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  1. #16
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    That looks like a definite possibility.

    Here's an article about Synanon that mentions Rose: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon
    Last edited by KateB; 04-26-2015 at 04:21 PM. Reason: repair url tag.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Does anyone know if this person has been ruled out for Beth Doe?

    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/31dfvic.html

    She has a mole in the same location, brown hair, brown eyes, and olive complexion. She took pictures from the family album before she left, and her family believes she was going somewhere with a boyfriend. PA is a long way from Australia, but if New York City was her actual destination/home for two years, and then said boyfriend dumped her in PA, I suppose it's possible.

    Thoughts?

  3. #18
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    Beth and Baby Doe were added to Namus yesterday (actually just Beth, they did not add one for the fetus).

    https://identifyus.org/cases/8913

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by webrocket View Post
    Beth and Baby Doe were added to Namus yesterday (actually just Beth, they did not add one for the fetus).

    https://identifyus.org/cases/8913
    The NamUs listing doesn't list any rule outs. I was wondering if there were any and who they were?

    I also wanted to know how they came up with the nickname "Beth." Was there something with the body to indicate this was her name in life (like Valerie Doe from Northern Nevada) or someone thought that she looked like a Beth, or ???

  5. #20
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    Dec 2008
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    This is a really sad case and I have been thinking about it for quite a while.

    I was thinking that the gunshot wound is odd. That's a strange place to shoot someone- in the neck. Why not shoot her in the head? In fact, why shoot her at all? The killer was obviously strong to cut her up like that with a fine serrated blade (likely a hacksaw). She was strangled first, and he knew he killed her that way. Why then shoot her in the neck afterward? That's pure risk: risk of someone hearing the shot, risk of someone finding the bullet. Since it was unnecessary and risky it's something he just wanted to do.

    He definitely planned this murder. I just don't think a full term pregnant woman would be travelling with three suitcases of identical size. Those suitcases were obtained with their purpose already known. He cut off the handles and painted the zippers black- he prepared them beforehand.

    He had a place where he felt completely safe too. It takes a while to cut up a body like that. I figure he was not worried about the length of time, the huge amounts of blood, or the gunshot sound. I bet he had access to a locked room/shed/basement to store hacksaws, tools, paint, and three big prepared suitcases. Was it a safe room in a crowded area? I don't think so. I think it was a remote setting, maybe farmland. There's the straw in the suitcase.

    Here's a wierd thing: Why go to all the trouble to dismember the body and place it in suitcases? It's easier, less messy, and less dangerous to simply bag a body and put it in the trunk. He wasn't doing it to try to separate the body parts because he threw all three suitcases in the same place. He did that because he was afraid he might be seen putting her in the vehicle and he had to make sure that it looked like suitcases and not a body.

    So he has a remote place somewhere with a room/shed yet is afraid of being seen putting something in the trunk. Why? Because he lives with someone else who might see him, someone other than Beth Doe. Someone who is used to the sound of a gun around the place because he is a hunter, which is why the police said he "knew what he was doing" when he dismembered her poor body. Someone who'd had a flowered chenille bedspread for a long time. A woman. I figure his only means of transportation was a pickup truck and he had to use suitcases to disguise the body when he went to dump it.

    Beth Doe depended on her killer for food, clothing, and shelter. She was found so very soon after her death. Surely the police were looking out and asking around for a missing full term pregnant woman. Yet she was not reported missing. She wasn't reported missing because the killer was her family and didn't report it on purpose. Also poor Beth Doe would have been missed if she had a job or close neighbors. It is no coincidence that she was killed near full term. There was something about that pregnancy that put her killer in danger and yet he kept her around as long as he possibly could, until the baby was about to be born. The killer wasn't her husband because then there would be no stigma to the pregnancy.

    She had gold fillings but missing teeth at a young age. This speaks of a good beginning but a financial hardship in the last several years of her life. She was around 20. I don't think the man was her natural father because- sorry to be graphic- she would have been pregnant sooner. I think her natural father left or died, leaving her mother much poorer. Her mother later took up with this other sadist who kept to himself and made sure his womenfolk kept to themselves. He got Beth Doe pregnant and became afraid his secret would be known. He blamed it on her, was furious with her, thought of her as a slut and therefore the cutting off of the nose and ears. He told Beth's mother some story about taking her off somewhere else to live. Beth Doe's mother was weak, abused, and had no means to support herself so she accepted this.

