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  1. #1
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    Steely's curling iron theory

    Not all curling irons have safety tips. PR competed in pageants in the 70's. She may have had a marcel curling iron which give "professional results" and they can get really hot.

    http://sos.georgia.gov/acrobat/examb...nsure_exam.pdf

    [ame="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-green-curling-iron-/320626672893?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa6d6 c4fd#ht_500wt_922"]Vintage green curling iron - eBay (item 320626672893 end time Jan-03-11 20:34:51 PST)[/ame]

    [ame="http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CURLING-IRON-GREEN-WOODEN-HANDLE-WORKS-/280605620032?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415565 f740#ht_500wt_1156"]VINTAGE CURLING IRON with GREEN WOODEN HANDLE - WORKS - eBay (item 280605620032 end time Dec-24-10 22:13:52 PST)[/ame]

    [ame="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Hair-Pins-w-Box-Electra-Curling-Iron-w-Box-/310281889874?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483e3d e852#ht_500wt_1156"]Vintage Hair Pins w/ Box Electra -Curling Iron w/Box - eBay (item 310281889874 end time Dec-26-10 17:50:21 PST)[/ame]

    [ame="http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-GRANTS-ELECTRA-CURL-CURLING-IRON-w-BOX-STAND_W0QQitemZ350287655748QQcategoryZ11859QQcmdZV iewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC% 26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS %252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D310281889874%26ps%3D6 3%26clkid%3D6099650863394838695#ht_1074wt_907"]VINTAGE GRANTS ELECTRA CURL CURLING IRON w BOX & STAND - eBay (item 350287655748 end time Jan-26-11 05:31:39 PST)[/ame]

    [ame="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Portable-Antique-Curling-Iron-w-Batteries-/290516650481?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a424 49f1#ht_500wt_1156"]Vintage Portable Antique Curling Iron w/ Batteries - eBay (item 290516650481 end time Jan-02-11 07:27:57 PST)[/ame]


    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay9dSbaHbKI&feature=related[/ame]
    "these irons get HOTTTTT"
    "Marcel irons give professional results"
    "Tied the hair back, now there is more room to work"
    Last edited by Steely; 01-03-2011 at 01:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    http://www.aapd.org/upload/articles/Schmitt2-08-S1.pdf

    About 10 percent of physical child abuse injuries are burns.

  3. #3
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    Are you saying that Patsy had the same exact curling iron she had in the 70s in the 90s? Or that she had a Marcel curling iron in the 70s and then she brought a new one in the 90s? If it's the first one, I can't see Patsy having the same of anything for 20+ years. I have a straightener and it just got kind of crappy after a few years; I'm not sure if it would be the same with a curling iron.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    Are you saying that Patsy had the same exact curling iron she had in the 70s in the 90s? Or that she had a Marcel curling iron in the 70s and then she brought a new one in the 90s? If it's the first one, I can't see Patsy having the same of anything for 20+ years. I have a straightener and it just got kind of crappy after a few years; I'm not sure if it would be the same with a curling iron.
    I agree it is more likely that PR purchased new curling iron(s) for JB's pageant days. I've wondered if she got a new one that Christmas she just couldn't wait to try out and that is why there aren't Christmas videos of the family opening presents.

    Marcel irons have been around a long time. They are a little harder to manage at first but "give professional results." Curling irons with springs can be safety tip free also. They even make clipless curling irons which come with a heat resistant glove but I'm not sure if they were available in the 90's. Most of the ones I have seen have a rounded tip. Some of the older Marcel irons seem to have pointed ends.

    At any rate, I do think PR probably had a PROFESSIONAL model curling iron(s) from a hair salon and/or wig supply store. Professional irons get hotter much faster than regular consumer curling irons and they don't all have safety tips. They also make the barrels with different SHAPES (squares and triangles). Some marcel irons come without cords and are heated on a little stove. I don't know which curling irons were new out in the 90's without safety tips. The curling irons I posted were ones I found doing a quick search for vintage curling irons. Do a search for marcel irons and clipless curling irons and you will see that not all curling irons have safety tips...NOT then and NOT now. They also come in a large variety of barrel sizes!

