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Thread: Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #6

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I think it was Scott Peterson's lawyer who coined the phrase that "we all grieve in different ways", yet somehow, when people are truly grieving ... they all behave in a certain similar way that has become widely understood as grieving.

    Amanda and Raffaele behaved in ways that could be described as ridiculous immediately after, and in the fews days after, Meredith was murdered. One more ridiculous act, such as Knox carrying around a 12 inch knife, should not surprise anyone. The pair also presented several conflicting stories about the night of the murder such that neither of them have alibis ... memory failure attributed to smoking pot ... also ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    Many things can cause short term memory loss which include but are not limited to:


    Alzheimer’s disease and dementia
    age
    depression
    anxiety
    estrogen swings
    Low blood sugar levels
    AK and RS aren't elderly or have experienced a traumatic brain injury or pre-natal teratogen exposure or other events/circumstances which can cause dementia that we're aware of.

    Were either AK or RS showing symptoms of, or receiving treatment for, depression or anxiety? Abnormal hormonal and/or blood sugar levels?

    Were any of those things presented in the trial as a possible explanation of the shared confusion and memory issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Whatever it was, Raffaele had it too ... during the very same hours that Amanda had it.
    I know, right?! It's the most uncanny thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    Maybe we all do


    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    Many things can cause short term memory loss which include but are not limited to:


    Alzheimer’s disease and dementia
    age
    depression
    anxiety
    estrogen swings
    Low blood sugar levels
    Add:
    Sleep Deprivation
    12 angry Italians screaming gibberish/"stupid liar"
    head whacks
    a brown nosing interpreter that insists inflicted trauma and repressed memory

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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    AK and RS aren't elderly or have experienced a traumatic brain injury or pre-natal teratogen exposure or other events/circumstances which can cause dementia that we're aware of.

    Were either AK or RS showing symptoms of, or receiving treatment for, depression or anxiety? Abnormal hormonal and/or blood sugar levels?

    Were any of those things presented in the trial as a possible explanation of the shared confusion and memory issues?



    I know, right?! It's the most uncanny thing!





    Yah, according to them it was drug abuse ... we'll need to make a new note in the scientific journals that people can completely loose their memories after smoking one hashish joint ... shades of Reefer Madness.

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by miley View Post
    Add:
    Sleep Deprivation
    12 angry Italians screaming gibberish/"stupid liar"
    head whacks
    a brown nosing interpreter that insists inflicted trauma and repressed memory
    Police in Italy are like 12 angry Italians screaming jibberish jabberwalky? Were they whacking heads? Thump thump or thump ... thump?

    Do any thumps result in suspects repeating what thy are told to say after two hours of questioning? Children? Mentally defective? Anyone? Who confesses to murder after two hours of questioning ... forget about the thumps on the head - which appear to be fiction. We must keep in mind that Amanda thumped herself in the head not only during those two hours of questioning, but also at the cottage while pointing out the knife drawer in the cottage kitchen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    21:58
    Meredith’s Engelish phone recorded details of an attempt to call Voicemail; no phone traffic was generated according to the phone provider’s records, as would be expected if the caller disconnected before the welcome message finished, consistent with a parsimonious student (p350, p352, p353).
    how did Massei put it, I think it went something like...
    We can only surmise, Meredith laying back on her bed against her pillow, swinging her feet, giggling and randomly punching numbers on her cell phone -- dialing her mother (oops) dialing her v.mail (oops/giggle) dialing her bank (oops) rejecting photo from friend so no fees are incurred (doubt it)

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  10. #81
    what about xanax? xanax abuse can definetely cause memory loss like that.I've been suspecting that for the longest time now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by claudicici View Post
    what about xanax? xanax abuse can definetely cause memory loss like that.I've been suspecting that for the longest time now.
    no history of prescription drugs mentioned plus, they were drug tested and only a small amount of cannabis was detected

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  13. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    AK and RS aren't elderly or have experienced a traumatic brain injury or pre-natal teratogen exposure or other events/circumstances which can cause dementia that we're aware of.

    Were either AK or RS showing symptoms of, or receiving treatment for, depression or anxiety? Abnormal hormonal and/or blood sugar levels?

    Were any of those things presented in the trial as a possible explanation of the shared confusion and memory issues?



    I know, right?! It's the most uncanny thing!




