wrists, was, IMO part of staging only since it was so loosely tied and was on top of the shirt sleeves.

    Arielle,

    The coroner, in his autopsy report, does indeed state the rope around the right wrist was loosely tied. But the coroner didn't see the bindings on the wrists when the body was found by John. The coroner is reporting only what he sees at the morgue. His report could be grossly misleading since the rope on the left wrist had been undone by John when he "discovered" the body in the wine cellar. The wrists at one time had been bound together. Once one wrist had been freed, it could have spontaneously allowed the double loop on the right wrist to loosen.

    JMO

  7. #7
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    It is my understanding that there was 15" between the loops of the wrist ligatures, correct me if I'm wrong.

    Picture this; if the neck ligature is pulled straight up behind the head the paint brush handle comes very close to the same point where the wrist ligature would bend if 15" long between the loops. If one end of the paint brush handle was placed in a hole, the other end would stick out enough for the wrist ligature to be wrapped around it.

    The arms were STRAIGHT above the head. If she was unconscious and not restrained the arms would tend to bend at the elbows. Since they were straight, odds are the arms were pulled that way by the ligatures until rigor.

    There was a slight upward deviation of the neck ligature at the back of the neck. She could have been posed laying at an angle, the arms held straight by being attached to the neck ligature handle.

    The shard of brush handle could have been transfered to the vagina via a finger after the hands fashioned the ligature handle. As far as I know there is no mention of whether or not the handle was tested for vaginal fluid.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherMoon

    The arms were STRAIGHT above the head. If she was unconscious and not restrained the arms would tend to bend at the elbows. Since they were straight, odds are the arms were pulled that way by the ligatures until rigor.

    Brothermoon,

    Exactly. You are on target about the likely reason for the straightness of the arms.

    IMO JonBenet could indeed have been "strung up", but not to the extent of a bonifide hanging. It would have been a partial hanging, so to speak, from the waist upward.

    If JonBenet had been indecently posed it would have probably been in a propped up sitting position in a chair or in a propped up leaning position on the floor, with legs apart. The propped up position would have been maintained by the wrist ligatures attached to an object at an elevation higher than the raised hands, thus tending to straighten the arms due to the upper body weight of JonBenet.

    In this scenario, even though she was likely cut down by John just an hour or two after the murder, enough rigor had set in to keep the arms in that raised position.

    JMO

  9. #9
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    Just a comment on the 'cord' used. Everything used in the crime was an object of opportunity for the perp/stager. Paper, pen, paint brush handle and I firmly believe the cord and tape also. I think they were handy somewhere lying around down in that cluttered basement. Didn't have to come from a tidy 'spool' or 'roll.' In fact, I find it curious that in the search warrant one of the items that was listed as taken was "string from a sled." Was that same 'string' really what another calls 'cord?" That 'string' may have been lying around down there after having been bought for the sled. Afterall - it WAS December and there was SNOW. I think Patsy bought that 'cord' or 'string' - as the officer who wrote the s.w. referred to it as - for that sled that December.
    I think the tape was on something down there in the basement as well. (Or the rest of the roll was simply shoved in a pocket of one of the Ramseys that early morning.) It's not like they were searched and frisked afterall!

    BTW - I've heard John Ramsey talk about "trying" to get the knot undone on the cord on JonBenet's wrist, but I've never heard him say that he was able to get one of them off! Yet the one on the left wrist WAS not on.
    So was it ever on and if it was - WHO took it off? And why was the other one left on?
    This post is my opinion.

  10. #10
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    I have never discounted John Walsh's statement because I do believe that he had some inside knowledge. That is a good post, BrotherMoon, about the arms, and I have thought that myself. Arielle also makes valid points regarding the livor mortis, et al.

    So...IF JR did repose JB...why? Would it simply be due to the embarrassment of the BPD finding his baby posed in an indecent manner, or would it be so Patsy would not have to view that scene? I guess if it were for those reasons, he could not admit that to the authorities, because that would make his behavior even more suspicious to them?

    BlueCrab, I know what your response will be in regards to who did this and what was going on...but why would young boys leave JB in such a pose? Seems to me that they would get scared and run off.

    Think about what would motivate JR to "cut her down" and then redo the crime scene, if that truly occurred.

    IMO


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah

    BlueCrab, I know what your response will be in regards to who did this and what was going on...but why would young boys leave JB in such a pose? Seems to me that they would get scared and run off.

    Nehemiah,

    The boys were not average 10-year-olds. They were mature, highly intelligent and IMO able to carry out crime scene staging with the ability of many adults. Their intent was to make the killing look like the work of foreign terrorists. Trouble is, they overdid it, and that's one reason I suspected them. The behaviors of the respective parents in the coverup clinched it for me. The boys did it.

    JMO

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    Nehemiah,

    The boys were not average 10-year-olds. They were mature, highly intelligent and IMO able to carry out crime scene staging with the ability of many adults. Their intent was to make the killing look like the work of foreign terrorists. Trouble is, they overdid it, and that's one reason I suspected them. The behaviors of the respective parents in the coverup clinched it for me. The boys did it.

    JMO
    I completely disagree. I do not think the staging was something barely ten yr olds could do or did. The note alone proves that. Ten yr old boys do not use words and phrases like "attache' " "and hence" "gentlemen" "fat cats" "good southern common sense". But Patsy does.