    I think this is a big misconception about curling irons and why some dismiss the idea of a curling iron so quickly. If some medical experts suspected a stun gun... what about a curling iron? Is it possible? I don't know, because I'm not an expert but how many of those medical experts knew about safety tip free curling irons? Some think those marks are from rings or buttons. Does a curling iron with a hot pointed tip really seem out of the question?

    If I were LE, I would analyze photos of the R's bathrooms, list of items SIS removed from home, photos of JB's pageants, VIDEOS of the home, videos of the pageants and preparation for them, and I would re-interview anyone who might know anything about PR's curling irons. (Interview hairdressers, housekeepers, photographers, friends, BR, JR, etc.) My guess is there is a photo or video somewhere of PR doing JB's hair which might show a safety-tip free curling iron. There might even be a beauty supply store with records of selling that type of curling iron to PR. Now of course, even if she did have one... it wouldn't prove anything. But could this be why the R's didn't want JB's body exhumed even though some thought proving "stun gun" marks might help exonerate them? Just a theory.

  5. #5
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    Good points Steely..I agree that Patsy likely had professional type curling irons..nothing but the best for her pageant doll..Could be curling iron burns as opposed to stun gun marks..its possible because we dont know for a fact what they are...

  6. #6
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    Wouldn't there have been some kind of documentation if she burns on her body?
    I've had curling iron burns before, and they don't really look anything like stun gun marks.
    "Life's splendor forever lies in wait about each one of us in all its fullness, but veiled from view, deep down, invisible, far off. It is there, though, not hostile, not reluctant, not deaf. If you summon it by the right word, by its right name, it will come."
    - Kafka
    "Know the right moment."

    What I type here is mostly my opinion.
    I really don't care if my opinions offend.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan's Mom View Post
    Wouldn't there have been some kind of documentation if she burns on her body?
    I've had curling iron burns before, and they don't really look anything like stun gun marks.

    I have doubts as to how the ME documented his finding or rather what wasnt documented. It was reported by some that were there, that not all things were written down. You also have to take into account, the blunders that he/ME made; example the reuse of the nail clippers.

    As far as the burns go, I am not the expert here on Autopsy, there are others far more qualified to answer this, but from what I have learned from them, is this.... Burns and injuries have different effects on live bodies versus dead bodies. Burns may not look like normal burns and abrasions may look like burns.. Which only adds to the hmmmmm theory.......
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

  8. #8
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    I thought about a curling iron too, Steely, but then settled on a culinary torch because the marks weren't all the same size.

    SuperDave says they are not burns though, but they sure look like burns to me. I liked the idea of a culinary torch because the user can control the kind of burn they make, whether it be direct which makes little round burns of varying sizes or diffuse burns.

  9. #9
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    Having been around the child pageant scene for many years, I would be surprised if Patsy didn't have a professional accompany her to the pageants to do JB's hair. Most serious pageant moms do not do their child's hair by themself. Still she could have owned one for herself.

    I believe the coroner described the injury as an "abrasion". Would a burn (or even an abrasion for that matter) still be red after death?
    Last edited by KariKae; 01-03-2011 at 02:20 PM. Reason: missing word