    Flourish and Otto, how do you think that it came to be, that after 4 days of interrogation where they had both consistently maintained the same story of being at Raffaele’s all night, that suddenly, and within a couple hours of each other, they both told ILE relatively the same story - that Amanda had left the apartment that night, thus breaking their alibis?
    What was the catalyst for that change? Is it possible that ILE believed they had video surveillance of Amanda entering the cottage that night and told Raf this? If Amanda is guilty and she was actually confessing to being present during the murder, isn’t it a bit strange that her statements contain nothing about the events of that night that weren’t already assumed by police and that the story is only consistent with their belief that she had met Patrick that night – a theory of theirs that turned out to be completely wrong?
    If she was already confessing to being there why does the story suddenly stop at the murder, and not continue with what they did following it, like the alleged clean-up or what they did with the keys? Why was nothing new or relevant deduced from that interrogation if we’re to believe she was actually there?
    What does it tell you that instead of just bringing in Patrick for questioning and see if he had an alibi, police immediately arrested him despite Amanda’s letter stating her doubts about her statements which implicated him? Is it just another coincidence that ILE told the press the same day of the interrogation that "It is not excluded that in the next few hours one of the many persons interviewed in recent days might be converted into a suspect." And that the next day they announced “case closed” and that Knox had "buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them all in.”
    If Amanda was so willing to accuse Patrick, why did it take ILE’s misinterpretation of the text message to get her to do so, and why did she continue to deny it until the point where they convinced her she’d been traumatized and didn’t remember?

    These are most, but not all of the strange circumstances surrounding the interrogation on the night of November 5th.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Yah, according to them it was drug abuse ... we'll need to make a new note in the scientific journals that people can completely loose their memories after smoking one hashish joint ... shades of Reefer Madness.
    1. They didn't completely lose their memory of that night. They had maintained for 3 days prior that they had been at Raffaele's. On November 5th they somehow convinced themselves that Amanda could have left the apartment, something that only benefitted ILE. After that interrogation they quickly changed their story back to what it had been all along.

    2. Funny you mention Reefer Madness. We all know of and laugh at how ridiculous that old movie is. Ironically, it's exactly the same ridiculous notion that Mignini and Massei argue is the catalyst for Meredith being killed, when everybody knows that marijuana has the opposite effect on people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Police in Italy are like 12 angry Italians screaming jibberish jabberwalky? Were they whacking heads? Thump thump or thump ... thump?

    Do any thumps result in suspects repeating what thy are told to say after two hours of questioning? Children? Mentally defective? Anyone? Who confesses to murder after two hours of questioning ... forget about the thumps on the head - which appear to be fiction. We must keep in mind that Amanda thumped herself in the head not only during those two hours of questioning, but also at the cottage while pointing out the knife drawer in the cottage kitchen.
    Karl Fontenot confessed to a murder he didn't commit after only two hours. Like Amanda's, the story didn't fit any evidence. Unlike Amanda, he actually confessed to murder. It took two hours to convince Amanda that she'd been at the cottage when her roommate was murdered, but only after telling her that she wasn't remembering it because she was traumatized by the experience.

    Karl, an impressionable street kid with no family and few friends, was easier to break. After only two hours the police had another confession, one suspiciously similar to Tommy's. Problem was that the confessions shared some of the same wrong information.
    http://www.falseconfessions.org/cases-the-incarcerated

    I recommend reading the stories from the linked site. I know incredulity plays a large part in not believing that something like what Amanda claims could happen, until you see that it's happened before.

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    Fontenot wasn't mentally all there to put it mildly. AK is a bright young college student. You can't really compare these 2, IMO. I totally agree that Fontenot is innocent and his confession was coerced.

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  21. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherlockh View Post
    MK wasn't wearing white clothes. The problem I had with the statement was that it was stated as fact that there is not any CCTV footage of AK. The truth is that it can't be proven to be AK which is not the same thing.
    Legally, it is the same thing. But I understand your point.

    Unfortunately, a tape of AK approaching the cottage at 9 is contradicted by RS and AK watching a DVD until 9:46, and does nothing to explain the presence of RG. I am reasonably certain that is not AK in that video.

    (ETA otto posted a cite from the Motivation Report that has the DVD ending at 9:10 rather than 9:46. Still not early enough to put AK at the cottage "around 9", but closer.)
    Last edited by Nova; 02-09-2011 at 12:13 PM.

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  23. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    My semantics are inexact? What? I have said that Amanda and Raffaele are ridiculous ... let me keep it simple ... they are ridiculous people, particularly Amanda. She is a most ridiculous woman, deserving of ridicule for her actions.

    Studies show that prolonged abuse of soft drugs will eventually interfere with short term memory. That is, some (not all) events that occur under the influence of soft drugs will not be written to the long term memory. There are no studies that I'm aware of where someone like Amanda, who claims to have rarely used pot, has complete memory loss after smoking a little hashish. Amanda's ridiculous behavior after the murder is not inconsistent with Amanda running around with a 12" knife.
    Again, you are using "ridiculous" to mean both "socially inappropriate" and "functionally impractical." The usage is correct is both cases, but the meaning of "ridiculous" is not the precisely the same, and evidence of one does not provide evidence of the other.

