Broken/open window discovery-a lie?

madeleine said:

something's not right with the timeline,IMO JR didn't even go to the basemenet OR he went there BEFORE the cops arrived

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cynic said:

Trying to lock down a timeline here will drive you crazy; there is a lot of conflicting information.
It appears that both Rick French and Fleet White were in the basement prior to JR, but it’s hard to say with certainty.
If true, however, then both did not notice that the window was open (FW says it was unlatched.)
Moreover, both did not notice the door to the train room being blocked by a chair.
If JR was downstairs prior to FW and RF, he claimed that he not only closed the window, but latched it as well. This would then contradict FW, who says the window was unlatched.
If the window was found open by JR, why would he close and latch the window?
Finally, if, as he would claim years later, it was his “first impression that the kidnapper had gone through that window,” why would he not call everyone in the house downstairs to point out this vitally important discovery?
JR’s recollection of the window and the importance ascribed to it seems to increase over time.
First it was:
LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember.
1998

Then it becomes:
The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
COURIC: You did tell her about the...
Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
COURIC: ...open window?
Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
2000

He seems to have some problems with his memory a year later, I’m sure that the fact he was under oath in a deposition had nothing to do with it, though.
Q. …did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
A. Not that I recall
2001

Finally, John’s memory recovers,again, and he confidently proclaims:
I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.
2003


Below is a series of Q and A’s on the issue, including all of the above quotes in context:

JR: I said, you know, this window’s broken, but I think I broke it last summer. It just hasn’t been fixed. And it was opened, but I closed it earlier and we got down on the floor and looked around for some glass just to be sure that it hadn’t been broken again.
ST: And Fleet had talked about earlier being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of day was that?
JR: I don’t know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o’clock.
ST: Was that prior to Fleet’s first trip down?
JR: I didn’t know he was in the basement. I didn’t know that. I mean other than that trip with me.
ST: And on the trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?
JR: Yep.
John Ramsey, 1997 Interview

LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you ever go down to the basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had gone down the basement. I went in the --
LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old
things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe
that far.
LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far were you? An inch?
JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It was cracked open.
LOU SMIT: Which window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.
There's three windows across here, as I recall. I think it was the middle one. It was that was broken. There was pane class broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself.
LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there was a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was positioned?
JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think the handle was on top. It was directly under the window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock it or close it?
JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little latch on it.
LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I think at that point I still was trying to figure out how they'd get in the house.
LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your (INAUDIBLE).
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean, part of what is going on you're in such a state of
disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open
a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.
Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought about it, I thought it was more of an alarming situation how it struck me at the time. It was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.
And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window.
…
LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what time was that? That's kind of important. In terms of time now.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have
been that time period: seven to nine. Cause I was still, you know amidst all this other stuff, trying to figure out what's going on here? How did they get in the house? I know this is before Linda
told us to go through the house. It was well before.
John Ramsey, 1998 Interview

Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.)
Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).

Q. Do you remember what you saw in the basement when you went down there?
A. I saw a partially opened window with broken glass and a suitcase beneath the window.
Q. When you would - did you see anything else there?
A. Not that looked out of the ordinary.
Q. May I ask why you went to the basement at that time?
A. I was trying to determine how someone could have gotten into our house.
Q. Did anyone ask you to go to the basement at that time?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if anybody saw you go to the basement at that time?
A. I have no idea.
Q. When you saw that the basement was in the condition that it was in, as you have just described it, and you came back upstairs, did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
A. Not that I recall
Q. When Linda Arndt asked you to go down to the basement, I think that was sometime in the early afternoon -
A. I don't remember the time. I really don't.
Q. When she asked you to go down to the basement, could you explain why you chose going to the basement since you had already been there earlier?
A. She told me to go through the house and look for anything - go through the house thoroughly, as I recall, and look for anything that seems out of place. And so my intent was to do it thoroughly.
Q. Did you ask Fleet White to join you?
A. I think I did, as I recall.
Q. Do you remember exactly the sequence of events when you went down to the basement the second time?
A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Q. Can you tell me where you looked?
A. I went back into the train room, showed Fleet the broken window, explained to him that I might have broken it myself months ago. I showed him the suitcase that I saw under the window, which I felt was very out of place. We looked for any large pieces of broken glass. And then I got up and went to the cellar room, opened the door, and found JonBenet.
John Ramsey Deposition, Wolf v Ramsey Lawsuit, December 12, 2001

