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Thread: UK - Joanna Yeates Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #12

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patticake View Post
    Tabak Family Summit

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ly-summit.html

    Not sure if this was in Marcel's video ... but Vincent called a family summit [minus the children] when he was visiting at Christmas to tell them he was "under suspicion.

    So his family could not have been completely surprised when he was arrested.

    .
    at christmas? Now if a neighbor was murdered and I were completely innocent, the last thing I would think is that I was under suspicion. obviously i would be questioned like everyone else but that would not make me "call a family summit" to tell them I am under suspicion. This to me is a huge red flag, he was setting them up to believe his story if caught.

    imo

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  3. #127
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    Isn't it just the usual lurid tabloid style, though? Try stripping away the dramatic and emotive language. Of course he would want to tell his family that his next-door neighbour had been murdered, and about all the brouhaha that goes with that, interviews, searches etc. Wouldn't you? And quite understandable that they wouldn't want to discuss it in front of children.

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherwell View Post
    Isn't it just the usual lurid tabloid style, though? Try stripping away the dramatic and emotive language. Of course he would want to tell his family that his next-door neighbour had been murdered, and about all the brouhaha that goes with that, interviews, searches etc. Wouldn't you? And quite understandable that they wouldn't want to discuss it in front of children.

    I don't think SilkySifaka was talking about the lurid style.

    I think the point was, sure you're going to tell the family about the front page headline story unfolding in and around your home ... but why would you include you were "under suspicion"!

    An innocent person would not have drawn that inference. After all, they have nothing to fear ... they are completely innocent.

    .

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  7. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patticake View Post
    I don't think SilkySifaka was talking about the lurid style.

    I think the point was, sure you're going to tell the family about the front page headline story unfolding in and around your home ... but why would you include you were "under suspicion"!

    An innocent person would not have drawn that inference. After all, they have nothing to fear ... they are completely innocent.
    .
    But that's exactly my point. It's all media paraphrasing. How do we know what he said, exactly? For one thing, he would have been speaking in Dutch; for another, we have no idea how the subject was approached. An innocent person may well have made light of it: "I'm a suspect, you know!" Even the brother's words are now coming with the benefit of hindsight.

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  9. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherwell View Post
    Isn't it just the usual lurid tabloid style, though? Try stripping away the dramatic and emotive language. Of course he would want to tell his family that his next-door neighbour had been murdered, and about all the brouhaha that goes with that, interviews, searches etc. Wouldn't you? And quite understandable that they wouldn't want to discuss it in front of children.
    That's certainly my take on it too ... a much exaggerated perspective on the fact that VT wanted to tell his family, out of the presence of the children, about what was going on at home.

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  11. #131
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    If I was innocent I would discuss it casually as a matter of passing with my family but to call a family summit, as if he was preparing them for what he knew was to come. It seems he knew he was under suspicion and he knew why.

    The fact that he is now charged with murder adds more weight to that.

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  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    This is what made me wonder:

    "Once charged, the police must release you on bail unless the custody officer reasonably believes that:

    There is doubt about your name or address; or
    Detention is necessary to protect you or somebody else; or
    You will fail to attend court or will interfere with witnesses or the administration of justice.Like the courts, the police are now able to attach conditions to your bail, such as living at a fixed address, reporting to a local police station, obeying a curfew, avoiding named people or places, or providing a financial guarantee for your attendance at court.

    If you fail to attend court without reasonable excuse when on bail, you commit a separate offence under the Bail Act 1976. If you break any of the conditions of your bail, you can be arrested and brought in custody to the next sitting of the local Magistrates' Court, who may then take away your bail."

    Ref: http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrig...ants/bail.html

    Since he must be granted bail unless one of the conditions apply, then one of the problems could be related to " Failing to surrender"; perhaps also meaning that "failing to attend court" could be a concern.
    IMO it could mean he could flee the country and the police would have to secure an European arrest warrant (if they can find him) which might be disputed and take ages to sort out. Also that he could try to intimidate witnesses or find a person to give him an alibi. The fact it was reported he was on suicide watch could also mean he knows the gravity of the position he's in. JMO

    Edited to add.. VT will know by now who the sobbing woman was and that person might have expressed a need for protection.

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  15. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    This is what made me wonder:

    "Once charged, the police must release you on bail unless the custody officer reasonably believes that:

    There is doubt about your name or address; or
    Detention is necessary to protect you or somebody else; or
    You will fail to attend court or will interfere with witnesses or the administration of justice.

    Like the courts, the police are now able to attach conditions to your bail, such as living at a fixed address, reporting to a local police station, obeying a curfew, avoiding named people or places, or providing a financial guarantee for your attendance at court.

