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View Poll Results: Is there evidence of undoing?

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  • Yes

    58 80.56%
  • No

    4 5.56%
  • Not sure

    10 13.89%

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    The “Undoing” of the Ramseys.

    While it may be argued that certain actions were driven by the need to eliminate or, at least, reduce evidence, I believe that what profilers have characterized as “undoing” was evident in at least the following aspects of the crime scene.
    Cleaning (Pelvic area wiped down)
    Covering (Wrapped in a blanket)
    Comforting (Nightgown, doll)
    Redressing (New (oversized) underwear, long johns pulled up)

    (The crime also included several elements of staging.)
    • What is undoing?
    Another concept sometimes encountered in crime scene analysis is undoing. Undoing is a behavioral pattern found at the scene in which the offender tried to psychologically “undo” the crime. For example, a distraught or emotionally upset offender, who kills the victim, may try to undo his or her actions by placing the body in bed, gently placing the head on a pillow, and neatly covering the body with blankets. Or he or she may place the victim upright in a chair, trying desperately to return the victim to a natural-looking state.
    Introduction to Forensic Psychology: Research and Application, Curt R. Bartol, Anne M. Bartol, page 87

    Undoing represents a form of personation with more obvious meaning. Undoing frequently occurs at the crime scene when there is close association between the offender and the victim or when the victim represents someone of significance to the offender.

    The following case exemplifies undoing. A son stabbed his mother to death during a fierce argument. After calming down, the son realized the full impact of his actions. First, he changed the victim’s bloodied shirt and then placed her body on the couch with her head on a pillow. He covered her with a blanket and folded her hands over her chest so she appeared to be sleeping peacefully. This behavior indicated his remorse by attempting to emotionally undo the murder. Other forms of undoing may include the offender’s washing up, cleaning the body, covering the victim’s face, or completely covering the body. The offender engages in these activities not because he is attempting to hide the victim but because he may be feeling some degree of remorse.
    • What is staging?
    Staging is when someone purposely alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of police. there are two reasons why someone employs staging, to redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim's or victim's family.
    When a crime is staged, the responsible person is not someone who just happens upon the victim. It is usually someone who had some kind of association or relationship whth the victim. This offender will further attempt to steer the investigation away from him by his conduct when in contact with law enforcement. Thus, investigators should never eliminate a suspect solely on the grounds of that person’s overly cooperative or distraught behavior.
    A double homicide case that received national publicity involved Susan Smith, the mother of Alex and Michael, who purposely let her car, with her two small sons inside, roll into Joh D. Long Lake in Union, South Carolina. Smith first went to a nearby home where she banged on the door, screaming, “He’s got my kids and he’s got my car. A black man has got my kids and my car.” The home owners called 911. Smith told police that she was stopped at a red light when a black man jumped in her car and told her to drive. Eventually Smith said the man told her to her out of the car and he proceeded to drive off with her children.
    Smith attempted to steer the investigation away from her by creating a false scenario to detract police. She was interviewed on many occasions, and police began to catch the inconsistencies in her story. In addition, the manner in which she spoke of her children’s disappearances made police question her as a potential suspect. During numerous interviews . Smith spoke about her sons in the past tense; at one point she said, “No man would ever make me hurt my children.” This statement told police that she believed her children were not alive. Police began to focus the investigation on Smith, who ultimately confessed during an interview with an investigator.
    The second reason for staging is to protect the victim's family and is employed most frequently with rape-murder crimes or autoerotic fatalities. The offender of a sexual homicide frequently leaves the victim in a degrading position.
    One can hardly fault a family member’s protective staging behavior , but the investigator needs to obtain an accurate description of the body’s condition when found and exactly what that person did to alter the crime scene.
    This type of staging is also prevalent with autoerotic fatalities. The victim may be removed from the apparatus that caused death (for example, cut down from a noose or device suspending the body). In many cases, the victim wears a mask or costume. The costume often involves cross-dressing, so not only does the person discovering the body have to endure the shock of finding the victim dead, but also the shock of finding the victim in female dress. To prevent further damage to the victim’s or family’s reputation or to protect other family members , the person discovering the body may redress the victim in men’s clothing or dress the nude body. He or she will often stage the accident to look like a suicide, perhaps writing a suicide note. This person may even go as far as staging the scene to appear as a homicide. Nevertheless, scrutiny of forensics, crime scene dynamics, and victimology probably will reveal the true circumstances surrounding death. Evidence of previous autoerotic activities (bondage literature, adult “toys,” eyebolts in the ceiling, worn spots from rope on beams) in the victim’s home also will help determine if an autoerotic activity caused death.