BARBARA WALTERS: The police searched your house but they didn't find Jon Benet. But at one point you went downstairs and found an open window.
JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
BARBARA WALTERS: A window that you had broken yourself at one point to put your hand through and find the latch.
JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
BARBARA v/o: That window was in a storage room at the rear of the house. It was on the other end of the basement from the room in which JonBenet's body would later be found.
BARBARA WALTERS: What did you think when you saw this open window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was a bit alarmed, but I was more alarmed with the Samsonite suitcase that was standing up below the window.
BARBARA WALTERS: I have seen the actual police photograph that was taken of that window and the suitcase and, and, there it was in full sight.
JOHN RAMSEY: That looked wrong. That suitcase did not belong there.
PATSY RAMSEY: It was out of place.
JOHN RAMSEY: It was out of place.
BARBARA WALTERS: So you thought perhaps..
JOHN RAMSEY: It was...
BARBARA WALTERS: ...the kidnapper had gone through that window.
JOHN RAMSEY: I...that was my first impression, yes.
BARBARA WALTERS 20/20 MAR 15/00

COURIC: Detective Linda Arndt was assigned to the Ramsey home during those long hours. Sometime that morning, John Ramsey headed for the basement. Why did you go there?
Mr. RAMSEY: We had a basement window that was under a--a grate, a removable grate that I had used the past summer to get into the house when I'd lost my keys. I--I wanted to check that window. I went down to that room. The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
COURIC: You did tell her about the...
Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
COURIC: ...open window?
Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
COURIC: And what did she say?
Mr. RAMSEY: I don't recall that she said anything.
Today Show, March 20, 2000


KING: In the book, you write about the suitcase and the open basement window, but the police say you never told them about it.
J. RAMSEY: That's false.
P. RAMSEY: False.
J. RAMSEY: I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html

"Each window had four panes, and Fleet White, having been down there earlier, pointed out the baseball-sized hole in the upper left pane of the middle window. 'Damn it, I had to break that,' John Ramsey said, adding that it happened the previous summer when he kicked in the window to get into the house after locking himself out. Should have fixed it then, he noted, taping his forehead. The window was closed but unlatched."
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 27

"Rick French....was reportedly still tortured by his failure to open the wine cellar door when he searched the house in those first few minutes"
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 660

Larry King: A window. Was that window open when they investigated it?
Lou Smit: Yes. When John Ramsey had first seen the window...
Larry King: There we see a window. That's the window, right?
Lou Smit: That's the window. Now, again, that picture that you see is the first photograph taken of that window after the crime scene technicians got back into the house. Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White. But what that window did show us, when we first seen it, was that entry could have been made there.
May 28, 2001 Larry King Live Interview with Lou Smit


Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"
John Ramsey: “Correct.”
Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?”
John Ramsey: “Uh huh.
Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"
John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."
Lou Smit: So you couldn’t have gotten in without moving the chair?”
John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."
Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"
John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."
John Ramsey, 1998 Interview

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madeleine said:

if he broke the window and put the suitcase there(before 6.30) in order to mislead the cops that that's how the intruder got out (don't think so,this scenario came up later) then why did he admit it was him who broke it the summer before,doesn't make sense.

it's an irony,but what if it was JR who broke it THAT morning before LE arrived because he wanted to remove evidence through it?

I can't find any explanations for all this broken/open/latched/unlatched/closed window mess

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madeleine said:

BARBARA WALTERS: What did you think when you saw this open window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was a bit alarmed, but I was more alarmed with the Samsonite suitcase that was standing up below the window.
BARBARA WALTERS: I have seen the actual police photograph that was taken of that window and the suitcase and, and, there it was in full sight.
JOHN RAMSEY: That looked wrong. That suitcase did not belong there.
PATSY RAMSEY: It was out of place.
JOHN RAMSEY: It was out of place.


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ST: And you mentioned when you went down in the morning, the 26th, and it was unlatched, did that strike you as odd or did you bring that to anybody’s attention?

JR: I, I don’t know. I mean when I was, I think, yeah, I think it probably struck me as a little odd, but it wasn’t, I mean sometimes that window would be open because the basement got hot, or one of those windows would be opened. So it wasn’t . . .

ST: Particularly unusual?

JR: It was dramatically out of the ordinary, but, that is, I thought about it.

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but he tells nobody....................uh huh

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SunnieRN said:

Ok, I will admit, I am running on lack of sleep, but if he had broken it that morning to try and remove Evidence, he would have broken the spider web.

I do however totally believe that John did go into the basement to either move JB closer to the wine cellar door, or drug her there from another location. He was not being visualized for too long, to have been doing only things involving the mail.

I also wonder if the R's had a fire going that morning.
BBM

Sunnie, this is something I've wondered about often. If they did have a fire or even if there were ashes from a previous fire, I wonder if LE had the foresight to take the ashes and have them analyzed? Probably not, but lots of evidence could have disappeared this way.

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madeleine said:

when the cops asked him whether he told LA or not he says I don't recall,of course he can't say "i told her",that would have probably contradicted her notes and he would have ended up being in real trouble.he can lie on TV though.
i can't imagine you wouldn't tell anyone about your discovery if you were innocent and i really don't think a cop would have ignored you if you told him/her something like that.bs

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