  10. #10
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    Moms with tempers, very often do use things like curling irons, hair brushes, etc...to wack their daughters. My mother was fixin' my sister's hair for graduation, & I guess she was being uncooperative, or whatever, because my mom wacked her hard on the head, with a hand held mirror. That thing broke into hundreds of little pieces, & my sister graduated with the sparkliest, most reflective hair, in her class. My thing with Patsy, is this...I think she was very abusive towards Jon Benet. systematically & consistently abusive. I don't think whatever happened that night, happened because of an isolated fit of rage. I'm not sure how 'sexual' the abuse was, but I do think think her vagina was involved. I also think Jon Benet might have been sexually abused by someone else. IMO, it seems that the abuse had come to a breaking point. the bed wetting, the soiling herself, Patsy's clean up, the pagents, the sexualized clothes & make-up, the dance & singing practice, the drs visits...that's not a normal childhood. IMO, Patsy had complete control of her every second, & Jon Benet couldn't take it anymore. She was seen crying at a Christmas party, saying she didn't feel pretty, she looked pale & withdrawn, the 911 call, the planned 'intervention'...all kinds of things point to a big problem, in that house. I would think that a very abusive mother, especially a perfectionist like Patsy, wouldn't take too kindly, to outsiders, interfering in her private life. Private lives are off limits. What would someone do, if she realized that her outside actions were garnering negative feedback? Would she panic? I think so...especially, if those outside actions were just a tip of the iceberg. Would Patsy have been scared that Jon Benet, would blab her secrets? I think so. I think somebody like Patsy, would be furious at the intrusion, on her private life. If her abuse was as bad as I suspect, well, Patsy may have seen that there was no turning back. I've suspected for awhile, that there might have been some premeditation involved in Jon Benet's murder. maybe not a long, planned out premeditation, but a panicked, last minute plot.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodie20 View Post
    Moms with tempers, very often do use things like curling irons, hair brushes, etc...to wack their daughters. My mother was fixin' my sister's hair for graduation, & I guess she was being uncooperative, or whatever, because my mom wacked her hard on the head, with a hand held mirror. That thing broke into hundreds of little pieces, & my sister graduated with the sparkliest, most reflective hair, in her class. My thing with Patsy, is this...I think she was very abusive towards Jon Benet. systematically & consistently abusive. I don't think whatever happened that night, happened because of an isolated fit of rage. I'm not sure how 'sexual' the abuse was, but I do think think her vagina was involved. I also think Jon Benet might have been sexually abused by someone else. IMO, it seems that the abuse had come to a breaking point. the bed wetting, the soiling herself, Patsy's clean up, the pagents, the sexualized clothes & make-up, the dance & singing practice, the drs visits...that's not a normal childhood. IMO, Patsy had complete control of her every second, & Jon Benet couldn't take it anymore. She was seen crying at a Christmas party, saying she didn't feel pretty, she looked pale & withdrawn, the 911 call, the planned 'intervention'...all kinds of things point to a big problem, in that house. I would think that a very abusive mother, especially a perfectionist like Patsy, wouldn't take too kindly, to outsiders, interfering in her private life. Private lives are off limits. What would someone do, if she realized that her outside actions were garnering negative feedback? Would she panic? I think so...especially, if those outside actions were just a tip of the iceberg. Would Patsy have been scared that Jon Benet, would blab her secrets? I think so. I think somebody like Patsy, would be furious at the intrusion, on her private life. If her abuse was as bad as I suspect, well, Patsy may have seen that there was no turning back. I've suspected for awhile, that there might have been some premeditation involved in Jon Benet's murder. maybe not a long, planned out premeditation, but a panicked, last minute plot.



    Welcome dodie.....
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan's Mom View Post
    Wouldn't there have been some kind of documentation if she burns on her body?
    I've had curling iron burns before, and they don't really look anything like stun gun marks.
    Evan's Mom, that is what you would think, isn't it? But not using separate clippers in a homicide investigation seems like a huge error so I am suspicious the ME may have made other errors. An autopsy is subjective. It relies on the ME's verbal descriptions.

    One type of "abrasion" is called a "friction burn." The only way to know for sure what caused those "abrasions" would be to examine the tissue. You can't really tell from a photo and I am suspicious the ME did not examine them as carefully as he should have. I wonder if it would have been more accurate to call these "unknown abrasions" "unknown lesions" since the ME did not examine them under a microscope to make a differential diagnosis.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18472235
    "The features of the lesions examined under the light microscope were intraepidermal separation, subepidermal (dermoepidermal) separation, coagulation necrosis in the epidermis, nuclear elongation in the epidermis, dark-staining epidermal nucleus, depth of homogenization in the dermis, and nuclear elongation in the epithelium of hair follicles. A significantly high rate of electrical lesions had intraepidermal separation. The rate of subepidermal separation was slightly more significant in flame burns. A significantly higher rate of electrical lesions had both intraepidermal and subepidermal separation. The rate of coagulation necrosis in the epidermis was significantly the highest in electrical lesions. Although the severity of nuclear elongation was the most significant in electrical lesions, varying degrees of nuclear elongation in the epidermis were present in all three groups. Dark staining of the epidermal nuclei was present in all lesions except for one electrical lesion, though the severity of staining was significant in the abrasion group. The depth of homogenization was slightly more significant in the abrasion group. The rate of nuclear elongation in the epithelium of the hair follicles was significantly lower in the abrasion group. The results of this study revealed that certain morphological changes determined under a light microscope could help the differential diagnoses of electrical lesions, flame burns and abrasions."


