View Poll Results: Did Patsy write the ransom note?

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  • Yes, Patsy wrote the note

    289 91.17%
  • No, Patsy did not write the note

    28 8.83%
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  1. #76
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    Interesting doesn't equate to correct....take the Bible for example


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  3. #77
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    Count the a's and a's yourself (and this was written while she knew she was being looked at):



    (To view images larger in Firefox: right-click, click "view image", then hit "Control +" repeatedly.)
    .


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  5. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Just remind me again. Wasn't ST successfully sued by the Rs??
    Go here:

    http://www.forstevethomas.com/index.htm

    Read this:


    A Letter From Steve Thomas

    The frivolous lawsuit filed by the Ramseys has concluded.

    I am sorry for the delay in making a public statement until now, but the Ramsey announcement of a resolution in March was premature.

    I am bound by the terms of the settlement not to discuss its conclusive points but I can tell you this: it was a thoughtful, deliberate decision. For the record, I was not the one who sought out a settlement in this case.

    My absolute requirement for any resolution was the mandate that I would admit no wrongdoing whatsoever, nor would I personally pay a single dollar in settlement. And that is exactly what was achieved with this resolution. In fact, the book can continue to be published, advertised, quoted, and marketed. I will continue to speak on the case whenever I wish. I continue to stand resolutely by my book and the opinions I expressed in it. My beliefs have not changed.

    The reality was this: I was well within my Constitutional rights to have stated my opinion regarding the events surrounding this murder. But this was a civil case. It was about money. Justice and "doing the right thing" do not always prevail in these cases, as we all know.

    On the other hand, we would have enjoyed deposing and taking people in front of a jury, and discovering the truth. Unfortunately, financial constraints continued to prohibit this, as I was in no position to take on the Ramseys' wealth. In fact, I lost my house and savings during this struggle.

    After almost 6 years, I can now look forward to a much brighter future. I continue to receive a warm welcome and tremendous support from police around the country. Although I miss police work, and have had invitations to re-join law enforcement, I have respectfully declined. I am taking my life in a new direction and am enjoying it with people I care about.

    Again, I want to reiterate that I personally paid not one red cent, not one thin dime, not one single dollar to settle this suit. I tried to the very end to take a principled position in this tragic case, and I believe I have done so.

    The future still holds hope that true justice for the murderer of an innocent girl will prevail. As I mentioned Proverbs 28:13 on Larry King Live, I still believe -- "without confession there is no forgiveness".

    Please know how forever grateful I am to you for supporting me throughout this ordeal. I can tell you that there are no finer men than Daniel Petrocelli and Chuck Diamond, who supported me unequivocally. Perhaps this knowledge and explanation is some small consolation for your support and dedication in helping me with this fight.

    Prior to my resignation in 1998, a man whom I admire greatly shared a famous quote with me: "It is a sin to remain silent, when it's your duty to protest."

    Steve Thomas
    6 August 2002
    ___________________

    "This Time We Get It Right!"
    If you can read this, thank a teacher, if it's in English, thank a soldier!
    If I forget to mention it. Everything I post is my opinion, right or wrong, good or bad.
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  7. #79
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    belimom is offline Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter ~MLK Jr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Write another shorter note? There wasn't time for that....they had staging that needed to be finished up. I am quite sure that he probably even helped her with the note...this is where I believe the "Listen Carefully" came from....he most likely was dictating to her what to write...Listen Carefully ...imo...wasn't meant to be written, it was instructions for HER. ...(snipped)...
    Interesting point. Not sure whether or not the "Listen Carefully" part was supposed to be in the note or not, but I do believe he dictated the note to her, at least part of it. They had a lot to do that night/early morning, and they probably divided up various tasks. Patsy probably couldn't bear to deal with JBR body so that was left to JR -- to move, stage, whatever -- after he calmed PR down when they realized she was in fact dead (or close to it). Back to the note: so he gave her the note as a job to write while he did other things. She probably couldn't think straight, couldn't get started, didn't know what to say. He threw out a few ideas and phrases and went away to do other things. He may have come and gone doing his part of the staging/clean up while she was writing - and threw out other ideas or half-heartedly listened as she read him what she wrote.

