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Thread: UK - Joanna Yeates Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #12

  1. #26
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    [quote=Missjones;6081969]
    Quote Originally Posted by Luna15 View Post
    To be fair, if he is innocent, he should be pleading as such, now matter what evidence the police allege to have.
    FAO: Otto Yes I agree but it appears he isnt allowed to until 4th May ( for the grace of God go I) you have to wait 4 months
    ]

    Do we know if this is the case? I was surmising in my post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillb View Post
    Here's a bit of help regarding posting images to forums.

    http://www.ibdguy.com/posting.shtml

    You need to host your images onto a photo hosting website like flickr, photobucket, or Image Shack. They generate an image IMG code you embed in this comment section.
    Lots of different ways to do it really. Forum tags if you use Firefox for example.

    It looks a bit confusing at first, but is easy enough with a bit of practice.
    I have posted pics on here, it lets you move them into position with the writing, but when its posted, its on the next page, I ve never seen a picture on this front page on this forum, but video's will post on here, maybe you can try and post a pic, if I know it can be done, I will have another go.

  3. #28
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    Front page of The Sun tomorrow

    Jo's dad: We feel so sorry for McCanns.

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...uary_1%2C_2011

    Not to help justice in her need would be an impiety ~Plato~

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  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luna15 View Post
    Front page of The Sun tomorrow

    Jo's dad: We feel so sorry for McCanns.

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...uary_1%2C_2011


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  7. #30
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    [quote=Lynn R;6081977]
    Quote Originally Posted by Missjones View Post


    Do we know if this is the case? I was surmising in my post.
    We can only surmise from what the family have said, and this is a good indication I think (if true of course)

    On Monday, staff and students at Eindhoven Technical University, where Mr Tabak studied architectural engineering, announced the creation of a fighting fund to aid his defence.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...Christmas.html
    Not to help justice in her need would be an impiety ~Plato~

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  9. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by enzeder View Post
    Not to help justice in her need would be an impiety ~Plato~

  10. #32
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    [quote=Luna15;6082063]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post

    We can only surmise from what the family have said, and this is a good indication I think (if true of course)

    On Monday, staff and students at Eindhoven Technical University, where Mr Tabak studied architectural engineering, announced the creation of a fighting fund to aid his defence.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...Christmas.html
    Ah sorry I was referring to the point where the defence 'have' to wait a certain amount of time before entering a plea

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  12. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missjones View Post
    If VT doesnt know the exact evidence against him how can he plead innocent of guilty,
    99.9% sure he'll plead not guilty. I'll use a theoretical scenario to give an indication of why.

    Joe Bloggs is arrested and charged with rape.

    The police's case against him is that, armed with a gun, he went to Jane Doe's home one night intent on raping her, and knowing her partner was away that weekend.

    Joe Bloggs version of events is that yes he did have a gun. It was in his pocket and fell out as he was leaving the house. He went to the house to see Jane's partner not Jane, not knowing Jane would even be at the house that night. Finding Jane alone on the spur of the moment he committed the offence.


    To plea "guilty" means, whether everything is true or not in the police's version, he is pleading guilty to the police's version of events. All of it. Whilst he may get a reduction in sentence for the guilty plea there are aggravating features about the offence (gun, pre-planned, offence occured in her own home etc) that would likely cancel out that reduction and could in fact mean he gets a bigger sentence.

    By going "not guilty" instead his defence can test the evidence in court. It could then be that it is shown to be false that he used the gun to threaten Jane, that he did really go there on the spur of the moment and really had been trying to find Jane's partner. He's still in the ***** conviction and sentence wise but with less aggravating features now to be taken into consideration his sentence could be no worse than it would be for the guilty plea...and of course there's always the chance he gets off with it completely and is acquitted or gets off on a technicality.


    For murder the maximum reduction in sentence for a guilty plea is five years, or one sixth of the original sentence that would have been imposed. If there are any aggravating features to be taken into consideration (planning in advance, abduction/concealing of the body, sexual motive ..to name a few) the sentence would be more severe and likely to cancel out any reduction for a guilty plea anyway, so there is very little incentive to plead "guilty" and rarely does it happen in murder cases.

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldielox View Post
    99.9% sure he'll plead not guilty. I'll use a theoretical scenario to give an indication of why.

    Joe Bloggs is arrested and charged with rape.

    The police's case against him is that, armed with a gun, he went to Jane Doe's home one night intent on raping her, and knowing her partner was away that weekend.

    Joe Bloggs version of events is that yes he did have a gun. It was in his pocket and fell out as he was leaving the house. He went to the house to see Jane's partner not Jane, not knowing Jane would even be at the house that night. Finding Jane alone on the spur of the moment he committed the offence.


    To plea "guilty" means, whether everything is true or not in the police's version, he is pleading guilty to the police's version of events. All of it. Whilst he may get a reduction in sentence for the guilty plea there are aggravating features about the offence (gun, pre-planned, offence occured in her own home etc) that would likely cancel out that reduction and could in fact mean he gets a bigger sentence.