    If you fail to attend court without reasonable excuse when on bail, you commit a separate offence under the Bail Act 1976. If you break any of the conditions of your bail, you can be arrested and brought in custody to the next sitting of the local Magistrates' Court, who may then take away your bail."

    Ref: http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrig...ants/bail.html

    Since he must be granted bail unless one of the conditions apply, then one of the problems could be related to " Failing to surrender"; perhaps also meaning that "failing to attend court" could be a concern.
    Perhaps there is the concern that VT might fancy a trip to Holland , there are plenty of way's to get from England to Holland other than flying.
    Then there is whole formal process of getting VT back to England.

    I do find it strange that bail was not even asked for, bail would have been denied anyway JMO.

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  17. #134
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    How many accused murderer's are regularly released on bail?

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  21. #136
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    Interesting, I didn't know you could put up surety in the UK, if only because it leads to different treatment as in the 2nd link; one person is back at home with his family, the other person is stuck on remand.

    I think the prosecution in this case mentioned the risk of interfering with witnesses, or words to that effect, when they explained why they would oppose bail for VT if it had been applied for.

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  23. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myserty64 View Post
    How many accused murderer's are regularly released on bail?
    At least one person that was arrested in connection with this murder was released on bail, and I get the impression that bail; sometimes with conditions, is a right ... since there is only suspicion, but the rights of the accused are that he or she is innocent pending trial.

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    how much do we know about what happened in aberdeen road very early in the morning of the arrest...
    it was reported that vt was clearing his windscreen of frost at 2am...

    presumably, that speeded up his arrest and charge...

    it may account for fact that no bail applied for....

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  26. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturally suspicious View Post
    how much do we know about what happened in aberdeen road very early in the morning of the arrest...
    it was reported that vt was clearing his windscreen of frost at 2am...

    presumably, that speeded up his arrest and charge...

    it may account for fact that no bail applied for....
    The windscreen clearing was a forum member's son IIRC who was up very early and noticed police gathering outside. I think VT was arrested in a 2am raid inside Aberdeen road.

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  28. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
    The windscreen clearing was a forum member's son IIRC who was up very early and noticed police gathering outside. I think VT was arrested in a 2am raid inside Aberdeen road.
    Yes, it was a member of the Digital Spy forum's son who commented that after the arrest, the area was full of police & they watched him(the son) de-ice his car.

    Apparently, 1 in 8 people charged with murder are granted bail - I can't remember where I read that figure though so will have to trawl through my internet history.

    Suicide watch is a matter of routine when someone first enters prison; it's part of the reception process so I wouldn't read too much into that. That said, VT if released on bail, would probably be more at risk from killing himself which of course would obstruct the course of justice. Given that he was moved from prison in Bristol because of the strength of feeling locally, he could well be in danger if released. Basically, any harm that he came to on release could obstruct the course of justice. He feels safe in prison, why ask for bail if his life would be in danger from himself or others?
    Last edited by bos; 02-03-2011 at 05:41 AM. Reason: syntax

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  30. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by veggiefan View Post
    Does it? In Bristol, LE gave enough details of VT's arrest to make his full name instantly obvious to the world. This has resulted in his family, friends and colleagues coming forward to speak of his good character, the press discovering that he has no criminal record, and even the Crown Prosecutor saying in court that "he is a man of good character both in this country and, as I understand, in Holland."

    In contrast, Olaf H remains anonymous, as I understand it (although I haven't been following the case).
    Well, yes. Apparently Olaf H was a family man whose hobby was gardening. The German police have ruled out his involvement with any prior offences. And incidentally Olaf H is only 'anonymous' to the extent that he hasn't been named by the German media. A certain 32 year old man was arrested by the British police and within a few hours his name was all over the internet. I imagine that if you were German it would be possible to identify which 45 year old former executive at Deutsche Telecom if you put your mind to it.

    In any case, I think we're in danger of drifting off at a tangent here. I only pointed out the Olaf H story in response to a post by Missjones who apparently had a problem in accepting VT as a suspect because he was "not a rapist has a good clean record in Holland as well as in the UK, worked hard to get the PHd and good job .... ". (Although the same poster appears to have been quite happy to accept GR as a suspect, despite the fact that he (presumably) is not a rapist, has a good clean record in the UK, worked hard to qualify as an architect and get a good job etc. The only point I was trying to make was that sometimes apparently respectable people turn out to have done some very bad things indeed.

    Like that perfectly respectable doctor Harold Shipman who is believed to be responsible for maybe a hundred or more murders.
    One of the reasons why he got 'away with it' for so long was because people in general (and the authorities in particular) found it so hard to accept that such a thing was possible.