    In the end, I think it was thrown together by PR w/o JR having time to read it - maybe she read it to him or read parts of it, but I don't think JR realized what it said in its entirety. This is all JMHO...
    Fly high and free, Jhessye ~

    My posts are meant to help think through possibilities and are strictly an additional opinion under circumstances when many points of view need to be considered. I apologize in advance to anyone whose potential involvement is contemplated in error. Please understand that much of what is happening is merely brainstorming during unfortunate events.


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  9. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by SunnieRN View Post
    Go here:

    http://www.forstevethomas.com/index.htm

    Read this:


    A Letter From Steve Thomas

    The frivolous lawsuit filed by the Ramseys has concluded.

    I am sorry for the delay in making a public statement until now, but the Ramsey announcement of a resolution in March was premature.

    I am bound by the terms of the settlement not to discuss its conclusive points but I can tell you this: it was a thoughtful, deliberate decision. For the record, I was not the one who sought out a settlement in this case.

    My absolute requirement for any resolution was the mandate that I would admit no wrongdoing whatsoever, nor would I personally pay a single dollar in settlement. And that is exactly what was achieved with this resolution. In fact, the book can continue to be published, advertised, quoted, and marketed. I will continue to speak on the case whenever I wish. I continue to stand resolutely by my book and the opinions I expressed in it. My beliefs have not changed.

    The reality was this: I was well within my Constitutional rights to have stated my opinion regarding the events surrounding this murder. But this was a civil case. It was about money. Justice and "doing the right thing" do not always prevail in these cases, as we all know.

    On the other hand, we would have enjoyed deposing and taking people in front of a jury, and discovering the truth. Unfortunately, financial constraints continued to prohibit this, as I was in no position to take on the Ramseys' wealth. In fact, I lost my house and savings during this struggle.

    After almost 6 years, I can now look forward to a much brighter future. I continue to receive a warm welcome and tremendous support from police around the country. Although I miss police work, and have had invitations to re-join law enforcement, I have respectfully declined. I am taking my life in a new direction and am enjoying it with people I care about.

    Again, I want to reiterate that I personally paid not one red cent, not one thin dime, not one single dollar to settle this suit. I tried to the very end to take a principled position in this tragic case, and I believe I have done so.

    The future still holds hope that true justice for the murderer of an innocent girl will prevail. As I mentioned Proverbs 28:13 on Larry King Live, I still believe -- "without confession there is no forgiveness".

    Please know how forever grateful I am to you for supporting me throughout this ordeal. I can tell you that there are no finer men than Daniel Petrocelli and Chuck Diamond, who supported me unequivocally. Perhaps this knowledge and explanation is some small consolation for your support and dedication in helping me with this fight.

    Prior to my resignation in 1998, a man whom I admire greatly shared a famous quote with me: "It is a sin to remain silent, when it's your duty to protest."

    Steve Thomas
    6 August 2002
    Hmmm??

    www.dailyreportonline.com
    Attorney for Parents of JonBenet Ramsey Lands Two Libel Settlements
    R. Robin McDonald
    Fulton County Daily Report
    March 19, 2002
    In a one-two punch, L. Lin Wood Jr. has settled two unrelated libel cases: one brought by the parents of JonBenét Ramsey against a police detective turned author and a second filed by AirTran Airways Inc. against the Cleveland Plain Dealer.
    Wood reached both settlements with attorneys at Washington, D.C.-based Dow, Lohnes & Albertson -- his legal arch-nemesis in libel litigation.
    The terms of both settlements are confidential, Wood said. The Atlanta lawyer said he reached a verbal settlement last Friday on behalf of John and Patsy Ramsey WITH ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING FORMER BOULDER, COLO. POLICE DETECTIVE STEVE THOMAS. AirTran's libel suit against the Plain Dealer settled two weeks ago

