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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
    Take your time... and thank you for so much useful information!

    I have two questions for when you get back.

    1)How would snow on the ground interfer with tracking and would it? I initially meant a person walking over already fallen snow but perhaps both that way and if snow had recently fallen on a trail.

    2)I would like to just clarify I understand the following in general terms. A handler would be able to determine an estimated time a person was last at a location based on the length of a trail and how long it took the dog to track it? Am I understanding correctly?

    thank you soooo much! And WhyA' thank you for your posting reiterating this thread is for general rather than case specific questions and answers.
    Snow is going to interfere in a variety of ways, the largest one being that most dogs don't train in it. Scent does different things in different conditions and snow is one of those. If a person goes missing in a snow covered area I would bring in avalanche dogs, even if there was no avalanche, make sense? They're capable of pretty much anything, if they've been exposed to it and trained in it.

    As to the second question.... I personally would not feel comfortable putting a "time stamp" on a trail. I could give a generalized idea, like this trail is several days old, or just hours, or weeks, but that's all I would be willing to say. Again, no two trails are the same, the behavior of the person, their condition, the terrain, the weather, and so on all make up for the condition of the trail.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahoneys07 View Post
    I posted a question so to speak in the regular Hailey thread so I am going to ask it here

    I know the dogs brough in early on have been basically discounted but I was wondering if say a person walk a certain route everyday would this cause a trail to be stronger say 4 days in.??

    For example Hailey went to her dads everyday usually..I am sure she took the same route each time ..so would this trail appear to be stronger after 4 days because she frequently walked it?
    The dogs should follow the freshest scent, however it is not uncommon in my experience for dogs to have difficulty at times if it is an area where the person walks everyday and has done so for a long time. Basically their scent is everyone, fresh trails, older ones, scent up against the brush, you name it.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9Snoop View Post
    I agree with SarX but it's one of those weird things. My dogs are trained to indicate on blood but on my landfill search they did not indicate on the myriad of used feminine products that was strewn everywhere which was a concern of LE and myself. Its almost like the dog(s) considered them to be part of that "natural" enviroment (my opinion, not scientifically proven) so not unordinary or noteworthy. But in another case at a home search, they hit on some walls, kitchen sink, mop, and other items that the CSI techs later confirmed contained victim blood. Its almost like at some level, based on the search location, the dog is making a decision of "this" belongs here, "that" does not.

    Disclaimer: the above is strictly my own opinion and has not been scientifically proven and based entirely on my own direct observations.
    Question just for clarification on type of dog used: what kind of human remains are your dogs trained on? Blood ages similar to human remains. Old blood is one thing- fresh another. And then it ages after it remains. HRD dogs have specializations in this; so the validity of a landfill-type search will depend on this training as well.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9Snoop View Post
    I agree with SarX but it's one of those weird things. My dogs are trained to indicate on blood but on my landfill search they did not indicate on the myriad of used feminine products that was strewn everywhere which was a concern of LE and myself. Its almost like the dog(s) considered them to be part of that "natural" enviroment (my opinion, not scientifically proven) so not unordinary or noteworthy. But in another case at a home search, they hit on some walls, kitchen sink, mop, and other items that the CSI techs later confirmed contained victim blood. Its almost like at some level, based on the search location, the dog is making a decision of "this" belongs here, "that" does not.

    Disclaimer: the above is strictly my own opinion and has not been scientifically proven and based entirely on my own direct observations.

    BBM: trying to stick to Hailey's case, but this bothers me a bit.
    Well trained HRD dogs are trained to hit on specifically aged remians (i.e-blood.)
    Blood (human or otherwise) can occur anywhere and everywhere. Cut a finger peeling a potato in the sink and then call in an HRD dog? With a properly trained dog, trained to discern fresh vs aged HRD scent...they should hit.
    Cut a finger peeling a potato in the sink and then abandon the house for 6 months or 6 years...then call in an aged scent HRD and get a hit- two totally different things.

    HRD is not that different from scent trailing or tracking. It all ages, and it all changes according to a dogs' nose.

    That's why it's so important to know the training of the dogs used, and when the HRD scent might have begun. Kwim?

    This is the problem with Hailey's timeline, IMO. Among many.

  5. #20
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    I think this is going to throw people into a state of confusion. Are you saying that an HRD dog is going to hit on every bandaid, tampon, pad, knee rub on the sheet, hangnail that bled, bloody nose tissue, etc?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    I think this is going to throw people into a state of confusion. Are you saying that an HRD dog is going to hit on every bandaid, tampon, pad, knee rub on the sheet, hangnail that bled, bloody nose tissue, etc?
    No, no no! Sorry for the confusion. I'm talking about timing. How long blood or other bodily fluids have been on a scene, before a specially trained dog can hold a hit in court. Sorry- probably a response for the SAR dog thread.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    Snow is going to interfere in a variety of ways, the largest one being that most dogs don't train in it. Scent does different things in different conditions and snow is one of those. If a person goes missing in a snow covered area I would bring in avalanche dogs, even if there was no avalanche, make sense? They're capable of pretty much anything, if they've been exposed to it and trained in it.

    As to the second question.... I personally would not feel comfortable putting a "time stamp" on a trail. I could give a generalized idea, like this trail is several days old, or just hours, or weeks, but that's all I would be willing to say. Again, no two trails are the same, the behavior of the person, their condition, the terrain, the weather, and so on all make up for the condition of the trail.
    In contrast, but not in controversy to the 2nd question- I would be willing to put a time stamp (so to speak) on my own specific dogs, because I have time stamped then over and over again.

    But inevitably- there is failure there as well. No living creature performs at their best or their most knowledgable at all times. Sort of like knowing your brand new, fully protected computer should not crash. And then it does.

  8. #23
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    This thread is a great idea!

    Thanks Oriah and Sarx!

  9. #24
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    Wanted to add some further info on FEMA and SAR dogs:
    Handler and dog training and certification, and why these types of dogs and handlers are so highly regarded:
    http://www.fema.gov/emergency/usr/caninecert.shtm
    http://www.fema.gov/emergency/usr/canineready.shtm

    ETA: And here is where you can really get a good idea of how much work goes into training these dogs and handlers:
    http://www.disasterdog.org/forms/pol...CSSC_Annex.pdf
    Last edited by Oriah; 01-28-2011 at 11:14 AM.

  10. #25
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    Here's a general list broken down by state of what states have FEMA dogs
    updated January 2011
    http://www.disasterdog.org/forms/ros...er_Jan2011.pdf


  11. #26
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    To get a true grasp on FEMA standards, I think the stats here are also good to see.
    http://www.disasterdog.org/forms/CanineStats2010.pdf

  12. #27
    What is the "40 degree rule" when it comes to cadaver dogs as they are searching?

  13. #28
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    sarx is it normal to have the me come out on a search?

    as there is a member of the me out with the kyron search today!

    ((link in main thread))

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nursebeeme View Post
    sarx is it normal to have the me come out on a search?

    as there is a member of the me out with the kyron search today!

    ((link in main thread))
    No, I wouldn't call it normal.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimster View Post
    What is the "40 degree rule" when it comes to cadaver dogs as they are searching?
    You know, this is a tough one for me. Again, this goes back to training. Scent behavior changes at various temps. But, to say a dog can't work in temps below 40 degrees is inaccurate. They can't work in it because they don't train in it. Think of avalanche dogs... They work in temps WAY colder than that. It's good to know the limits of your training, but it is not fair to make a blanket statement either. I know of some dogs/handlers that have gone in worked in Europe in frozen tundra conditions with success, just requires a special dog and a whole lot more training. KWIM?

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