    Finally, the investigator should discern whether a crime scene is truly disorganized or whether the offender staged it to appear careless and haphazard. This determination not only helps direct the analysis to the underlying motive but also helps to shape the offender profile. However, the recognition of staging especially with a shrewd offender can be difficult. The investigator must scrutinize all factors of the crime if there is reason to believe it has been staged. Forensics, victimology and minute crime scene details become critical to the detection of staging.
    • More on staging and undoing:
    Crime Scene Red Flags

    An offender who stages a crime scene usually makes mistakes because he stages it to look the way he thinks a crime scene should look. While doing this, the offender experiences a great deal of stress and don’t not have time to fit all the pieces together logically. Inconsistencies will begin appearing at the crime scene with forensics and with the overall picture of the offense. These contradictions will often serve as the red flags of staging and prevent misguidance of the investigation.

    Investigators often will find forensic discrepancies when a subject stages a rape/murder. The offender frequently positions the victim to imply sexual assault has occurred. an offender who has a close relationship with the victim will often only partially remove the victim’s clothing (for example, pants pulled down, shirt or dress pulled up). He rarely leaves the victim nude.

    With a staged sexual assault, there is usually no evidence of any sexual activity and an absence of seminal fluids in the body orifices.
    An investigator who suspects a staged crime scene should look for other signs of close offender association with the victim, such as washing up or any other indications of undoing.
    Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 32 - 39

    Spontaneous Domestic Homicide:
    The crime scene reflects disorder and the impetuous nature of the killing. The weapon will be one of opportunity, often obtained and left at the scene. There is no forced entry and no sign of theft. The crime scene may also reflect an escalation of violence – for example, the confrontation starts as an argument, intensifies into hitting or throwing things, and culminates in the victim’s death.
    There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer’s way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender’s washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.
    The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim-offender relationship The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement of emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.
    Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 155 - 156

    John Douglas: When parents kill, there’s generally a softening of the crime scene. Where they take a blanket, cover up the child, roll the child over, face down or something like that
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14429987/

    If a child’s body is found, there’s a very good chance we’ll figure out who did it. Parents aren’t usually as detached about disposing of their children’s bodies as strangers are – they may wrap the body in plastic and bury it someplace significant to them. If they feel remorse over the murder, they may try to lead investigators in the right direction so the body wil be found and buried in a proper ceremony.
    Journey Into Darkness, John Douglas, page 148

    "The child was found buried in the woods in his snowsuit, wrapped in a blanket, then completely covered with a thick plastic bag. A kidnapper or child molester would not have taken this much care to make him warm and "comfortable," or to try to shelter the body from the elements. While many murder scenes show obvious and prolonged rage, and dump sites often show contempt and hostility, the hallmarks of this burial were love and guilt."
    Mindhunter, John Douglas, page 287

    Eventually the mother confirmed the profilers’ estimate of what had happened, and admitted to having killed her own child and trying to cover up the crime with a mock kidnapping. She took the police to the site where the body had been left. Here there was no evidence of staging at all, with the little girl buried deep in secluded woodland, wrapped in thick warm garments and a blanket, and covered with a bag to deter predators. Had the body been found for any other reason, the care taken over the disposal of the child’s remains would have tended to focus attention on the mother, for the combination of love and guilt shown so clearly, rather than the indifference to be expected from real kidnappers.
    Profiling, the psychology of catching killers, David Owen, page 89
    • Now that we know what undoing is, do we see it in the JonBenet case?
    Earlier, when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenét’s cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 29

    LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned the fact that the blanket had been wrapped around her almost like, what did you describe it as?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked very, like someone had very carefully placed her on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her to keep her warm.
    John Ramsey interview, June 1998

    MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you went inside to that room, you described the blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it
    like –
    RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.
    MIKE KANE: Okay.
    JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under her completely. It was brought up and folded over like that.
    MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.
    John Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

    Q. JonBenet was found wearing the Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your understanding is correct, that is a fact, you can accept that as a fact, when she was found murdered. Those underpants do not fit her. Were you aware of that?
    MR. WOOD: Are you stating that as a matter of fact --
    MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a matter --
    MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old child?
    MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as a matter of fact.

    Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
    A. I have become aware of that, yes.
    Patsy Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying, I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture, big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears –
    PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under there.
    Patsy Ramsey interview, June 1998

    In the wine cellar, Everett discovered on the white blanket the piece of tape Fleet White had handled. Next to the blanket was a child-size pink nightgown with the word Barbie embossed on it.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 21

    Lee suggested that the cellar room in which the body was found was not necessarily the location of the primary attack. He also wondered about the presence of the pink nightgown discovered near the victim. A kidnapper, he ventured, probably would not bring a victim’s favorite piece of clothing along with a dead body.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 166

    On the other hand, the killer cared about the victim and wanted her found. He or she didn’t want JonBenét outside in the dead of winter in the middle of the night. The child had been wrapped in a white blanket, her Barbie nightgown found lying next to her. Such caring and solicitude were not usually associated with a malevolent criminal.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 498

    The FBI profile said that parents typically found it harder to dispose of a child’s body than an intruder would. Listening to the presentation, one investigator theorized that the nightgown might have been bundled up together with the blanket, a gesture not unlike burying the child with her favorite stuffed animal.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 662

    The coroner told the police that the blood smears on the skin and the fibers found in the folds of the labia indicated that the child’s pubic area had been wiped with a cloth. The blood smears also contained traces of fibers.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 57

    Since the autopsy, the police had thought there was semen on JonBenét’s upper thighs. Then, on January 15, the CBI came back with the analysis. The substance thought to be semen was in fact smeared blood. There was no semen. JonBenét’s body had been wiped clean, leaving a residue that was visible under the flourescent light at the autopsy.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 172

    It appeared that the vaginal area had been wiped, and small dark fibers were collected from her pubic region.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 46

    Ressler said he doesn't believe the killer intended to kill the child and feels great remorse about the death. The wiping is a further indication that the killer is not a serial killer or a "career" child molester or predator, Ressler said last night.
    http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon2.htm
    Last edited by cynic; 01-27-2011 at 08:04 PM.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,570
    I ran across this in my research for this thread, and while it has little to do with undoing, I thought it did provide insight into some of the Ramseys’ actions - notably, the urge to "move on."

    We find this often happens with people who are involved with the killing of a family member. That’s one of the reasons we look back at the family when we see something like this. We look at the husband, the parents – whoever the victim had a close relationship with, because these people have to live day in and day out with the search, and at some point they get frustrated by it. They tire of the questioning and the wife or the husband or whoever constantly looking for the missing person and spending their entire lives doing this. They want to move on. That kid’s dead, I want to forget about it. I want to start doing stuff. I don’t want to sit here and dwell on this.
    The killer will bring the body back and dump it in a location where it will be found and they can get that part over with. There’s the body. We found her. Now can we move on? Of course, they don’t think ahead to the next part, which is that the authorities will actually investigate the homicide. The perpetrator doesn’t think that far ahead.
    My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths, Pat Brown
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    While it may be argued that certain actions were driven by the need to eliminate or, at least, reduce evidence, I believe that what profilers have characterized as “undoing” was evident in at least the following aspects of the crime scene.
    Cleaning (Pelvic area wiped down)
    Covering (Wrapped in a blanket)
    Comforting (Nightgown, doll)
    Redressing (New (oversized) underwear, long johns pulled up)

    (The crime also included several elements of staging.)
    • What is undoing?
    Another concept sometimes encountered in crime scene analysis is undoing. Undoing is a behavioral pattern found at the scene in which the offender tried to psychologically “undo” the crime. For example, a distraught or emotionally upset offender, who kills the victim, may try to undo his or her actions by placing the body in bed, gently placing the head on a pillow, and neatly covering the body with blankets. Or he or she may place the victim upright in a chair, trying desperately to return the victim to a natural-looking state.
    Introduction to Forensic Psychology: Research and Application, Curt R. Bartol, Anne M. Bartol, page 87

    Undoing represents a form of personation with more obvious meaning. Undoing frequently occurs at the crime scene when there is close association between the offender and the victim or when the victim represents someone of significance to the offender.