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  32. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by bos View Post
    Suicide watch is a matter of routine when someone first enters prison; it's part of the reception process so I wouldn't read too much into that. That said, VT if released on bail, would probably be more at risk from killing himself which of course would obstruct the course of justice. Given that he was moved from prison in Bristol because of the strength of feeling locally, he could well be in danger if released. Basically, any harm that he came to on release could obstruct the course of justice. He feels safe in prison, why ask for bail if his life would be in danger from himself or others?
    It might be worth noting that, as the CPS puts it, "bail may not be granted to someone charged with murder unless the court is of the opinion that there is no significant risk that, if released on bail, that person would commit an offence that would be likely to cause physical or mental injury to another person."

    And in order to ensure that they do not cause any injury to another person (which naturally includes themselves) it is a "requirement that the defendant undergoes examination by 2 medical practitioners, one of whom has been approved for the purposes of s.12 Mental Health Act 1983".

    There are, of course, good reasons why a defendant might not want to jump through that particular hoop.

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  34. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturally suspicious View Post
    it was reported that vt was clearing his windscreen of frost at 2am...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
    The windscreen clearing was a forum member's son IIRC who was up very early and noticed police gathering outside. I think
    Quote Originally Posted by bos View Post
    Yes, it was a member of the Digital Spy forum's son who commented that after the arrest, the area was full of police & they watched him(the son) de-ice his car.
    Actually I think it was this post that started the de-icing rumour

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6035776&postcount=630"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #7[/ame]

  35. #144
    Morning all

    Sorry to be a pain, could someone post the link to the photo map of the exact spot Jo was found? The one where it was circled I think - I think it was one of philb's posts, I can't remember, also, would it be a good idea to link to it in the first post of threads for easy reference for future?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aneurin View Post
    It might be worth noting that, as the CPS puts it, "bail may not be granted to someone charged with murder unless the court is of the opinion that there is no significant risk that, if released on bail, that person would commit an offence that would be likely to cause physical or mental injury to another person."

    And in order to ensure that they do not cause any injury to another person (which naturally includes themselves) it is a "requirement that the defendant undergoes examination by 2 medical practitioners, one of whom has been approved for the purposes of s.12 Mental Health Act 1983".

    There are, of course, good reasons why a defendant might not want to jump through that particular hoop.
    There'll be a psychiatric report on him done somewhere down the line anyway, regardless of any bail app reasons. It could also be a reason why bail hasn't yet been applied for too - they're waiting for the reports to be done, which can take time to do.

    What's interesting though is that they didn't object on grounds they felt him to be a risk to anyone else if released on bail. They raised concerns they fear he could abscond and/or could possibly try to or interfere with witnesses but no apparent concerns as to him being violent or having murderous tendencies which might come to the fore again (I use "again" here meaning they suspect he's killed one person but don't seem concerned currently that he might kill another one if released)

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  38. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggymoon View Post
    Sorry to be a pain, could someone post the link to the photo map of the exact spot Jo was found? The one where it was circled I think - I think it was one of philb's posts, I can't remember, also, would it be a good idea to link to it in the first post of threads for easy reference for future?
    The exact spot is still a matter of conjecture and argument. The police have never disclosed exactly where she was found.

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  40. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggymoon View Post
    Morning all

    Sorry to be a pain, could someone post the link to the photo map of the exact spot Jo was found? The one where it was circled I think - I think it was one of philb's posts, I can't remember, also, would it be a good idea to link to it in the first post of threads for easy reference for future?
    Currently, there isn't consensus here on where the exact spot was. The police indicated the spot via their crime-watch reconstruction and the place where they took the parents. However, prior to that, a newspaper published an aerial photo with the quarry entrance circled. Personally, I'm going with the police-generated evidence but there are other conclusions.

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  42. #148
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    So, is it true one in eight people charged with murder are released on bail?
    Are people generally happy with this?
    Will murder eventually be classed as a misdemenour?
    Why bother going to all the trouble of hunting down killers if they are let out on bail?
    Can someone explain to me why it is a good idea to have murderers out on bail?

    Do you think Joanna Yeates family would be happy if VT was out on bail?

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  44. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myserty64 View Post
    Do you think Joanna Yeates family would be happy if VT was out on bail?
    If I was in their position, I know I wouldn't be too happy and would see it as a concern for many reasons...

    We have no clue really if VT is innocent or guilty... but just the fact that he was charged for murder and is about to stand trial means that the police have something against him... Otherwise why charge him for such?

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  46. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
    The windscreen clearing was a forum member's son IIRC who was up very early and noticed police gathering outside. I think VT was arrested in a 2am raid inside Aberdeen road.
    Yes, it was reported that police removed three wheelie bins and a mountain bike for forensic testing, from Aberdeen Road. There was no mention of any car, or it would have been taken as well.

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