    Wood said both cases settled after his clients secured favorable court rulings from two federal judges in Atlanta.
    ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THOMAS, co-author Don Davis and their publisher, St. Martin's Press, offered to settle with the Ramseys the same day that U.S. District Judge Willis B. Hunt Jr. decided the libel case could be tried in Georgia, said Wood. Ramsey v. Thomas, No.1:01-cv-801 (N.D. Ga. March 17, 2002). Thomas and Davis wrote "JonBenét: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation."
    Sean R. Smith, an attorney at Dow, Lohnes& Albertson, which defended Davis and St. Martin's, declined to comment on the case. The firm is also local counsel for Los Angeles attorney Daniel M. Petrocelli, who represented Thomas. Petrocelli was not available for comment.
    David Kaye, senior vice president for legal affairs at St. Martin's in New York, neither would confirm nor would deny that a settlement agreement has been reached.
    The Ramseys sued Thomas last year, claiming that his book on the investigation of their 6-year-old daughter's 1996 murder laid the blame for the slaying squarely on Patsy Ramsey. The suit accused Thomas of libel and slander and sought $80 million in damages. As a Boulder, Colo., police detective, Thomas was assigned to investigate JonBenét's death. In 2000, a grand jury declined to indict the Ramseys for their daughter's slaying. The Ramseys moved to the Atlanta area in 1997.
    Wood said Hunt's order means that, "If you write the book, baby, you distribute it in Georgia, you make money on it in Georgia, and the plaintiff lives in Georgia, you can be sued in Georgia."
    Wood said that trying the case in Georgia "is inherently more fair."
    "Think about how difficult it would be for most individuals to have to go to Colorado or New York to pursue a libel case even though the damage occurs to them where they reside," he said.
    And, in the Ramseys' case, the couple "clearly is going to be treated more fairly in Georgia where they have not suffered the negative publicity that they suffered in Colorado."
    Thomas' attorneys had argued that the suit could not be tried in Georgia but, rather, must be tried in Colorado where JonBenét was killed and where the majority of the book was written.
    Hunt disagreed. "First, both Mr. Thomas and Mr. Davis traveled to Georgia, though Mr. Thomas more often than Mr. Davis, to do research on the Ramseys and to visit certain locations located in Atlanta in preparation for the book, including the home of the Ramseys and the grave of JonBenét Ramsey," Hunt wrote.
    "Second, the book has been heavily marketed and sold in Atlanta, Georgia, a likely high sales area due to the fact that the Ramseys re-located here from Boulder, Colorado.... Mr. Davis and Mr. Thomas have not denied the fact that they derive substantial profits from the sales of the books, including those sales performed in Georgia. At the time the book was published and released for sale, Mr. Thomas and Mr. Davis were accusing Georgia residents of a crime, thereby affecting their reputation in their home community of Atlanta, Georgia....Almost all of the harm, or the 'effects' resulting from the book would take place wherever the Ramseys lived at the time the book was published, marketed and sold."
    Wood said the settlement with Thomas "totally vindicates" the Ramseys. However, he noted that Thomas "doesn't have a whole lot of money."
    He added, "The dollar amount is irrelevant to the Ramseys. They sued this case as a matter of principle." Like most settlements, the defendants made no admissions. But, Wood insisted, "The result speaks for itself. How many people settle a libel case?"


    Ahhhhh!!


