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View Poll Results: Did Patsy lie about the Bloomingdale’s panties?

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    157 77.34%
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  1. #1
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    The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

    • At least one package of size 12-14, “Days of the week,” underwear was purchased by PR at Bloomingdale’s during a trip to New York in November 1996.These were to be a gift for PR’s niece Jenny Davis.Jenny is described by JR as follows:
    Q. Do you recall approximately how big she was in 1996? I know it is a tough question.
    A. She's either a junior or a senior in high school now. And she's fairly stocky.
    John Ramsey, 2000 interview

    • Jenny was 11 or 12 years old in late 1996, PR’s description below:
    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time, how old was Jenny?
    A. I don't know. Probably -- I don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but I don't know exactly how old she was. Q. Would these panties, size wise, be more appropriate for -- is she an older girl?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And I assume a larger girl?
    A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a young woman, but then she was a little girl.
    Q. How old is she now?
    A. She is now 15, I believe.
    Q. So she would have been about 12 or somewhere --
    A. 11.
    Q. -- 11, 12?
    A. Yeah.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • The “Wednesday” panty from the set of size 12-14 Bloomingdale’s panties was what was found on the body of JBR when they examined her at the autopsy.There is no question, whatsoever, that she was wearing those particular panties. The evidence is as follows:
    (Note: DAXIS = John Mark Karr)
    This warrant for arrest is issued upon affidavit sworn to and affirmed before this court and relating facts sufficient to establish probable cause that the above-named offense has been committed and probable cause that the person named in ths warrant committed that offense.

    Repeatedly throughout ths telephone conversation DAXIS referred to the underwear worn by JonBenet as "her knickers".
    DAXIS advised Michael Tracey that he removed the "knickers" from JonBenet and took the item with him after he left the Ramsey residence by way of the same point that he entered into the home. DAXIS added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by DAXIS was several sizes too large for JonBenet. DAXIS mentioned that the oversized underwear also bore the day of "Wednesday". It should be noted that at the time of discovery JonBenet Ramsey at the lower level of her residence, she was in fact attired in light colored pajamas and oversized underwear designed for a twelve to fourteen year old female. The underwear bore the day name of "Wednesday". The telephone call between Michael Tracey and DAXIS was recorded by way of an audiocassette-recording device
    Warrant for Arrest upon Affidavit, August 15, 2006 (re: John Mark Karr)

    Q. JonBenet was found wearing the Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your understanding is correct, that is a fact, you can accept that as a fact, when she was found murdered. Those underpants do not fit her. Were you aware of that?
    MR. WOOD: Are you stating that as a matter of fact --
    MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a matter --
    MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old child?
    MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as a matter of fact.



    Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
    A. I have become aware of that, yes.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • There is no doubt that Patsy bought at least one package of size 12 – 14, “Days of the week” underwear at Bloomingdale’s in November, 1996.
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start with what - I will make it very simple for you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you in possession of or what do you know about the underwear that your daughter was wearing at the time she was found murdered?
    A. I have heard that she had on a pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
    Q. The underwear that she was wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you know where they come from as far as what store?
    A. Bloomingdale’s in New York.
    Q. Who purchased those?
    A. I did.
    Q. Do you recall when you purchased them?
    A. It was, I think, November of '96.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • Patsy claimed that it was JonBenet’s idea to purchase them:
    Q. Was it something that was selected by JonBenet?
    A. I believe so.
    Q. Was it your intention, when you purchased those, for those to be for her, not for some third party as a gift?
    A. I bought some things that were gifts and some things for her. So I don't --
    Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is your best recollection that the purchase of the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the week, was something that you bought for her, whether it was just I am buying underwear for my kids or these are special, here's a present, that doesn't matter, but it was your intention that she would wear those?
    A. Well, I think that I bought a package of the -- they came in a package of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I think I bought a package to give to my niece.
    Q. Which niece was that?
    A. Jenny Davis.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • PR claimed that she was going to give them as part of a gift to Jenny, but for somehow ended up keeping them for JBR instead:
    MS. HARMER: I guess I am not clear on, you bought the panties to give to Jenny.
    THE WITNESS: Right.
    MS. HARMER: And they ended up in JonBenet's bathroom?
    A. Right.
    Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm sorry. Do you recall making a decision then not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet express an interest in them; therefore, you didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
    A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I think I bought them with the intention of sending them in a package of Christmas things to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that together, so I just put them in her, her panty drawer. So they were free game.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • According to PR, JBR opened the package and put them on:
    Q. Okay. What we are trying to understand is whether -- we are trying to understand why she is wearing such a large pair of underpants. We are hoping you can help us if you have a recollection of it.
    A. I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • PR would never admit to ever dressing her in the large panties.
    MS. HARMER: But you specifically remember her putting on the bigger pair?
    And I am not saying --
    THE WITNESS: They were just in her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all of her clean panties in a drawer and she can help herself to whatever is in there.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • PR further claimed that the size difference was minimal, and had no problem with JBR wearing the oversized panties:
    Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it was, if it had caught your attention or came to your attention, do you think you might have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't fit, put something on that fits, that is inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
    had come to your attention –
    A. Well, obviously we, you know, the package had been opened, we made the decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and use them because, you know, we weren't going to give them to Jenny after all, I guess, so. I mean, if you have ever seen these little panties, there is not too much difference in the size. So, you know, I'm sure even if they were a little bit big, they were special because we got them up there, she wanted to wear them, and they didn't fall down around her ankles, that was fine with me.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • Despite the fact that only size 4-6 panties were found in JBR’s panty drawer, PR claimed that JBR normally would wear size 8-10.
    Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
    A. I have become aware of that, yes.
    Q. And how did you become aware of that?
    A. Something I read, I am sure.
    Q. And I will just state a fact here. I mean, there were 15 pairs of panties taken out of, by the police, out of JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is that where she kept -
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Q. -- where you were describing that they were just put in that drawer?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Okay. And every one of those was either a size four or a size six. Okay?
    Would that have been about the size pair of panties that she wore when she was six years old?
    A. I would say more like six to eight. There were probably some in there that were too small.
    Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
    A. Not typically, no.
    MR. KANE: Okay.
    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you understand the reason we are asking this, we want to make sure that this intruder did not bring these panties with him, this was something --
    A. Right.
    Q. - that was in the house.
    A. Yes.
    Q. And we are clear that, as far as you know, that is something that was in this house?
    A. Yes.
    Q. -- that belonged to your daughter, these panties?
    A. Correct.
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • PR also downplayed the difference in size between Jenny and JonBenet.
    Q. Was it something that, the fact that she is wearing these underpants designed for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and I will give you a minute to think about it because I know it is tough to try to pin down a couple of months of casual conversation -- do you recall ever having any conversations with her concerning the fact that she is wearing underwear that is just too large for her?
    A. No.
    Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it was, if it had caught your attention or came to your attention, do you think you might have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't fit, put something on that fits, that is inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
    had come to your attention –
    A. Well, obviously we, you know, the package had been opened, we made the decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and use them because, you know, we weren't going to give them to Jenny after all, I guess, so. I mean, if you have ever seen these little panties, there is not too much difference in the size. So, you know, I'm sure even if they were a little bit big, they were special because we got them up there, she wanted to wear them, and they didn't fall down around her ankles, that was fine with me.
    MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see if they fell down around her ankles or not?
    THE WITNESS: No.



