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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It is also ridiculous to be smooching and playfully sticking out tongues while at the police station immediately after the discovery one's murdered roommate, but that is exactly what Amanda and Raffaele did. Just because the actions of Amanda and Raffaele are ridiculous (need I mention flipping cartwheels at the police station again?), it doesn't mean they didn't happen. Amanda and Raffaele behaved in a ridiculous manner at the time surrounding the murder of Meredith.

    As for the "huge" knife, I'm only aware of one 12 inch knife, equivalent in length to many dinner knives, that appears to contain evidence of the murder and belong in Raffaele's apartment. It's a standard size knife ... no reason to make it out to be big and heavy like a sledgehammer.
    I haven't a single knife that size in my house except for bread knives that are designed to cut through a complete loaf. (They are serrated rather than sharp: good luck killing somebody with them.)

    That isn't to say others don't have larger knives; and I don't pretend to know what would be standard in an Italian kitchen.

    The point isn't whether the knife is unusual, the point is a foot-long, non-folding knife is too large to conveniently carry around. It makes no sense to insist AK brought that knife from RS' drawer and took it out for the evening as a fashion accessory. Yet there is no evidence she specifically brought it to kill MK.


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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    That's not much of a rebuttal, Otto. Which of the 15 items do you believe to be untrue?

    Were the forensic results in when the "sex games gone wrong" theory was first postulated or not? (The answer is they were not. Trillian is correct.)
    I'm not the least bit interested in commenting on a list of phrases that someone believes to be true. People can believe what they want. I'm interested in discussing the facts and evidence of the case, which have nothing to do with personal beliefs.

    The only comment I have about lists that people make identifying their beliefs is: it is my belief that the above posted lists of beliefs could also be entitled "the following is untrue".


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  5. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I'm not the least bit interested in commenting on a list of phrases that someone believes to be true. People can believe what they want. I'm interested in discussing the facts and evidence of the case, which have nothing to do with personal beliefs.

    The only comment I have about lists that people make identifying their beliefs is: it is my belief that the above posted lists of beliefs could also be entitled "the following is untrue".
    Actually, Malkmus does a pretty good job of tackling that list, item by item. If you know where he has erred, I'm sure I'd like to know it.


  6. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It is also ridiculous to be smooching and playfully sticking out tongues while at the police station immediately after the discovery one's murdered roommate, but that is exactly what Amanda and Raffaele did. Just because the actions of Amanda and Raffaele are ridiculous (need I mention flipping cartwheels at the police station again?), it doesn't mean they didn't happen. Amanda and Raffaele behaved in a ridiculous manner at the time surrounding the murder of Meredith....
    It has become painfully apparent that the theory of AK's and RS' involvement came first and the evidence was invented later, so I don't know whether to believe any of the testimony re their "inappropriate" behavior. I believe they were physically demonstrative in comforting one another; that much I've seen on videotape. The depictions calculated to make them look bad ("sticking out tongues," "cartwheels") may well be exaggerations, if not outright lies.

    But even if one accepts such descriptions as true, that is a different meaning of the word "ridiculous" than carrying an unwieldy and dangerous-to-handle knife with you on an evening out.


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  8. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkmus View Post
    You need to re-read that list then, dgfred. Points 1, 3, 4, 6, 13 were all part of the trial. Additionally, most of the other points may have had an impact on the jury and public opinion in general on Amanda's guilt. The well could have been poisoned as those jury members were fed all this false information before the trial and may have entered the courtroom with preconceived notions.
    NO I DON'T .

    1- Bloody footprint on mat which the court verified the innocent side will not listen to.
    2- The luminal footprints were in blood IMO and the courts, another point the innocent side will not listen to.
    3- The bleach receipts were not used against either of them at trial.
    4- IMO there was evidence of some type of clean up.
    6- NO 'theory' or motive is necessary to convict.
    13- As has been stated many times, the jurors are sworn to look over the evidence and make their decision based on that evidence... not what could be 'poison' from the media. Repeat: ONLY THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED. I see absolutely no reason they couldn't perform their duties as sworn to do... and they did.