    I.e., AK doing a cartwheel in the police station does not prove she ran around Perugia with a heavy, unsheathed 12" knife just for fun.

    The cases against AK and RS are very consistent: weak to non-existent forensic evidence that when challenged somehow always turns into evidence of inappropriate demeanor. The end result is that AK gets a quarter-century in prison for allegedly doing cartwheels; RS gets the same for, I don't know, knowing AK, I guess.
    Last edited by Nova; 02-09-2011 at 12:15 PM.

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  25. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    21:10:32
    The film file Amelie.avi closes on Raffaele’s MacBookPro laptop, from either being stopped, or reaching the end of the file (p327). Raffaele’s computer remains connected to the Net throughout the night and only 11 files are created, at regular intervals, by either the operating system (Mac OS X) or within the Mozilla Firefox browser cache; the P2P service also remains active (p328). The logs from Raffaele’s service provider, FastWeb, show no web page retrieval requests during this time period (p330).

    21:58
    Meredith’s English phone recorded details of an attempt to call Voicemail; no phone traffic was generated according to the phone provider’s records, as would be expected if the caller disconnected before the welcome message finished, consistent with a parsimonious student (p350, p352, p353).
    I took the 9:46 time from an anti-AK site, so I thought it was safe. I don't know why the time there differs from what I assume are times you got from the Motivation Report. Either way, it is unlikely that AK was home by 9.

    The reference to parsimony at 9:58 makes no sense whatsoever, unless MK was calling someone else's voicemail. If so, why isn't that person identified? If she was checking her own messages, maybe she hung up the phone when she heard "no new messages"; otherwise, it makes no sense to call your own voicemail, but hang up before you hear the messages to save minutes.

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  27. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Scott Peterson celebrated Laci's life by trying to pick up the babysitter etc., Casey Anthony celebrated her daughter's life by hitting the clubs and getting a tattoo, etc. Amanda celebrated Meredith's life by smooching, sticking out her tongue, buying lingerie, flipping cartwheels at the police station, etc.

    What do they have in common? They all grieve in a way that is unfamiliar to most people in the world.
    BBM: You've picked four examples of what you consider inappropriate behavior, events that took place over a week.

    1. AK kissed her boyfriend. This is unusual how? I've never heard that kissing is forbidden after a death.

    2. AK allegedly stuck out her tongue. How many times? Once? In what context? How many hours after the discovery of the body? Since this is such important evidence to to you, I'm sure you can give us the specifics.

    3. AK bought a change of underwear. We now know she went to a general store, not a store specializing in exotic lingerie. Her own clothes were locked in a crime scene, so she bought a change. How is changing one's underwear inappropriate?

    4. AK allegedly did one or more cartwheels at the police station. How many times? Once? In what context? How many hours after the discovery of the body? Again, I'm sure you have the specifics since this seems so important to you.

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  29. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleuthyGal View Post
    It's laughable that someone would choose to carry a 12" knife out with them if they didn't have to. And really, why would AK or RS have needed to? RS had his own (folding) knife.
    That is the very reason the weight, the size, the power of the knife, the transporting it knowing the control, the authority he has that he could make a snap decision and use that knife at will.

    Multiple weapons to the point of the ridiculous carried by an individual are not unusual as evidenced in the pages of this site.

    Young, impulsive [imo sociopaths] giddy with the thought of the possibilities with the reinforcing load adding bravery….impetus…..

    Maybe RS’s regular pocket knife was not adequate for the possibilities or the eventuality.

    I don’t mean to interrupt the conversation but I think if an understanding of the knife is to be had the closer examination of the fetish associated with knives and their role in the act is called for.

    A knife lover is going to want bigger not smaller and carrying it and any associated discomfort is all part of the attraction.

    The carrying of an unwieldy knife is a reminder of the move from thought to action.

    It also may have had some sort of significance to the couple.

    Obviously I feel the right people are in jail. I felt it even stronger seeing tape of the two sort of unexpectedly on high def on a huge TV. Chills ran through me. I wouldn’t want to run into either of them in a dark alley.

    I do feel for AK’s mother but her father and AK have a lot in common, imo.


    All IMO

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  31. #92
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    Per the evidence posted above (by otto, IIRC), RS had any number of knives that would have done just as well and were easier to transport. There is no testimony that he or AK fixated on a particular steak knife. (And, as I'm sure you know, there is no blood on the knife in question and very little DNA from the victim.)