    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time, how old was Jenny?
    A. I don't know. Probably -- I don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but I don't know exactly how old she was.
    Q. Would these panties, size wise, be more appropriate for -- is she an older girl?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And I assume a larger girl?
    A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a young woman, but then she was a little girl.
    Q. How old is she now?
    A. She is now 15 , I believe.
    Q. So she would have been about 12 or somewhere --
    A. 11.
    Q. – 11, 12 ?
    A. Yeah.
    Q. And based on the, I guess, dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about, these would have been a size appropriate for her?
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

    • Is PR telling the truth, or was she caught in a lie? Is the size difference minor as PR seems to suggest?
    The physical differences between JonBenet and Jenny would be as follows, (based on averages from various sites, and autopsy information)



    Jenny would have stood at least 10 inches taller that JBR, weighed at least 40 pounds more and have hips that were about 6 inches larger.
    These are very significant differences and it’s obvious that clothing of any sort for one would be clearly inappropriate for the other.

    In children’s sizes we are going from small to large:


    http://www.costumemaniacs.com/cm/sizinginfo.aspx

    Over at Forums For Justice, the poster Jayelles purchased from Bloomingdale’s an identical pair of size 4-6 “Days of the week” panties and photographed them alongside a pair of 12-14 panties.
    The disparity in size is striking.
    My wife purchased size 6, 12 and 14 children’s underwear, and I photographed them.
    The brand is Hanes and the difference is similarly striking.

    According to Jayelles, her measurements of the Bloomingdale’s panties are:
    Size 4/6 - measure 8.5 inches from waistband to crotch and waistband is just under 17 inches unstretched.

    Size 12/14 - measure 12 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 22 inches unstretched.

    My measurements of the Hanes panties, which are single sized and not range sized as the Bloomingdale’s panties are:

    Size 6 - measure 8.75 inches from waistband to crotch and waistband is 17 inches unstretched

    Size 12- measure 11.75 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 22 inches unstretched.

    Size 14 - measure 12.25 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband is 23 inches unstretched.

    The green/blue Hanes panties are size 6
    The orange/purple Hanes panties are size 12
    The solid blue Hanes panties are size 14













    http://www.nextdirectory.eu/help/sgchildren.asp


    I feel that this confirms the sizing that Jayelles found (taking into consideration the difference in brand and sizing convention.)
    For those that do not believe that this is accurate, I would encourage them to purchase these sizes and see for themselves. Seeing is believing.


    PR lied at least three times during the course of questioning regarding the oversized panties.
    • She tried to say that Jenny was a “little girl” and imply that her panty size would not be terribly dissimilar to JonBenet.
    • She tried to say that she commonly bought size 8-10 panties for JBR, thereby making the size 12 – 14 panties seem less unusual
    • She tried to say that the size 12 – 14 panties were only “a little bit big”
    Additionally, I don’t believe that JonBenet picked out and wore these panties on Christmas day as PR suggested, nor do I believe that PR had any plans for those panties other than giving them to her niece. I believe that the panties were wrapped as a gift, but something happened which changed those plans, something which necessitated removing the Wednesday panties from the package in which they were wrapped and redressing JBR in them.

    Finally, for those who have not seen these photos based on a homemade model of the daughter of Jayelles who was age 6 at the time, I will post them here, but it’s well worth looking at the following threads over at Forums For Justice.
    [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7128"]Girls Size 12-14 "Bloomies" Modeled On a Six-Year-Old Like JonBenet - Forums For Justice[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107"]The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet - Forums For Justice[/ame]


    These are the physical characteristics of the daughter of Jayelles:
    Height 47 inches (same as Jonbenet)
    Weight 46 lbs (1lb heavier than Jonbenet)
    Chest - 22 inches
    Waist - 20 inches
    Hips - 23 inches
    Thigh - 13 inches


    Last edited by cynic; 01-03-2011 at 05:57 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Cynic.....

    Most excellent post.... I stand in awe....
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

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    Sorry for jumping in but has it been said that JBR wore diapers to bed for the bed-wetting problem? I can see the size 12 being useful if she did wear diapers. Would there be any reason PR wouldn't admit to the use of diapers? Excuse me if this question has already been asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    .
    A most excellent post, cynic. You very logically laid it all out in an easy to follow progression. I am very impressed.
    .