    'Preconceived notions'........ yeah, I see them.
    The Seeker / Sports Freak /


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  10. #51
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    'evidence not true'

    Is that similar to 'the best truth that I can remember'?
    The Seeker / Sports Freak /


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    NO I DON'T .

    1- Bloody footprint on mat which the court verified the innocent side will not listen to.
    2- The luminal footprints were in blood IMO and the courts, another point the innocent side will not listen to.
    3- The bleach receipts were not used against either of them at trial.
    4- IMO there was evidence of some type of clean up.
    6- NO 'theory' or motive is necessary to convict.
    13- As has been stated many times, the jurors are sworn to look over the evidence and make their decision based on that evidence... not what could be 'poison' from the media. Repeat: ONLY THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED. I see absolutely no reason they couldn't perform their duties as sworn to do... and they did.

    'Preconceived notions'........ yeah, I see them.
    You may disagree with how the evidence was presented in court, but your original claim was that none of these points were part of the trial, to which I stated they were. No need to bash your head into a brick wall over it, lol.


  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    NO I DON'T .

    1- Bloody footprint on mat which the court verified the innocent side will not listen to.
    2- The luminal footprints were in blood IMO and the courts, another point the innocent side will not listen to.
    3- The bleach receipts were not used against either of them at trial.
    4- IMO there was evidence of some type of clean up.
    6- NO 'theory' or motive is necessary to convict.
    13- As has been stated many times, the jurors are sworn to look over the evidence and make their decision based on that evidence... not what could be 'poison' from the media. Repeat: ONLY THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED. I see absolutely no reason they couldn't perform their duties as sworn to do... and they did.

    'Preconceived notions'........ yeah, I see them.
    4. Even if you believe there was some evidence of clean-up, I have trouble seeing how there is enough evidence to believe someone could have cleaned up all the evidence that had to result from 4 people being involved in the killing. Where are all the footprints from AK and RS? And further, how did AK clean up only evidence of herself and her boyfriend while leaving so much evidence of RG?

    6. I'm not sure how Italian law reads, but certainly in the U.S. it is true the prosecutor isn't required to prove motive. HOWEVER, we have a conspiracy to commit murder by three individuals, one which had to be formed almost instantly, even two of the conspirators had never met before. Despite various admissions from each of the defendants, RG never mentioned RS/AK, and RS/AK never mentioned RG, until a connection was proposed by LE (and they didn't say much about one another even then).

    So while motive may not be a prosecutorial burden in theory, in this case, the prosecutor's claim is so wild and unlikely, some explanation is to be expected. None was forthcoming during the trial.

    13. I imagine most of us here have served as jurors (I've been on three panels myself) and we're aware of what the jury is supposed to consider and disregard. But by the same token we all know, or should know, how difficult it is to "unknow" things; the more lurid and sensational, the more difficult it is to "unknow" them.

    As an example, look at the West Memphis 3 case. Not only have jurors admitted they considered a confession that was never introduced in one of the trials, the foreperson himself has admitted they discussed that "non-evidence" at great length. It happens.


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  15. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkmus View Post
    9. No CCTV footage of AK going to the cottage that night.

    -True. Camera wasn’t even pointed at a location where she would have crossed in front of. If there was any truth to this we would have CCTV footage of Rudy and RS as well. And them leaving.
    Not true at all. The person can be seen walking towards the cottage entrance gate at about 9pm. The camera only runs for a few minutes when a car is leaving the parking. The CCTV footage does exist, but it can't be proven that it is AK so it was not allowed in court. That doesn't mean it wasn't AK. I don't think it was the milkman