    By going "not guilty" instead his defence can test the evidence in court. It could then be that it is shown to be false that he used the gun to threaten Jane, that he did really go there on the spur of the moment and really had been trying to find Jane's partner. He's still in the ***** conviction and sentence wise but with less aggravating features now to be taken into consideration his sentence could be no worse than it would be for the guilty plea...and of course there's always the chance he gets off with it completely and is acquitted or gets off on a technicality.


    For murder the maximum reduction in sentence for a guilty plea is five years, or one sixth of the original sentence that would have been imposed. If there are any aggravating features to be taken into consideration (planning in advance, abduction/concealing of the body, sexual motive ..to name a few) the sentence would be more severe and likely to cancel out any reduction for a guilty plea anyway, so there is very little incentive to plead "guilty" and rarely does it happen in murder cases.
    I get the scenario, but in VTs case we have no motive, he is not a rapist has a good clean record in Holland as well as in the UK, worked hard to get the PHd and good job, got a new life with lovely GF spending Christmas with her parents from 24 till 26 Dec then goes home to his family in Holland till 2 Jan, goes back to work, why kill JY, why throw it all away, his family are so shocked and love him too . I cant think of another murdered who didnt have something in their background to make them a killer if not at the least some motive

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  16. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post
    Not sure if this has been highlighted already:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/2011/01...5875-22838073/
    'But it yesterday emerged pictures from Clifton Suspension Bridge’s CCTV – one of the best hopes of a breakthrough in Jo Yeates’ murder hunt – could be too dim to show her killer or their car registration.

    The tourist attraction provides the most direct route from the 25-year-old’s flat to the roadside verge three miles away where her body was dumped.

    According to toll-keepers though, the bridge’s shoddy pictures will not identify the strangler’s face because the landmark’s 3,000 LED lights cause a glare which greatly reduces CCTV quality.

    They will also be unlikely to pick out registration plates of every motorist. It will be a huge blow to desperate detectives hoping for their first major development in the hunt for Jo’s murderer.'
    Yes, this is an old report and what it did not make clear was that the lights on the bridge are turned off at midnight. So any film taken after that time would be unaffected, and therefore perfectly usable. More shoddy journalism

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  18. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missjones View Post
    I get the scenario, but in VTs case we have no motive, he is not a rapist has a good clean record in Holland as well as in the UK, worked hard to get the PHd and good job, got a new life with lovely GF spending Christmas with her parents from 24 till 26 Dec then goes home to his family in Holland till 2 Jan, goes back to work, why kill JY, why throw it all away, his family are so shocked and love him too . I cant think of another murdered who didnt have something in their background to make them a killer if not at the least some motive

    I think Goldielox was trying to show an example. But I totally agree with you

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  20. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post
    BTW I wonder why he appeared via video link. Is this the new way to save money etc? is it optional or would there have been some other reason?
    Probably to avoid the scrummage of photographers outside the courts.

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  22. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherwell View Post
    Probably to avoid the scrummage of photographers outside the courts.
    Yes I imagine that would be very traumatic. So it's optional then.

  23. #39
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    I don't think we can assume it's optional. It is probably to reduce the disturbance and inconvenience for all concerned, rather than just for the benefit of the defendant.

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  25. #40
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    Some general comments ... after catching up on the thread.

    I read in the links from this morning that VT has "legal aid". I'm guessing this means that he has very little savings. If he were to apply for bail, he would need to put something up. Is it possible that he has nothing pay for bail and therefore hasn't requested it?

    It does sound like the prosecution has until the beginning of April to spell out the case against him, and then the defence has until the beginning of May to respond. Is that like the prosecution "disclosure"?

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  27. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luna15 View Post
    To be fair, if he is innocent, he should be pleading as such, now matter what evidence the police allege to have.

    FAO: Otto

    When you have a minute, can you just clarify what VT's brother said about VT being in the States for work? from what I can gather, he was in the States for 6 weeks? JY & GR had only been in the flat a couple of months, so I am guessing he only would have been around them for a couple of weeks before Dec 17th? TYIA.

    I do wonder at times it could have been a case of mistaken identity? was VT's GF the target?
    I watched a bit of it again. At 4:01 minutes (approx) the brother discusses VT being away for work. He says that the flat that Joanna and GR were in was empty for a few months, and then Joanna and GR were there for only a couple of months, and in the same time VT was in the US working ... so there wasn't much opportunity for them to have contact.

    I suppose this suggests that if VT did murder Joanna, then it would be a random, stranger attack.

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  29. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Some general comments ... after catching up on the thread.

    I read in the links from this morning that VT has "legal aid". I'm guessing this means that he has very little savings. If he were to apply for bail, he would need to put something up. Is it possible that he has nothing pay for bail and therefore hasn't requested it?