    The following case exemplifies undoing. A son stabbed his mother to death during a fierce argument. After calming down, the son realized the full impact of his actions. First, he changed the victim’s bloodied shirt and then placed her body on the couch with her head on a pillow. He covered her with a blanket and folded her hands over her chest so she appeared to be sleeping peacefully. This behavior indicated his remorse by attempting to emotionally undo the murder. Other forms of undoing may include the offender’s washing up, cleaning the body, covering the victim’s face, or completely covering the body. The offender engages in these activities not because he is attempting to hide the victim but because he may be feeling some degree of remorse.
    • What is staging?
    Staging is when someone purposely alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of police. there are two reasons why someone employs staging, to redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim's or victim's family.
    When a crime is staged, the responsible person is not someone who just happens upon the victim. It is usually someone who had some kind of association or relationship whth the victim. This offender will further attempt to steer the investigation away from him by his conduct when in contact with law enforcement. Thus, investigators should never eliminate a suspect solely on the grounds of that person’s overly cooperative or distraught behavior.
    A double homicide case that received national publicity involved Susan Smith, the mother of Alex and Michael, who purposely let her car, with her two small sons inside, roll into Joh D. Long Lake in Union, South Carolina. Smith first went to a nearby home where she banged on the door, screaming, “He’s got my kids and he’s got my car. A black man has got my kids and my car.” The home owners called 911. Smith told police that she was stopped at a red light when a black man jumped in her car and told her to drive. Eventually Smith said the man told her to her out of the car and he proceeded to drive off with her children.
    Smith attempted to steer the investigation away from her by creating a false scenario to detract police. She was interviewed on many occasions, and police began to catch the inconsistencies in her story. In addition, the manner in which she spoke of her children’s disappearances made police question her as a potential suspect. During numerous interviews . Smith spoke about her sons in the past tense; at one point she said, “No man would ever make me hurt my children.” This statement told police that she believed her children were not alive. Police began to focus the investigation on Smith, who ultimately confessed during an interview with an investigator.
    The second reason for staging is to protect the victim's family and is employed most frequently with rape-murder crimes or autoerotic fatalities. The offender of a sexual homicide frequently leaves the victim in a degrading position.
    One can hardly fault a family member’s protective staging behavior , but the investigator needs to obtain an accurate description of the body’s condition when found and exactly what that person did to alter the crime scene.
    This type of staging is also prevalent with autoerotic fatalities. The victim may be removed from the apparatus that caused death (for example, cut down from a noose or device suspending the body). In many cases, the victim wears a mask or costume. The costume often involves cross-dressing, so not only does the person discovering the body have to endure the shock of finding the victim dead, but also the shock of finding the victim in female dress. To prevent further damage to the victim’s or family’s reputation or to protect other family members , the person discovering the body may redress the victim in men’s clothing or dress the nude body. He or she will often stage the accident to look like a suicide, perhaps writing a suicide note. This person may even go as far as staging the scene to appear as a homicide. Nevertheless, scrutiny of forensics, crime scene dynamics, and victimology probably will reveal the true circumstances surrounding death. Evidence of previous autoerotic activities (bondage literature, adult “toys,” eyebolts in the ceiling, worn spots from rope on beams) in the victim’s home also will help determine if an autoerotic activity caused death.

    Finally, the investigator should discern whether a crime scene is truly disorganized or whether the offender staged it to appear careless and haphazard. This determination not only helps direct the analysis to the underlying motive but also helps to shape the offender profile. However, the recognition of staging especially with a shrewd offender can be difficult. The investigator must scrutinize all factors of the crime if there is reason to believe it has been staged. Forensics, victimology and minute crime scene details become critical to the detection of staging.
    • More on staging and undoing:
    Crime Scene Red Flags

    An offender who stages a crime scene usually makes mistakes because he stages it to look the way he thinks a crime scene should look. While doing this, the offender experiences a great deal of stress and don’t not have time to fit all the pieces together logically. Inconsistencies will begin appearing at the crime scene with forensics and with the overall picture of the offense. These contradictions will often serve as the red flags of staging and prevent misguidance of the investigation.

    Investigators often will find forensic discrepancies when a subject stages a rape/murder. The offender frequently positions the victim to imply sexual assault has occurred. an offender who has a close relationship with the victim will often only partially remove the victim’s clothing (for example, pants pulled down, shirt or dress pulled up). He rarely leaves the victim nude.