    That's my crazy theory anyway. The killer was her stepfather, a guy who lived in a rural area and kept him and his family to himself, a guy who was pretty strong and mean. He didn't like anybody and nobody liked him. There was a run down house (a remnant of the earlier, more financially stable times) with a locked shed on the premises. He didn't have much money and was driving an old vehicle, probably a pickup truck, when he disposed of her body. He didn't live all that far away from the disposal site. He liked to hunt and liked guns. He was probably in the military at some point because of the suitcase preparation.

    I'm still thinking about how the newspaper and writing on Beth Doe's hand fits into all this.

  6. #21
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    I wish I knew exactly where in the neck she was shot because that was something the killer wanted to do not something he needed to do.. If my theory is correct, I think he would have shot her in her windpipe close enough to leave powder burns. He wanted her voice silenced about the pregnancy.

    The video made for her brought me to tears. She deserved so much better.

    http://www.squidoo.com/missingwoman1976#module73745761
    Last edited by tragco; 08-11-2011 at 02:14 PM.

  7. #22
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    I am not getting the feeling she was an immigrant. I think those dental fillings during that time frame just seem more American than foreign. I hope they checked her dental records with all the dentist's offices in around a 70 mile radius from that overpass.

  8. #23
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    Jan 2010
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    I keep coming back to Karen Beth Kamsch lately.

    Depending on what you read, Karen never started school in the fall of 1976.

    Now Beth Doe would have conceived in mid to late March of 1976. So assuming she was in school, no one would have likely noticed the pregnancy by June. However, they would have noticed in September so if someone wanted to hide that pregnancy - your not going back to school in Sept.

    I'm wondering if anyone in the family (other than the grandmother) saw Karen in the fall (say Thanksgiving time) - because the death right before Christmas of Beth could have been deliberate to cover up the pregnancy/infant from family members who would be gathering and asking questions.

    Some articles say Karen was abused but they decline to elaborate on it. I'm wondering if it was sexual abuse.

    It is interesting - or coincidental - that Beth Doe was exhumed in Oct of 2007 for DNA - a couple months after the well on Wishing Rock (Karen's case) was examined for evidence.

    From Beth's case:

    While there were different interpretations of what was actually written on the hand, almost definitely was WSR. Next to that was either a 4 or a 5. Below and to the right was either a 4 or 7.
    Karen lived at 51 Wishing Rock Rd

    Assuming she wanted to write her address - or someone else's address from Wishing Rock on her hand.....Wishing Rock Rd isn't that big though...I don't think she would have needed to write down someone else's.

    Wishing Rock - could be WSR the

    first number is a 4 or 5 OK - use 5
    The second number could be a 1 that was interpreted to be a 7 - it could depend on her handwriting.
    Last edited by apearn; 09-01-2011 at 12:11 PM.

  9. #24
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    An article for the 35th anniversary of Beth Doe's discovery:

    http://www.timesleader.com/news/35-y...2-20-2011.html

    McAndrew said investigators learned that a specific suitcase manufacturer discarded flawed suitcases by removing the handles.
    I don't remember seeing this information in previous articles; forgive me if it has. That's interesting because while removing the suitcases would effectively destroy their resale value, there might have been nothing to stop employees from taking a few defective suitcases home to use for storing things. Presumably the factory didn't have a trash compactor because you'd think crushing defective suitcases would be less time-consuming than removing the handles. It still doesn't explain the paint on the zippers.

    I wonder if LE has looked into past employees of the suitcase factory and whether any of them had a girlfriend or wife who suddenly "left" him. They should also talk to people who lived near the factory and see if they remember whether it was common to see just anyone salvaging suitcases from the trash bins...in other words, was the factory easily accessible or were only employees permitted on the grounds?
    <-- Watched one too many Hanna-Barbera "teenage detective" cartoons as a kid.

  10. #25
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    Dec 2005
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    I don't remember seeing this information in previous articles; forgive me if it has.
    You are correct, tatertot, that info has not been released before.