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    I think Cynic has dispelled that there were any inaccuracies as well as the fact that undies are undies and that a size 12 or 14 is in no way appropriate for a six year old! Brilliant Cynic!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Sorry for jumping in but has it been said that JBR wore diapers to bed for the bed-wetting problem? I can see the size 12 being useful if she did wear diapers. Would there be any reason PR wouldn't admit to the use of diapers? Excuse me if this question has already been asked.
    It has been brought up, but not recently.
    Patsy insisted in two interviews that, while JBR continued to have bed wetting issues, she was trying not to use Pull-ups, instead utilizing a plastic sheet on the bed:

    PR: If I just didn’t take her to the potty and make her go to the potty before bedtime, she very likely would wet the bed.
    TT: Ok. You have any idea about, has this been going on for how long? Any time that she broken and didn’t have any bed wetting problems and then started back up or anything like that.
    PR: No, no, she just, I mean I’ve had her in pull-ups until very recently. I kind of thought it might be better, I mean pull-ups and those pamper things are so absorbent, that you can’t you know, the child can’t feel if they’re wet or not. So I thought well it might just be better if she felt wet than being…
    Patsy Ramsey, 1997 interview

    TOM HANEY: In the video that the police took walking through, which was taken some time later, there are -- there are packages of Pull-ups.
    PATSY RAMSEY: They would be in there, yeah.
    TOM HANEY: All right. They are partially hanging out in the video?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yup.
    TOM HANEY: Would those be the Pull-ups that you would normally put on JonBenet?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TOM HANEY: Do you recall the last time you put those on her?
    PATSY RAMSEY: It hadn't been for quite some time, but I remember buying them to take a few with us on the cruise, thinking that maybe a combination it would be like on the cruise, and I didn't want her to spoil the mattress. So I bought a new package, and probably had taken some out and put them in the suitcase I was packing. But she hadn't really worn them, you know, very much recently.
    TOM HANEY: Do you recall prior when the last time you put Pull-ups on her?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    Patsy Ramsey, 1998 interview

    Also:

    In the summer of 96, JonBenét started wearing those diaper-type underpants—Pull-Ups. She even wore them to bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenét started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn’t going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I’d come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenét’s white blanket would already be in the dryer. The Ramseys had two washer-dryers—one in the basement and a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenét’s room.
    Perfect Murder Perfect Town, page 198


    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Mrs. Ramsey, prior to going to the Whites, did you see JonBenet in panties? In other words, were you at any point, prior to going to the Whites, in the process of her getting dressed, did you ever see if she was wearing panties?
    A. I mean, I just probably didn't notice. I would, she must have had them on
    or I would have certainly noticed if she didn't have any on.
    Q. When you came home and you got her ready for bed, did you notice if she was
    wearing panties? When you changed her out of the black velvet --
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Q. - type pants --
    A. Right.
    Q. -- and into the long underwear pants --
    A. Uh-huh, right.
    Q. -- the White ones, did you notice if she had a pair of panties on?
    A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.
    Q. Why do you remember that? I mean, what do you remember? I just want to know what you remember about that.
    A. Well, I took the jeans off and put the long leggies on.
    Q. And you noticed that she had panties on in that process?
    A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    Q. You have to answer yes or no.
    A. Well, I noticed -- I mean, nothing was unusual. I mean, if she hadn't had panties on, it would have been unusual. So --
    Q. So there was nothing unusual there?
    A. Correct.
    Q. When you actually removed those -- you have -- they are black velvet pants?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And did the panties come down with them when you removed those pants, if you remember?
    A. I don't remember.
    Q. If they had, would you remember, or is that too long ago?
    A. It has been a long time.
    Q. But did you change -- did you put a fresh pair of panties on her at that point when you were getting her ready for bed?
    A. No.
    Patsy Ramsey, 2000 interview
    Last edited by cynic; 01-03-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Sorry for jumping in but has it been said that JBR wore diapers to bed for the bed-wetting problem? I can see the size 12 being useful if she did wear diapers. Would there be any reason PR wouldn't admit to the use of diapers? Excuse me if this question has already been asked.
    Patsy had stopped putting Pull-Ups (diapers) on JB and just changed the sheets when JB wet the bed. The housekeeper said that the bed was wet nearly every day. Putting panties over diapers, especially for sleeping, seems pretty unnecessary. Patsy had no need to deny the diapers- they were THERE in a closet. JB had been fully potty trained for three years, and then regressed to wetting and soiling, not just her bed, but her clothes.
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    JonBenet should have been wearing size 8 panties, and if they came in 8-10 then that is what she should have had in her panty drawer. I can believe that the size 12-14 weren't so much bigger that they wouldn't fall down around her ankles. They might bunch up in tight knit pants or jeans and they might ride up in pants though unless they shrunk in the wash. Littler girls still have some chubbiness about them where normal size 11-12 year olds don't. What bothers me more than Patsy throwing larger panties in the drawer for use is the fact that LE didn't find any size 8 panties if this is correct? Wonder if there are many missing panties besides the rest of the day of the week ones. The size 12's weren't appropriate for JonBenet to be wearing though, but if a mom doesn't really clean the house or throw out little size 4's then it really may not be that big a deal or suprise.
    Last edited by txsvicki; 01-04-2011 at 12:48 AM.