    With a staged sexual assault, there is usually no evidence of any sexual activity and an absence of seminal fluids in the body orifices.
    An investigator who suspects a staged crime scene should look for other signs of close offender association with the victim, such as washing up or any other indications of undoing.
    Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 32 - 39

    Spontaneous Domestic Homicide:
    The crime scene reflects disorder and the impetuous nature of the killing. The weapon will be one of opportunity, often obtained and left at the scene. There is no forced entry and no sign of theft. The crime scene may also reflect an escalation of violence – for example, the confrontation starts as an argument, intensifies into hitting or throwing things, and culminates in the victim’s death.
    There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer’s way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender’s washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.
    The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim-offender relationship The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement of emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.
    Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 155 - 156

    John Douglas: When parents kill, there’s generally a softening of the crime scene. Where they take a blanket, cover up the child, roll the child over, face down or something like that
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14429987/

    If a child’s body is found, there’s a very good chance we’ll figure out who did it. Parents aren’t usually as detached about disposing of their children’s bodies as strangers are – they may wrap the body in plastic and bury it someplace significant to them. If they feel remorse over the murder, they may try to lead investigators in the right direction so the body wil be found and buried in a proper ceremony.
    Journey Into Darkness, John Douglas, page 148

    "The child was found buried in the woods in his snowsuit, wrapped in a blanket, then completely covered with a thick plastic bag. A kidnapper or child molester would not have taken this much care to make him warm and "comfortable," or to try to shelter the body from the elements. While many murder scenes show obvious and prolonged rage, and dump sites often show contempt and hostility, the hallmarks of this burial were love and guilt."
    Mindhunter, John Douglas, page 287

    Eventually the mother confirmed the profilers’ estimate of what had happened, and admitted to having killed her own child and trying to cover up the crime with a mock kidnapping. She took the police to the site where the body had been left. Here there was no evidence of staging at all, with the little girl buried deep in secluded woodland, wrapped in thick warm garments and a blanket, and covered with a bag to deter predators. Had the body been found for any other reason, the care taken over the disposal of the child’s remains would have tended to focus attention on the mother, for the combination of love and guilt shown so clearly, rather than the indifference to be expected from real kidnappers.
    Profiling, the psychology of catching killers, David Owen, page 89
    • Now that we know what undoing is, do we see it in the JonBenet case?
    Earlier, when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenét’s cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 29

    LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned the fact that the blanket had been wrapped around her almost like, what did you describe it as?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked very, like someone had very carefully placed her on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her to keep her warm.
    John Ramsey interview, June 1998

    MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you went inside to that room, you described the blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it
    like –
    RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.
    MIKE KANE: Okay.
    JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under her completely. It was brought up and folded over like that.
    MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.
    John Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

    Q. JonBenet was found wearing the Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your understanding is correct, that is a fact, you can accept that as a fact, when she was found murdered. Those underpants do not fit her. Were you aware of that?
    MR. WOOD: Are you stating that as a matter of fact --
    MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a matter --
    MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old child?
    MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as a matter of fact.

    Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you aware that these were the size of panties that she was wearing, and this has been publicized, it is out in the open, that they were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of that?
    A. I have become aware of that, yes.
    Patsy Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying, I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture, big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears –
    PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under there.
    Patsy Ramsey interview, June 1998

    In the wine cellar, Everett discovered on the white blanket the piece of tape Fleet White had handled. Next to the blanket was a child-size pink nightgown with the word Barbie embossed on it.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 21

    Lee suggested that the cellar room in which the body was found was not necessarily the location of the primary attack. He also wondered about the presence of the pink nightgown discovered near the victim. A kidnapper, he ventured, probably would not bring a victim’s favorite piece of clothing along with a dead body.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 166

    On the other hand, the killer cared about the victim and wanted her found. He or she didn’t want JonBenét outside in the dead of winter in the middle of the night. The child had been wrapped in a white blanket, her Barbie nightgown found lying next to her. Such caring and solicitude were not usually associated with a malevolent criminal.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 498

    The FBI profile said that parents typically found it harder to dispose of a child’s body than an intruder would. Listening to the presentation, one investigator theorized that the nightgown might have been bundled up together with the blanket, a gesture not unlike burying the child with her favorite stuffed animal.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 662