    The sheer length of the note rules out ten yr old boys as well. They would have neither the patience nor the mindset to write out a lenghty LETTER.
    This again though IS something that is very Patsy. Overdone. Dramatic. As Dr. Lee put it: "theatrical." Protesting too much.... panicked, frantic, obsessed with diverting attention away from their family. It took THREE pages to satisfy her as having "diverted enough."

    I think Burke whacked his sister in a rage on the head, his mother discovered it staged an elaborate scene to hide the truth.
    Since the molestation may have been done post-mortem as part of the staging and thus indicates the molestation was done basically LAST by any account - I think maybe that molestation was not the trigger afterall but part of the staging. I suppose it is still possible - but the lack of white blood cells rushing to the injured site inside her indicates that she was either dead or very near death at the time she was violated.

    I don't think Doug Stine had anything to do with this homicide.
    I think it was totally 'familial'. It has all the earmarks of it and no evidence of anything but.
    This post is my opinion.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah
    I have never discounted John Walsh's statement because I do believe that he had some inside knowledge. That is a good post, BrotherMoon, about the arms, and I have thought that myself. Arielle also makes valid points regarding the livor mortis, et al.

    So...IF JR did repose JB...why? Would it simply be due to the embarrassment of the BPD finding his baby posed in an indecent manner, or would it be so Patsy would not have to view that scene? I guess if it were for those reasons, he could not admit that to the authorities, because that would make his behavior even more suspicious to them?

    BlueCrab, I know what your response will be in regards to who did this and what was going on...but why would young boys leave JB in such a pose? Seems to me that they would get scared and run off.

    Think about what would motivate JR to "cut her down" and then redo the crime scene, if that truly occurred.

    IMO
    The report on the liver mortis doesn't say if there was any indication of angle of the body, too bad.

    The evidence and anecdotes point to John finding the body already in rigor, already posed at death, hung-up or not. So I conclude the final position was as described. It makes no sense for John to pose the body for discovery by police and then find it himself, remove the tape and move the body thus destrying some aspects of what he supposedly wanted the police to find.

    It also makes no sense for Patsy to have posed the body for discovery by police and then make no effort to lead them in that direction. If the posing and decoration of the body was that important, then so would the discovery by police be.

    Sorry, but I discount Burke's involvement.

    What I don't get is; if the arms were held in place until rigor by the cords, when was the body wrapped in the blanket? Also, the tape on the mouth, why? That really looks like staging for police.

    Also, very little of the things done to the body have anything to do with sex. The note does not refer to sex. There is a direct connection between the concept of ransom and the concept of sacrifice in the Judeo/Christain tradition. I think there is more cause to follow a LINE OF THINKING in sleuthing this case than to follow sexual impulse.

  14. #14
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    Burke was not quite 10, can we call him 9? There is little in Patsy's letters to indicate he was a shining star or any more than just an average kid. There is no indication that Archelata was planning on flying anyone other than the Ramseys or that there was another ticket purchased for the "Big Red Boat" trip. There is absolutely no indication that another child was in that house . Patsy was a social person, a communicator, someone would have known if Doug was ,indeed, going to be a guest on this trip.

    Doesn't this posing notion shoot holes in the parents involvement? What parent wouldn't put their child in a restful ,hands folded, tucked in , comfortable position?
    Posing is something found often in these crimes, and the criminals that pose their victims have behaviors that are outlined in the books (serial killer types). Burke Ramsey would have been latched onto by his parents ,given time to be talked into a story, etc. not sent away with Fleet. Unless ,of course , ya want to claim it was Fleet's child involved.

    If for example,as some suggest, Burke was found responsible by the grand jury, his age prevented prosecution,end of story,case is closed, would then a new DA take over a case, would Boulder spend money furthering the investigation pretending it wasn't him? Lord, how far reaching would a conspiracy be to protect a child killer?
    They would close the case, keep mum, there would be no monies spent to "pretend" to pursue it. New dna testing wouldn't have occurred (btw it was outside the time of Lee's involvement), the dna wouldn't have been placed in the FBI codis bank, Carnes couldn't lie and suggest current information suggests an intruder, and on...and on.

    Clearly, IMO, the Ramseys have no idea who killed their child, they just do not know!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by K777angel
    I completely disagree. I do not think the staging was something barely ten yr olds could do or did. The note alone proves that. Ten yr old boys do not use words and phrases like "attache' " "and hence" "gentlemen" "fat cats" "good southern common sense". But Patsy does.

    The sheer length of the note rules out ten yr old boys as well. They would have neither the patience nor the mindset to write out a lenghty LETTER.
    This again though IS something that is very Patsy. Overdone. Dramatic. As Dr. Lee put it: "theatrical." Protesting too much.... panicked, frantic, obsessed with diverting attention away from their family. It took THREE pages to satisfy her as having "diverted enough."

    I think Burke whacked his sister in a rage on the head, his mother discovered it staged an elaborate scene to hide the truth.


    Angel,

    I interpret the ransom note just the opposite as you do. The immature text alone indicates to me the melodramatic note was likely written by juveniles.

    For instance, it borrows phrases from action movies; it's full of unnecessary threats; it is unnecessarily wordy; and the $118,000 ransom amount is just plain silly. The note to me reads like it was written by a juvenile male of around 14 years old, or a very intelligent 10-year-old.

    The CBI's handwriting experts say John didn't write it and Patsy didn't likely write it. The CBI won't release the results of Burke's handwriting examination. Why? My guess is that if Burke's handwriting examination results were made public it would shock America.

    JMO

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