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  1. #31
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    Namus has: Estimated postmortem interval 7 Days

    That is different from the original reports.

  2. #32
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    http://baldwin-whitehall.patch.com/a...ature-b3e757a7

    May 5, 2012

    She is mentioned in article above.

  3. #33
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    for Beth Doe and her little girl.
    now an official Penn State alum!

    Kindness is magic. (Derek)

    @JaneDoe25 (Twitter) <~~~ videos & pics of Harry right here

  4. #34
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    I was thinking that the gunshot wound is odd. That's a strange place to shoot someone- in the neck. Why not shoot her in the head? In fact, why shoot her at all? The killer was obviously strong to cut her up like that with a fine serrated blade (likely a hacksaw). She was strangled first, and he knew he killed her that way. Why then shoot her in the neck afterward? That's pure risk: risk of someone hearing the shot, risk of someone finding the bullet. Since it was unnecessary and risky it's something he just wanted to do.
    I've wondered about the shooting as well. Maybe just an inexperienced killer....depending on where it was on the neck.

  5. #35
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    I've often wondered if there was another crime scene that may have included her family.

    This one was a couple months earlier: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/n...ple/index.html

    Some physical similarities there.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by apearn View Post
    I've often wondered if there was another crime scene that may have included her family.

    This one was a couple months earlier: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/n...ple/index.html

    Some physical similarities there.
    There's a whole forum devoted to the South Carolina couple: Mystery couple murdered South Carolina 1976 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
    Last edited by KateB; 04-26-2015 at 04:21 PM. Reason: repair url tag.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  7. #37
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    Twenty years later, another dismembered girl, dark hair, dark eyes, found in a suitcase in the water - bed covering also involved. Some scuttlebutt has it she was killed by a motorcycle gang - shades of the two girls found at French Creek, not so far away. To my knowledge there were/are motorcycle gangs in the area, met up with a few of them.
    PENNSYLVANIA UNIDENTIFIED-Downingtown, PA Jul 11, 1995 - Help Find The Missing


    I lived for 4 LONG months 2 roads over from where this body was found. The area is VERY spooky, has a BAD feel to it. I had to move out. There are more legends and stories about deaths and ghosts in the area, I have to check them out.

    I posted this here because I wonder if there is a pattern, an ongoing pattern, of disposing of young girls in suitcases with bedding in the water.

    Okay, I found a bit more of interest, maybe?

    "The Associated Press

    LOS ANGELES — A Pennsylvania couple wanted in the dismemberment slaying of a man who was cut into pieces and stashed in a backpack and under a bed in a downtown hotel room was arrested Friday, authorities said."


    Read More http://www.timesleader.com/stories/P...#ixzz26d3QmNqb

    Could it be that the bedspread on Carbon County Jane Doe, and the one from Downingtown were taken from a motel or hotel? Maybe the dismemberment was done there in the tub or shower. The NY Times had me wondering, thinking the killer(s) had to have some intelligence to be reading it, but maybe not. Sometimes in hotels/motels, newspapers are left out for "guests" to read.

    Just some points to ponder.
    Last edited by KateB; 04-26-2015 at 04:20 PM. Reason: repair url tag.

  8. #38
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    Some of the articles describe the bedspread as the kind you'd find in a motel, but that style was generally popular in "country" decorating (whether authentically rural or city imitation) for most of the fifties and sixties.

    I've often wondered whether it was at a cottage that hunters rent -- with a shed or garage where they could butcher and hang their game. Uh, I don't think I'm going to get any more detailed than that, but blood wouldn't have been a big issue.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbuff View Post
    Some of the articles describe the bedspread as the kind you'd find in a motel, but that style was generally popular in "country" decorating (whether authentically rural or city imitation) for most of the fifties and sixties.

    I've often wondered whether it was at a cottage that hunters rent -- with a shed or garage where they could butcher and hang their game. Uh, I don't think I'm going to get any more detailed than that, but blood wouldn't have been a big issue.
    For some reason I can't picture a hunting camp with a bunch of hunters as the place she was killed and mutilated. I cannot picture more than one man interested in murdering, cutting off parts of a pregant woman; to me this murder/mutilation is very personal. i also can't picture a hunting camp with bedspreads, but I could be wrong.