  10. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Note that the ransom note cursive a that is supposed to approximate PR's cursive a isn't really cursive at all.
    Yes it is.
    It just happens that the manuscript a was superimposed. It overlapped. Thats why the upper right corner of the 'a' is a sharp square in the ransom note sample whereas PR's sample cursive a is rounded as a cursive should be. So really, what you are presenting in the ransom note 'a' is nothing but manuscripts and no cursives.
    It is without question overwhelmingly manuscript, but there are definitely a few cursive letter a’s in there.
    Compare the clearly cursive "a" in "situation" from page 2 of the RN to PR's cursive "a."
    That is in no way any sort of “superimposed” manuscript “a.”


    There is nothing unusual about the tail at the lower right because many of the manuscript a's from the ransom note have a tail leading to the next letter (failing to pick up the pen). The ransom note is not cursive.
    As I said above, it is overwhelmingly manuscript, but not exclusively.
    It seems you are in error, no?
    No.
    I tend to go by the handwriting and linguistic experts, including one from the US Secret Service and another UC professor who have indicated in a more professional setting that PR didn't write the note.
    This has been debated many times; some of the best in the world have identified PR, or at the very least been unable to exclude her.
    As I said earlier, there may be dueling experts, but seeing is believing.

    Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner:

    Q. What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
    A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
    Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
    A. No, that's 100 percent certain.
    Deposition of Gideon Epstein
    May 17, 2002

    David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner:

    “There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
    the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer, the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.”

    Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:

    “Based upon available exemplars compared to the purported "ransom" note in the JonBenét Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey.”

    Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

    Privately, however, Ubowski, who had made the early discovery that Patsy’s handwriting was consistent with the ransom note on twenty-four of the twenty-six alphabet letters, had recently told one detective, “I believe she wrote it.”
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 174

    Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:

    We were called upon to examine the ransom note that was left at the crime scene. The other handwriting expert was in Maryland. Both of us were kept separate so our opinions would be independent. In my opinion, I found that it was highly probable that Patsy was the person who wrote the note. I found over 243 similarities between her handwriting and the ransom note. The other handwriting expert said that he was 100 positive that Patsy wrote the note.

    Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner:

    “It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note.”

    Michelle Dresbold - A graduate of the United States Secret Service's Advanced Document Examination training program:

    “The two most important factors in identifying the writer of an anonymous letter are: matching patterns and overwhelming odds. The more patterns and characteristics in the anonymous writing that match the writing of the suspect, the more overwhelming are the odds that you’ve found your anonymous writer.

    Could so many similarities be a coincidence?”
    Last edited by cynic; 12-21-2010 at 02:22 AM.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)


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  12. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Yes it is.

    It is without question overwhelmingly manuscript, but there are definitely a few cursive letter a’s in there.
    Compare the clearly cursive "a" in "situation" from page 2 of the RN to PR's cursive "a."
    That is in no way any sort of “superimposed” manuscript “a.”


    As I said above, it is overwhelmingly manuscript, but not exclusively.
    No.

    This has been debated many times; some of the best in the world have identified PR, or at the very least been unable to exclude her.
    As I said earlier, there may be dueling experts, but seeing is believing.

    Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner:

    Q. What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
    A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
    Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
    A. No, that's 100 percent certain.
    Deposition of Gideon Epstein
    May 17, 2002

    David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner:

    “There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
    the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer, the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.”

    Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:

    “Based upon available exemplars compared to the purported "ransom" note in the JonBenét Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey.”

    Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

    Privately, however, Ubowski, who had made the early discovery that Patsy’s handwriting was consistent with the ransom note on twenty-four of the twenty-six alphabet letters, had recently told one detective, “I believe she wrote it.”
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 174

    Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:

    We were called upon to examine the ransom note that was left at the crime scene. The other handwriting expert was in Maryland. Both of us were kept separate so our opinions would be independent. In my opinion, I found that it was highly probable that Patsy was the person who wrote the note. I found over 243 similarities between her handwriting and the ransom note. The other handwriting expert said that he was 100 positive that Patsy wrote the note.

    Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner:

    “It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note.”