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  17. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It is also ridiculous to be smooching and playfully sticking out tongues while at the police station immediately after the discovery one's murdered roommate, but that is exactly what Amanda and Raffaele did. Just because the actions of Amanda and Raffaele are ridiculous (need I mention flipping cartwheels at the police station again?), it doesn't mean they didn't happen. Amanda and Raffaele behaved in a ridiculous manner at the time surrounding the murder of Meredith.
    I have behaved in similar circumstances on the serious injury of my toddler and the death of my grandmother. Do you think I killed them? I lean on compassion and humor to get me through the situation so I dont fall completely apart. Many moments are very sad after a tragedy.
    But over the hours and days your spririts can be lifted or a joke can be told to break the sadness. Sometimes it is all you have when you dont know what else to do.
    To think that a photographer would be there to capure just one one smiling moment and make some infernece of injustice is crazy.


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  19. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherlockh View Post
    Not true at all. The person can be seen walking towards the cottage entrance gate at about 9pm. The camera only runs for a few minutes when a car is leaving the parking. The CCTV footage does exist, but it can't be proven that it is AK so it was not allowed in court. That doesn't mean it wasn't AK. I don't think it was the milkman
    So you think it is AK walking on her own? All by herself. Just seconds from her home? Without RS or RG? And a 12in knife in her purse? Seriously?

    Any of the clothing was verified? Anything similar found missing? Anything in blood? Any photos of clothing that wasnt found?


  20. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by trillian View Post
    So you think it is AK walking on her own? All by herself. Just seconds from her home? Without RS or RG? And a 12in knife in her purse? Seriously?

    Any of the clothing was verified? Anything similar found missing? Anything in blood? Any photos of clothing that wasnt found?
    Absolutely. Where do I say anything about a knife? What is missing?


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  22. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by trillian View Post
    I have behaved in similar circumstances on the serious injury of my toddler and the death of my grandmother. Do you think I killed them? I lean on compassion and humor to get me through the situation so I dont fall completely apart. Many moments are very sad after a tragedy.
    But over the hours and days your spririts can be lifted or a joke can be told to break the sadness. Sometimes it is all you have when you dont know what else to do.
    To think that a photographer would be there to capure just one one smiling moment and make some infernece of injustice is crazy.
    I think it was Scott Peterson's lawyer who coined the phrase that "we all grieve in different ways", yet somehow, when people are truly grieving ... they all behave in a certain similar way that has become widely understood as grieving.

    Amanda and Raffaele behaved in ways that could be described as ridiculous immediately after, and in the fews days after, Meredith was murdered. One more ridiculous act, such as Knox carrying around a 12 inch knife, should not surprise anyone. The pair also presented several conflicting stories about the night of the murder such that neither of them have alibis ... memory failure attributed to smoking pot ... also ridiculous.


  23. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I think it was Scott Peterson's lawyer who coined the phrase that "we all grieve in different ways", yet somehow, when people are truly grieving ... they all behave in a certain similar way that has become widely understood as grieving.
    BBM: that is simply not true. It's not even true within my immediate family, much less for human beings as a whole. If you judged by appearances alone, you would have said my sister and I loved my brother, but our mother did not. Yet it was our mother who cared for him for the many years he was ill; no one was closer to him than she (and vice versa).

    Amanda and Raffaele behaved in ways that could be described as ridiculous immediately after, and in the fews days after, Meredith was murdered. One more ridiculous act, such as Knox carrying around a 12 inch knife, should not surprise anyone. The pair also presented several conflicting stories about the night of the murder such that neither of them have alibis ... memory failure attributed to smoking pot ... also ridiculous.
    Your semantics are inexact. That you find their behavior highly inappropriate is not the same as to say an action is highly illogical--even though the word "ridiculous" may be used in either case.

    If you think marijuana can't leave you with a fuzzy memory, then you haven't smoked much of it. This is particularly so if it is combined with alcohol. But, frankly, I think most of the conflicting stories arose from a the pressure of interrogation and the effort to say what the police seemed to want said.


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  25. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherlockh View Post
    Absolutely. Where do I say anything about a knife? What is missing?
    I think that was just a reference to what we were discussing on the previous page and not directed at you personally.


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