    Deer hunting in the PA "southern tier" (I don't know what area that encompasses exactly) is a place well-known by hunters even from as distant as the Canadian Border of NY, they visit, about once a year or so. But, I believe??? the deer season was past by then, does anyone know? I never cared to keep track since we weren't much of a hunting family.

    BTW, while I may be new to posting on this thread, I am not new to this case, have followed, watched, thought about it for years. I even considered she may have been native American, Greek, or Italian. I also wonder about the date of death, 1976, a Bicentennial year, for most of the states. Could that have played into this?

    During the forties and fifties my family still used their "old" (and that they were) chenille bedspreads, never mind the "fashion". Somehow I can imagine an "old" bedspread, or one from a motel being used.

    So, what do we have now? A suitcase which may have been a reject with the handles cut off - I believe that's a good clue. Were there any manufacturers of suitcases in the area at that time?

    We have a worse for wear chenille bedspread from a home where they kept and used that sort of thing/rural probably, a motel, or from a wife who wanted to get rid of stuff she no longer wanted it pawned it off on hunting hubby.

    We have a NY Times, either a freebie or hanging around wherever the deed was done. It it was from a motel, that I can understand, grab the free paper, or put in your dime and run. If it came from home, however, that suggests the perp was a hair smarter than the average.

    Then we have the straw packing. That suggests the suitcase manufacturer. Does anyone know where suitcases were manufactured in the tri-state area? By this I mean NY, NJ, and PA. It could, of course go a bit further south to MD and Delaware, or a bit north to CT.

    What else does anyone think there is of evidentiary value? The nose, ears, and breasts cut off? What meaning to this? I don't know, I believe it's personal, very personal, almost reminds me of Saucy Jack. Obviously it had the meaning to the perp. Any other cases like that with the same or similar parts cut off?

    And let's not forget the writing on her hand:

    "There were letters and numbers written on the left hand of the victim in ink (color of ink unknown). While there were different interpretations of what was actually written on the hand, almost definitely was WSR. Next to that was either a 4 or a 5. Below and to the right was either a 4 or 7. Police checked license plates and CB call signs but were unable to determine the significance of the notations. The ink would probably have lasted 8-12 hours."

    Lasted 8 - 12 hours. What does that tell us? The killer had to kill, dismember, pack her in suitcases, and drive to the site of the dump within that time period. Where would that lead us? It would take him at least 2/3 hours to do that, deduct from 12, what do we have - 9 hours. A body can do a LOT of traveling in 9 hours. Maybe the letters and numbers were directions. Hmm, new thought here, maybe I/we should look into that.

    Just more thoughts, take them as you will.

  10. #40
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    I think that the ink would last 8 to 12 hours on a living person who is actively rubbing against their clothing and washing themselves. Ink on a deceased person would probably last much longer if the body remained dry.


  11. #41
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    something doesn't make sense here with the suitcases, the handles and the dump site.

    I've been on Route 80 and while I suppose anything is possible, I'm trying to see how someone could pull over the shoulder of a major interstate, right before or after crossing a river on an overpass/bridge, then remove not one, but three suitcases (without handles) and throw them over the side unnoticed. it was assumed the killer thought they'd go in the river and be washed away but they all were found on land.

    if the killer wanted to dump them, then having handles surely would have made the dump easier. also, if he wanted to make sure they went in the water, then stopping mid-bridge would do it.

    is anyone aware of any pictures of the actual dump site? I'm thinking that he dumped them not from Route 80 but from some cliff-like elevation where he tossed them down and then left the scene.

    one last thing about the newspaper, the Doe page says "New York Sunday News" which I assume is the Sunday version of the NY Daily News, a tabloid like rag and not the NY Times.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaireNC View Post
    The NamUs database does show that there was DNA tests done on the fetus. Look in the DNA section and it lists an ID number for the fetus. https://identifyus.org/cases/8913

    As for the father ever being in trouble, I don't think that LE routinely take DNA on everybody arrested, just if they are suspected of a crime that would involve DNA (rape, murder, etc.) I am pretty sure that they were not using DNA tests in the late 1970's.

    Changing the subject: This is the first that I have come across this case. I grew up in NJ less than an hour from where Beth Doe was found. I graduated high school in 1977, so we would be close to the same age. Something about her image is eerily familiar. I can't place it, but it could be a childhood memory of a girl that was in the foster care system. I can't remember her name but I think it started with a D - Darlene, Donna or Debbie? She was in our school district for maybe a year or two, probably around 1972/1973. I remember the place where she lived, it was a sort of group home or home for "wayward girls" as my mother described it. It seems to me that she was of Italian descent, which would match the Mediterranean mentioned.