    Michelle Dresbold - A graduate of the United States Secret Service's Advanced Document Examination training program:

    “The two most important factors in identifying the writer of an anonymous letter are: matching patterns and overwhelming odds. The more patterns and characteristics in the anonymous writing that match the writing of the suspect, the more overwhelming are the odds that you’ve found your anonymous writer.

    Could so many similarities be a coincidence?”
    Ok, well I just looked at the RN written by PR and in the short part of the first page, there are 8 manuscript style 'a's and 31 others (cursive or capitals). So, that seems to me somewhat to favour the 'she didn't write it' theory.



  13. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    It is without question overwhelmingly manuscript, but there are definitely a few cursive letter a’s in there.
    Nope. Square top right corner=manuscript not cursive, that you erroneously call cursive. There were many anomolous characters in the note, you found an anomolous 'a' and erroneously decided to call it cursive. End of story.


  14. #84
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    During the televised CNN interview/debate between Steve Thomas and the Ramseys, Thomas asked Patsy if she agreed that whoever wrote the note also killed JonBenet. Patsy said yes she agreed.


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  16. #85
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    She even put the "hoodie" over her a's in the Pageant Entry form..before the RN was even written. Look at the M, in Mr. Ramsey...how the right bottom side of the M curves up a little...I have never seen a man write an M, like this before...only women. Not saying that there isn't one out there in the world that does, though....I just have never seen it before. I call it writing "fancy".
    "This time we get it right."


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  18. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrintGal View Post
    SD you have the patience of a saint. I seldom visit this forum because my head would explode.
    Comes with the territory, PrintGal. This forum is an anvil upon which one is beaten.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


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  20. #87
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    Mf, read Steve's letter again and his referral to the March statement. Ahhhhh.
    ___________________

    "This Time We Get It Right!"
    If you can read this, thank a teacher, if it's in English, thank a soldier!
    If I forget to mention it. Everything I post is my opinion, right or wrong, good or bad.
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  22. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Yes it is.
    No it isn't.


    This is exactly the kind of thing that gets people falsely accused: Misinformation.



    Note that the RN author was drawing a jagged vertical line and attaching a squared oval to it and calling it an 'a'. The 'a' that your are erroneously calling cursive has the vertical line but its superimposed sloppily on the squared oval. You can see the line because it makes the top of the 'a' appear jagged and flat-topped, not smooth like cursive. So, you are simply taking a sloppy, anomolous manuscript letter from the ransom note, erroneously calling it cursive, and mistakenly calling it a match to PR's cursive only because it looks similar. This is misinformation at its finest. Whats next?

    A linguist correctly points out: whoever wrote the ransom note had to be capable of writing the entire note, not just one or two letters. Its evident that PR was incapable of writing the entire note because she demonstrated that she didn't know how to spell 'advise'. RDI backpedals with claims like 'oh she forgot how to spell', or 'oh she's misspelling one word on purpose so she doesnt get caught'. Something ridiculous like that, adding to the massive list of claims RDI makes but can never seem to quite prove.
    Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 12-21-2010 at 01:56 PM.


  23. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    I admit your post seems convincing. Superficially anyway.
    Seeing is believing, my friend. Seeing is believing.

    I tend to go by the handwriting and linguistic experts,
    What do you think WE use?

    including one from the US Secret Service and another UC professor who have indicated in a more professional setting that PR didn't write the note.
    Both of which have several problems, not the least of which is the virtual army arrayed against them!

    Not that it matters, HOTYH. That's kind of the point here: with these charts, we don't NEED any experts. That was Alex Hunter's feeling, too.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


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  25. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Hmmm??

    Wood insisted, "The result speaks for itself. How many people settle a libel case?"
    A LOT of people. Wood KNOWS that, but that's his trademark: he always accepts settlements, then claims them as victories.

    Moreover, this article (if it can be called that, since it only took "information" from one side) more or less confirms what Mark Fuhrman said: that the lawyers for St. Martin's Press pulled the rug out from under ST against his wishes.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


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