    The coroner told the police that the blood smears on the skin and the fibers found in the folds of the labia indicated that the child’s pubic area had been wiped with a cloth. The blood smears also contained traces of fibers.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 57

    Since the autopsy, the police had thought there was semen on JonBenét’s upper thighs. Then, on January 15, the CBI came back with the analysis. The substance thought to be semen was in fact smeared blood. There was no semen. JonBenét’s body had been wiped clean, leaving a residue that was visible under the flourescent light at the autopsy.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 172

    It appeared that the vaginal area had been wiped, and small dark fibers were collected from her pubic region.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 46

    Ressler said he doesn't believe the killer intended to kill the child and feels great remorse about the death. The wiping is a further indication that the killer is not a serial killer or a "career" child molester or predator, Ressler said last night.
    http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon2.htm
    Thanks cynic

    You've given me a lot to think about here. This will make me go back to where I began with this, and I need to look again at my original suspects.

    You have (unwittingly perhaps) confirmed for me that a "friendly IDI" is the most likely suspect. No one would kill (accidentally or in anger) and maintain that anger by then writing the RN, when they have already performed a certain amount of "undoing" of the murder, hence showing remorse. This, for me, eliminates the Rs completely.

    What I see is anger that began with the writing of the RN and culminated in the murder of JBR. The anger was directed against JR as well as JBR. Was this someone who was 'dissed' by both of them and who plotted revenge, but then went too far and regretted it. It was not a child molester because JBR was violated out of anger not lust.

    Anger is the key. Who wanted to make the Rs suffer and also get money they believed was owed to them? Who had this kind of anger and was familar with both JBR and JR? This narrows it down considerably.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Thanks cynic

    You've given me a lot to think about here. This will make me go back to where I began with this, and I need to look again at my original suspects.

    You have (unwittingly perhaps) confirmed for me that a "friendly IDI" is the most likely suspect. No one would kill (accidentally or in anger) and maintain that anger by then writing the RN, when they have already performed a certain amount of "undoing" of the murder, hence showing remorse. This, for me, eliminates the Rs completely.

    What I see is anger that began with the writing of the RN and culminated in the murder of JBR. The anger was directed against JR as well as JBR. Was this someone who was 'dissed' by both of them and who plotted revenge, but then went too far and regretted it. It was not a child molester because JBR was violated out of anger not lust.

    Anger is the key. Who wanted to make the Rs suffer and also get money they believed was owed to them? Who had this kind of anger and was familar with both JBR and JR? This narrows it down considerably.
    Top-notch criminal profilers, he said, "always put more weight on behavior than on words. The behavior of the offender is much more telling than what he says later," McCrary said. And the behavior of JonBenet's killer speaks very, very loudly.

    For instance, McCrary said evidence at the scene strongly disputes any theory that the killer may have been a disgruntled employee of Ramsey. "This crime was not about getting back at the father," said McCrary, who couldn't recall a case of "someone killing a kid to get back at a parent." He said the sexual assault of JonBenet "was a deviant, psychopathic sexual behavior, not an expression of anger at the father."

    If revenge on the father had been a motive, McCrary said, "the killer would have displayed the body; he wouldn't have hidden it in the basement."
    The profiler said the body would have been placed in a manner "to shock and offend" John Ramsey if anger or hate or revenge had been the motive.

    Additionally, he said that by assaulting JonBenet, killing her, taking her from an upper-floor bedroom to a far corner of the basement and writing a lengthy ransom note - all negated a revenge killing.

    "If that had been the reason for a killer being in the house that night," McCrary said, "they would have killed the little girl and gotten out as fast as possible."

    It's that behavior that a profiler puts most credence in, rather than in someone's words, according to McCrary. And McCrary comes with unusually good credentials. Douglas himself considers McCrary to be among "the top criminal profilers and investigative analysts in the world."
    http://www.corpus-delicti.com/mccrary_jbr.html
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  5. #5
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    I think it could be parts of both theories. Sexually sadistic with hatred for John, but not necessarily revenge against him. They just couldn't let JonBenet be able to tell what had happened or be able identify anyone.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Top-notch criminal profilers, he said, "always put more weight on behavior than on words. The behavior of the offender is much more telling than what he says later," McCrary said. And the behavior of JonBenet's killer speaks very, very loudly.