    As far as the spray paint is concerned...I've been in retail (pretty much all aspects of it) for more years than I care to count. Several years ago I was involved in the liquidation of merchandise that had been 'packed away' - some for years. We'd mark it down, 25% - 50% - 75% - 90% then discard whatever was left of it in the dumpster. Our instruction was to essentially render the product unusable so that folks couldn't dumpster dive and take it back to a store for a refund. So we were told to spray paint it. Granted, this is retail, not manufacturer, but I can see how that extra step might be taken. Cut off the handles, spray paint around the zippers - and throw it in the dumpster. From there, back in the 70s, it would likely end up in "the dump". That's what we called them back then, not landfills. Dumps. Anything and everything ended up there.

    So could it have been someone who worked at a luggage manufacturer? Sure. Or a dumpster diver. Or the guy who emptied the dumpster. Or someone treasure hunting at a dump.

    Sigh!


  11. #26
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    Southwestern PA
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    This case is another one that has always baffled me. For an almost full term pregnant girl to go missing and for no one to miss her is crazy.

    The article that was posted about her 35th years of going unidentified brings some interesting insight.. especially about the suitcase handles being cut off by the manufacturer for beling flawed...

    It is so horrible how this monster dismembered her, to cut off her nose, ears and breasts...

    She was found by Interstate 80, she could be from anywhere.

    A body was found last month along a rest stop on the PA turnpike in Bedford and the girl was identified last week from a girl missing from Portland Oregon.

    Hopefully with the DNA they can identify her. This is so sad.

  12. #27
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    Dec 2005
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    "The exhumation did lead to increased interest in this case and we routinely get tips from all over the country," McAndrew said. "Unfortunately, none have panned out."

    Investigators entered DNA from Beth Doe and the fetus into a national database and the NaMUS database, an Internet-based database that profiles missing persons and unidentified bodies, McAndrew said. "Hopefully this will lead to something in the future," he said.

    For more information on the case, visit www.pamissing.com.

  13. #28
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    May 2011
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    I wonder if they did a DNA extraction on the fetus? It seems like they might be able to find the baby's father that way if he's ever been in trouble. Maybe not; I'm not sure how that all works.
    --Jennifer

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDuMo View Post
    I wonder if they did a DNA extraction on the fetus? It seems like they might be able to find the baby's father that way if he's ever been in trouble. Maybe not; I'm not sure how that all works.
    The NamUs database does show that there was DNA tests done on the fetus. Look in the DNA section and it lists an ID number for the fetus. https://identifyus.org/cases/8913

    As for the father ever being in trouble, I don't think that LE routinely take DNA on everybody arrested, just if they are suspected of a crime that would involve DNA (rape, murder, etc.) I am pretty sure that they were not using DNA tests in the late 1970's.

    Changing the subject: This is the first that I have come across this case. I grew up in NJ less than an hour from where Beth Doe was found. I graduated high school in 1977, so we would be close to the same age. Something about her image is eerily familiar. I can't place it, but it could be a childhood memory of a girl that was in the foster care system. I can't remember her name but I think it started with a D - Darlene, Donna or Debbie? She was in our school district for maybe a year or two, probably around 1972/1973. I remember the place where she lived, it was a sort of group home or home for "wayward girls" as my mother described it. It seems to me that she was of Italian descent, which would match the Mediterranean mentioned.

    Another thought is that she could have been part of culture that practiced arranged marriages when the girls were in their mid-teens. One of my high school friends was from Greece and her family arranged to have her husband brought over when she was 16. She was pregnant by the time she was 17 and by the time she was 20 she was divorced. The guy had beat her pretty badly but still she was shunned from the family when she left him. Beth Doe's murder seems very personal, not just random. So could it be that she was pregnant when the man she was promised to came to the US and when he found out, he killed her? Just a thought...
    Last edited by ClaireNC; 02-02-2012 at 04:08 PM.
    Please be aware that what I type is my opinion.

  15. #30
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    Jan 2010
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    485
    I drove along rt 80 from Danville PA to Delaware Water Gap last weekend. I was watching for the bridge she was thrown off of and when I found it it just really struck me that that is a first opportunity dump spot. There is so much state forest to drive through on the east side - and there are better rivers on the east and west sides. That bridge is high as well and some of the other ones are much lower and going over larger rivers.

    It just felt like a first opportunity type spot.

    It would be interesting to see a 1976 PA road map to see what roads were there. There is a loop from Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area now - 476s to 80w to 81n - right back to Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. I'm wondering if it was there then.

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