    "Not only is the appearance of lesions important, but the pattern and distribution on the skin is as well."
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/educa...tc/injury.html
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/education/derm/text.html
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/educa...b/erosion.html
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/educa...tc/injury.html
    "Abrasions are traumatically caused erosions."

    I've never had a curling iron burn that looked remotely like a stun gun mark either. But have we had the hot end of a safety-tip free curling iron pushed into our skin? That would leave a branding type burn which would leave an injury with a pattern... it would have defined edges. Thankfully, I haven't had this happen to me, but I wonder if it might cause a patterned injury like the "abrasions" on JB's cheek and back. I do have a professional iron which is safety tip free and a split second of the clip against my neck left a mark that looked like a scratch similar to one I saw on JB's autopsy photo. I've also brushed the barrel against my arm and it left a mark that looked more like an abrasion than a typical burn. Those were split-second accidents. A professional quality safety-tip free curling iron would cause a significant burn in a very short period of time, especially on the tender skin of a child.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    I thought about a curling iron too, Steely, but then settled on a culinary torch because the marks weren't all the same size.

    SuperDave says they are not burns though, but they sure look like burns to me. I liked the idea of a culinary torch because the user can control the kind of burn they make, whether it be direct which makes little round burns of varying sizes or diffuse burns.
    They look like burns to me too, justthinkin! I think I saw you post about a culinary torch before, was that you? I think that is a possibility too but I wondered about a culinary torch if because it is a flame, they'd blister up more? What does the tip of that kind of torch look like? If the end of it was hot and pushed into the skin, would that leave that kind of mark? Are they round? The "stun gun" marks have some edges, don't they?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha_C View Post
    I have doubts as to how the ME documented his finding or rather what wasnt documented. It was reported by some that were there, that not all things were written down. You also have to take into account, the blunders that he/ME made; example the reuse of the nail clippers.

    As far as the burns go, I am not the expert here on Autopsy, there are others far more qualified to answer this, but from what I have learned from them, is this.... Burns and injuries have different effects on live bodies versus dead bodies. Burns may not look like normal burns and abrasions may look like burns.. Which only adds to the hmmmmm theory.......
    Great points, Agatha_C! Also... Injuries inflicted right before death may look very different than they would if more time had lapsed before the injury and the time of death. I know some burns take a while to blister. Also, some abrasions when they are very fresh look more like burns when they first happen.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KariKae View Post
    Having been around the child pageant scene for many years, I would be surprised if Patsy didn't have a professional accompany her to the pageants to do JB's hair. Most serious pageant moms do not do their child's hair by themself. Still she could have owned one for herself.

    I believe the coroner described the injury as an "abrasion". Would a burn (or even an abrasion for that matter) still be red after death?
    I'd love to hear more of your insights about the pageant scene! Thanks for posting. I thought I read somewhere that PR's mom said PR did JB's hair. Anyone else remember the source of that? At any rate, you can tell from JB's family photos her mom did curl her hair sometimes. You make a really good point and it is entirely possible that if a curling iron was used against JB...that it was hot from PR doing her own hair. It has also been reported PR was the one who DYED JB's hair. I've wondered when she did that last because the autopsy photos look like the hair is rather freshly bleached. There isn't any grow-out at the nape of the neck.

    Hope to hear more of your insights! Thanks!

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