    For instance, McCrary said evidence at the scene strongly disputes any theory that the killer may have been a disgruntled employee of Ramsey. "This crime was not about getting back at the father," said McCrary, who couldn't recall a case of "someone killing a kid to get back at a parent." He said the sexual assault of JonBenet "was a deviant, psychopathic sexual behavior, not an expression of anger at the father."

    If revenge on the father had been a motive, McCrary said, "the killer would have displayed the body; he wouldn't have hidden it in the basement."
    The profiler said the body would have been placed in a manner "to shock and offend" John Ramsey if anger or hate or revenge had been the motive.

    Additionally, he said that by assaulting JonBenet, killing her, taking her from an upper-floor bedroom to a far corner of the basement and writing a lengthy ransom note - all negated a revenge killing.

    "If that had been the reason for a killer being in the house that night," McCrary said, "they would have killed the little girl and gotten out as fast as possible."

    It's that behavior that a profiler puts most credence in, rather than in someone's words, according to McCrary. And McCrary comes with unusually good credentials. Douglas himself considers McCrary to be among "the top criminal profilers and investigative analysts in the world."
    http://www.corpus-delicti.com/mccrary_jbr.html
    Yeah, but McCrary failed to take into account the 'undoing' of the crime as you stated in your opening post. That makes more sense to me than his proposal of "deviant, psychopathic sexual behavior", because there was relatively little sexual abuse in comparison to the violence of the murder. That 8" head split is no accident but motivated by pure anger, the depth of the cord in the neck was motivated by anger. Whoever did it was not just annoyed, they felt they had been humiliated, used, disrespected, and what they wanted was what was owed, both in money and payback. What could cause anger like that? Anger that, once spent, turned to regret. How sad.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Yeah, but McCrary failed to take into account the 'undoing' of the crime as you stated in your opening post. That makes more sense to me than his proposal of "deviant, psychopathic sexual behavior", because there was relatively little sexual abuse in comparison to the violence of the murder. That 8" head split is no accident but motivated by pure anger, the depth of the cord in the neck was motivated by anger. Whoever did it was not just annoyed, they felt they had been humiliated, used, disrespected, and what they wanted was what was owed, both in money and payback. What could cause anger like that? Anger that, once spent, turned to regret. How sad.
    MurriFlower,
    You have (unwittingly perhaps) confirmed for me that a "friendly IDI" is the most likely suspect. No one would kill (accidentally or in anger) and maintain that anger by then writing the RN, when they have already performed a certain amount of "undoing" of the murder, hence showing remorse. This, for me, eliminates the Rs completely.
    And thats called confirmation bias.

    because there was relatively little sexual abuse in comparison to the violence of the murder.
    Was there? How do you quantify this, or is it your subjective opinion? Have you taken any prior ongoing chronic sexual abuse into account.

    The wine-cellar crime scene is staged. You have never offered an IDI explanation for this.


    .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    MurriFlower,

    And thats called confirmation bias.


    Was there? How do you quantify this, or is it your subjective opinion? Have you taken any prior ongoing chronic sexual abuse into account.

    The wine-cellar crime scene is staged. You have never offered an IDI explanation for this.


    .


    And inquiring minds want to know!
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Thanks cynic

    You've given me a lot to think about here. This will make me go back to where I began with this, and I need to look again at my original suspects.

    You have (unwittingly perhaps) confirmed for me that a "friendly IDI" is the most likely suspect. No one would kill (accidentally or in anger) and maintain that anger by then writing the RN, when they have already performed a certain amount of "undoing" of the murder, hence showing remorse. This, for me, eliminates the Rs completely.
    Whatever helps, Murri, but I'm a bit puzzled. I don't know what this anger in the RN is you speak of. Indeed, the experts said that it's oddly devoid of anger and was ALSO part of the "undoing," if that helps.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    That 8" head split is no accident but motivated by pure anger, the depth of the cord in the neck was motivated by anger.
    I'm curious, Murri. What do you base those statements on?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha_C View Post
    And inquiring minds want to know!
    You bet your life we do!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  12. #12
    Small Foreign Faction: McCrary talks about the word "small". If the kidnappers were to be taken serious, they would have claimed to be a "larger" faction...further intimidating John to comply with their demands.