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    well, the size 12-14, would be too big for an average sized 6 year old, & Jon Benet looked pretty average. IDK why, but a lot of this case seems to revolve around wetting, soiling, panties, vaginal trauma, bedwetting, clean up...

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    this would be the perfect night for a pullup since they had to get up so early. No time for washing sheets. PR says she bought a new box for the cruise, and packed some. She never admits to putting a pullup on her that night though. Were all the pullups accounted for? They should have all been there according to the statements.
    why wouldnt she use a pull up that night?


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    Quote Originally Posted by RTC View Post
    this would be the perfect night for a pullup since they had to get up so early. No time for washing sheets. PR says she bought a new box for the cruise, and packed some. She never admits to putting a pullup on her that night though. Were all the pullups accounted for? They should have all been there according to the statements.
    why wouldnt she use a pull up that night?
    Excellent question, RTC. I would think that PR had actually dressed JB for the plane trip and the Pullup may not have fit under her clothes. This could explain why the red turtleneck was balled up as well. It could have easily gotten dirty if JB had an "accident". This is the only way that I believe Patsy was the lone killer.
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    what was burke wearing that morning? did he have any travel clothes laid out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTC View Post
    what was burke wearing that morning? did he have any travel clothes laid out?
    I've never seen any reports of what BR was wearing. I would love to know, anyone here know where we could find this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Sorry for jumping in but has it been said that JBR wore diapers to bed for the bed-wetting problem? I can see the size 12 being useful if she did wear diapers. Would there be any reason PR wouldn't admit to the use of diapers? Excuse me if this question has already been asked.
    I do also wonder if the size 12 would make a better fit over the diapers. Then it could be that JBR was killed in the bathroom just before she was about the be changed into the diapers. Then when she was killed Patsy no longer put on the diapers but still wanted to cover her child so she just grabs the oversized panties. That to me at least seems like a good reason why JBR was wearing such oversized panties. All JMO of course.

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    If Patsy had said that, I would think it could be true, but she specifically said she stopped putting them on JonBenet as she felt that with pull ups on, she wouldn't be able to feel she was wet. My grandson is 5 and wears pull ups at night, if we are on a long car trip, if we go anywhere in the car he might fall asleep, actually. He still occasionally has accidents at night. Pull ups were a bit bulky then,my nephew wore them. There would be no way that a size 12 or 14 pant could comfortably fit on top and under clothes. A child would need one size larger is all. Since the largest size in JB's drawer was a 6, she would have needed 8's. Why someone would do that and add more bulk under clothes doesn't make much sense to me however.
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