    Another thought is that she could have been part of culture that practiced arranged marriages when the girls were in their mid-teens. One of my high school friends was from Greece and her family arranged to have her husband brought over when she was 16. She was pregnant by the time she was 17 and by the time she was 20 she was divorced. The guy had beat her pretty badly but still she was shunned from the family when she left him. Beth Doe's murder seems very personal, not just random. So could it be that she was pregnant when the man she was promised to came to the US and when he found out, he killed her? Just a thought...
    Do you remember the name of the home, or the town it was in? This sounds like a real possibility.

    One of the biggest reasons to have nobody looking for her would be that she was from foster care or some such situation where there was nobody to care.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    For some reason I can't picture a hunting camp with a bunch of hunters as the place she was killed and mutilated. I cannot picture more than one man interested in murdering, cutting off parts of a pregant woman; to me this murder/mutilation is very personal. i also can't picture a hunting camp with bedspreads, but I could be wrong.

    Deer hunting in the PA "southern tier" (I don't know what area that encompasses exactly) is a place well-known by hunters even from as distant as the Canadian Border of NY, they visit, about once a year or so. But, I believe??? the deer season was past by then, does anyone know? I never cared to keep track since we weren't much of a hunting family.
    On camps: The one I'm familiar with is a group of guys but they use it as a personal getaway weekends throughout the year. It's each member's responsibility to provided bedding. I know my comforter from my college years is on the bed of one member so it's possible.

    On deer season: Archery starts at the end of September. Rifle starts the Monday after Thanksgiving (it's a school holiday here) and goes 2 weeks. Muzzleloader starts right after Christmas. Bear is in there somewhere too.
    “The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment.” ~Bertrand Russell

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    For some reason I can't picture a hunting camp with a bunch of hunters as the place she was killed and mutilated. I cannot picture more than one man interested in murdering, cutting off parts of a pregant woman; to me this murder/mutilation is very personal. i also can't picture a hunting camp with bedspreads, but I could be wrong.
    I wasn't picturing a bunch of hunters there, I was thinking of someone who knew it was there and took advantage of it being empty. I was assuming someone's wife had furnished the place, probably with stuff she wanted to get rid of anyway.

    I also wonder about the date of death, 1976, a Bicentennial year, for most of the states. Could that have played into this?
    It could have, but I can't see an obvious connection. The other thing that happened in 1976 was the Olympics in Montreal, which drew people from all over the world, many of whom spent additional time traveling in North America. But most of them would have been gone by Christmas.

    We have a NY Times, either a freebie or hanging around wherever the deed was done. It it was from a motel, that I can understand, grab the free paper, or put in your dime and run. If it came from home, however, that suggests the perp was a hair smarter than the average.
    I think it was the Sunday News, which would be the Sunday version of the Daily News, which is most decidedly not an intellectual publication. It also tends to be something not read much outside of the NYC metropolitan area.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by webrocket View Post
    something doesn't make sense here with the suitcases, the handles and the dump site.

    I've been on Route 80 and while I suppose anything is possible, I'm trying to see how someone could pull over the shoulder of a major interstate, right before or after crossing a river on an overpass/bridge, then remove not one, but three suitcases (without handles) and throw them over the side unnoticed. it was assumed the killer thought they'd go in the river and be washed away but they all were found on land.

    if the killer wanted to dump them, then having handles surely would have made the dump easier. also, if he wanted to make sure they went in the water, then stopping mid-bridge would do it.

    is anyone aware of any pictures of the actual dump site? I'm thinking that he dumped them not from Route 80 but from some cliff-like elevation where he tossed them down and then left the scene.

    one last thing about the newspaper, the Doe page says "New York Sunday News" which I assume is the Sunday version of the NY Daily News, a tabloid like rag and not the NY Times.
    BBM, you are absolutely correct about the NY Sunday News, and not the Times. That lays to rest one of my questions, and lowers the perps IQ a bit - thanks.

    There are pictures of the bridge and the exact spot where the suitcases landed somewhere on the net, I've seen them, but I don't remember where.

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