    "Foreign Factions"...if they were to kidnap the child of a CEO...they would go for the male child..the son...the heir. Most foreigners place males at the top and females are considered "second class". Why not take the boy...the more important one?

    What member of this foreign faction would care to feed JonBenet pineapple before kidnapping her? What foreign faction who threatens to behead JonBenet, molest her, kill her, and carefully wrap JonBenet "papoose style"?

    Even John doesn't believe this foreign faction crap.

    #1. Burke's voice is heard on the 911 tape.

    #2 Burkes swiss-army-knife is found in the basement.

    #3. Burke owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots..he verified that in his Grand Jury
    testimony. Burke's Hi-Tec boots had a compass on the shoelaces.

    Two baseball bats belonging to Burke were found in the South side and North side of the Ramsey home.

    You have pineapple and glass of tea on the breakfast table...JonBenet had eaten pineapple. You have a pillow in the kitchen? You have a flashlight on the kitchen counter. You have pad and pen in the phone area.

    Whatever happened that night...Patsy and/or John Ramsey decided they needed to cover up this horrific accident.

    John Ramsey...Big CEO...he had to think of his reputation, his name...he could not bring JonBenet back...he did not want to lose his son...
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Thanks cynic

    You've given me a lot to think about here. This will make me go back to where I began with this, and I need to look again at my original suspects.

    You have (unwittingly perhaps) confirmed for me that a "friendly IDI" is the most likely suspect. No one would kill (accidentally or in anger) and maintain that anger by then writing the RN, when they have already performed a certain amount of "undoing" of the murder, hence showing remorse. This, for me, eliminates the Rs completely.

    What I see is anger that began with the writing of the RN and culminated in the murder of JBR. The anger was directed against JR as well as JBR. Was this someone who was 'dissed' by both of them and who plotted revenge, but then went too far and regretted it. It was not a child molester because JBR was violated out of anger not lust.
    Anger is the key. Who wanted to make the Rs suffer and also get money they believed was owed to them? Who had this kind of anger and was familar with both JBR and JR? This narrows it down considerably.
    I agree this was about anger.And I always felt that if IDI it was someone known and if there's one thing I am sure of in this case it's JR KNOWS or at least has a good guess re who it was (otherwise I can't explain their behaviour).
    The question is,why isn't he talkin'???????

    For ex,last time I heard from L.Wood,he complained about the BPD and Beckner stalking the family again and going in the wrong direction.Well,if so,if I were JR I'd sue the hell out of the BPD,I'd be on every news channel complaining.It's about my daughters murder/killer.Nope,that doesn't happen,WHY?

    JR is the key,no matter whether RDI or IDI.
    I am also more and more sure that if RDI they had help.Maybe the R who did it wasn't even alone.

    WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO( NON RAMSEY) THE LAST PERSON SEEING JB ALIVE WAS.
    There are NO witnesses (none I heard of) who can claim at what hour the R's returned home,IF they returned straight home.
    So many things we don't know of.

    Maybe they even had other guests that night.
    Maybe one of them (PR?) just went to bed and had NO idea that JR was expecting a friend.

    I am so sure right now that we are dealing with RDI+IDI ,I just can't connect the dots.And because none of those "smart" rdi and idi cops tried to look at this from this angle we don't have the info we need.
    The rice is already cooked...

  14. #14
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    If it's RDI,JR is the only one who can put an end to this and enlighten us.
    If IDI it's obvious to ME that JR knows who and why.(who could have been mad at him and why).

    SO WHAT THE #$%$ are the cops waiting for?
    They have what they need right there on a golden plate,the key player.
    There muts be a way they can question this guy,come on,is EVERYBODY so scared of LW?

    I hope they do something before it's too late,it's not that JR is gonna live another 50 years.
    The rice is already cooked...

  15. #15
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    They have a witness who changed her story.
    Melody Stanton.
    To me it looks like someone got to her and made her change her statement.
    WHO was it and why.
    What she first claimed is very important and part of the timeline.
    It's been said that the R team people checked with the neighbours and friends right after the murder.
    What and who made MS change her story,go back and ask her!Cause I personally don't buy it,first she says something serious that makes sense then she plays the nutso who has dreams and visions.
    I really think what she first said was true.And this means someone talked her into changing the story.
    But I guess the cops are more into chasing ghosts like BR even if they know they won't get anything out of him.Why not try something different.
    The rice is already cooked...

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