    It does sound like the prosecution has until the beginning of April to spell out the case against him, and then the defence has until the beginning of May to respond. Is that like the prosecution "disclosure"?
    BBM

    I'd like to know the answer to that as well.

    I posted these links a thread or two ago regarding the plea and case management hearing but I'll post them again.

    PLEA AND CASE MANAGEMENT HEARING (PCMH)
    http://www.needasolicitor.com/61/Leg...RING-PCMH.html

    Plea and Case Management Hearing - Advocates Questionnaire
    http://www.justice.gov.uk/annex-e-pcmh-april-2010.pdf

    Monday, January 31st, 2011

    "Nigel Lickley (corr), prosecuting for the CPS, then informed the judge of the current timetable for the Crown’s case.

    He said: ”The timetable we propose is this. That the Crown will intend to serve the case papers on or before April 1.

    ”The defence case statement on or before April 28 and to have a plea and case management hearing in this court on May 4."

    http://swns.com/jo-yeates-murder-vin...te-311205.html

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  31. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luna15 View Post
    To be fair, if he is innocent, he should be pleading as such, now matter what evidence the police allege to have.
    There isn't really an opportunity to plead not guilty at a Preliminary Hearing, although he could have entered a guilty plea yesterday. Indeed, had he done so there is even provision for him to have been sentenced on the spot, although for a crime this serious the judge would almost certainly have delayed sentencing until psychological reports become available. See:

    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/c...ocedure_rules/

    "If the Defendant intends to plead guilty, the magistrates' court should make appropriate orders so that he can be sentenced at the Preliminary Hearing if possible."

    See also www.justice.gov.uk/anx_e2page1-4.pdf in which it is asked if the defendant has been advised about credit for pleading guilty, and if it is likely that the case can be concluded at the Preliminary Hearing by the defendant pleading guilty?

    Yesterday's Preliminary Hearing took only 15 minutes, but an hour had been allocated, in case of this eventuality.

    Not entering a plea yesterday strongly suggests that VT intends to contest the case, but it leaves open the possibility of a guilty plea in May, once the weight of evidence has been put to him.

    In short, there isn't really a mechanism or reason to plea not guilty at a Preliminary Hearing. Just an opportunity to plead guilty and thus save the ordeal of a trial by jury.

    Hope that makes sense!

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  33. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luna15 View Post
    Front page of The Sun tomorrow

    Jo's dad: We feel so sorry for McCanns.

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...uary_1%2C_2011

    I think its about time David Yeates stopped giving soundbites to the press.

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  35. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missjones View Post
    I get the scenario, but in VTs case we have no motive, he is not a rapist has a good clean record in Holland as well as in the UK, worked hard to get the PHd and good job, got a new life with lovely GF spending Christmas with her parents from 24 till 26 Dec then goes home to his family in Holland till 2 Jan, goes back to work, why kill JY, why throw it all away, his family are so shocked and love him too . I cant think of another murdered who didnt have something in their background to make them a killer if not at the least some motive
    I suppose you mean no known motive. We cannot see inside his mind, and that is where motives may be hidden. The fact that he has a PhD is irrelevant. We don't know that there is nothing in his background either. Perhaps we will find out at some point.

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  37. #46
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    Tabak Family Summit

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ly-summit.html

    Not sure if this was in Marcel's video ... but Vincent called a family summit [minus the children] when he was visiting at Christmas to tell them he was "under suspicion.

    So his family could not have been completely surprised when he was arrested.

    .

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  39. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by notsure View Post
    I suppose you mean no known motive. We cannot see inside his mind, and that is where motives may be hidden. The fact that he has a PhD is irrelevant. We don't know that there is nothing in his background either. Perhaps we will find out at some point.
    Exactly, there are people who have some underlying psychological problem yet outwardly show no signs. Also there are people who are guilty of a one off compulsive act, maybe triggered by lust, envy, drink, drugs whatever.

    As you say we cannot see inside the mind.

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  41. #48
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    Well, I'm just going to wait for the trial.

    I have to say October seems a thousand years away. I wonder what it seems like for VT?

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  43. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patticake View Post
    Not sure if this was in Marcel's video ... but Vincent called a family summit [minus the children] when he was visiting at Christmas to tell them he was "under suspicion.
    "Under suspicion" seems an odd phrase to use, if it has been reported accurately. If my neighbour had been murdered and the police had asked to search my house, I'd be curious to know why, but I wouldn't assume that I was "under suspicion" (unless I'd done it, of course).

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  45. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myserty64 View Post
    Well, I'm just going to wait for the trial.

    I have to say October seems a thousand years away. I wonder what it seems like for VT?
    It would be a complete nightmare if he was innocent. Personally, I would have to be dragged into court sceaming my innocence to everyone in the vicinity. I would not care at all about the consequences, even the Judiciary would get an ear bashing, or worse if they said anything to the contrary.
    I swear, I would have to be ankle chained or I would be out of there at the first opportunity

    Last edited by whiterum; 02-01-2011 at 06:28 AM.

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