    There is no testimony that AK and RS ran around Perugia with unconcealed (and unconcealable) knives.

    Ascribing actions to nonspecific and undiagnosed sociopathy is like blaming "satanism": it removes the alleged actions from the realm of human behavior and puts them in a place where "anything is possible" and therefore anything may be believed with or without proof. IMO, it isn't a coincidence that Mignini has tried both approaches.

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  33. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by claudicici View Post
    what about xanax? xanax abuse can definetely cause memory loss like that.I've been suspecting that for the longest time now.
    Amanda had both blood and urine tests and only trace amounts of cannabis was found in her system. There is misinformation with respect to the testing of cocaine. The drug itself does not stay in your system as long as the metabolite Although they test for cocaine they also test for benzoylegonine which stays in your system much longer as explained below. If she had ingested cocaine or been a habitual user it would of been all over every media outlet and tabloid immaginable. Xanax is also a benzoylegonine

    As per perugiashock below

    Technically none at all, since Amanda basically tested negative for drugs (only low traces of cannabis), therefore, didn’t need rehab therapy in jail. So useless you’re trying to say that she was a drug addict when it’s already acknowledged she was not.

    http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?e...AF0qelP71yVA--

    These tox screens they do now are much more sensitive and these can be detected for much longer that stated (they just dont want the bad guys to know)

    There is a bit of misinformation out there and that is cocaine is out of your system in 2-3 days. Well while that might be true LABS DON'T TEST FOR THE DRUG ITSELF. Yes, that is true, they look for the metabolite. A metabolite is something that the body produces when it ingests something, in the case of cocaine it is "benzoylecgonine" that will stay around long after the drug is gone, up to 30 days for a frequent user. THE DRUG ITSELF can stay in your bloodstream up to 72 hours. It can stay in your urine for about 2 or up to 7 days after single use. Habitual or chronic use can be detected in urine for up to 12 weeks depending on quantity, duration, and frequency of use.

    Cocaine can stay in your hair up to about 90 days. But there are also information that cocaine can stay in your hair for about 25 years after you only take it once

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  35. #94
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    very hard to make those facts fit the hypothesis

    These are tox screens folks. They are highly sensitive tests

    Yes Nova Xanax is from the same group of drugs, thus no cocaine, no xanax, there is a long list of these drugs under that category and i think they have tried to fit many of them in

    The fact remains she was tested, and these are very sensitive tests, she did not have any type of benzoylegonine in her system

    Only trace amounts of cannabis

    If anyone thinks they did not test her for just about anything under the sun they did. They were trying to find anything they could on her even to the point of telling her that she had HIV, thus we know they even went that far with the drug tests. They then gave her a false result to find out whom she had slept with so that they in turn could be tested when in fact she never tested positive and the test was given to her 2 times. The simply wanted a list of whom she had slept with
    Last edited by Allusonz; 02-09-2011 at 01:47 PM. Reason: add info

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  37. #95
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    Originally Posted by Allusonz
    Many things can cause short term memory loss which include but are not limited to:


    Alzheimer’s disease and dementia
    age
    depression
    anxiety
    estrogen swings
    Low blood sugar levels
    Below: Originally posted by Miely (sorry Miley i hit the wrong type of quote i apologize)


    Add:
    Sleep Deprivation
    12 angry Italians screaming gibberish/"stupid liar"
    head whacks
    a brown nosing interpreter that insists inflicted trauma and repressed memory
    Most which could be exasberated from stress from an interrogation or repeated questioning
    Lack of food or water over any period of time

    the Alzheimer’s disease and dementia
    age

    These i put in cuz i thought they might be appropriate in some instances
    Last edited by Allusonz; 02-09-2011 at 01:52 PM.

  38. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    very hard to make those facts fit the hypothesis IMO
    Which facts do you mean, Allusonz?

    If I understand you correctly, the same test for metabolites produced by cocaine usage would also show xanax usage, yes?

    Because I understand claudicici's question re xanax. I can say from personal experience that one doesn't have to "abuse" xanax to produce short-term memory loss. Combining it with even small quantities of alcohol can do the trick.

    But you are saying we can conclude AK had not used xanax, based on the tests LE would have performed on her.

    ***

    Of course, as Malkmus points out, neither AK nor RS claimed memory loss until that 4th day when they both suddenly changed their testimony to confirm a police theory that later proved incorrect. Thereafter, both defendant reverted to their original stories.

    Although marijuana use can produce a haziness of memory, I think the memory "gaps" in this case are a result of coerced testimony and the effort to mitigate that testimony rather than drug usage.

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    Giving a confession after about 2 hours sort of knocks out all these theories/false hope that it was sleep, food, or water depravation that was the cause of it .
    The Seeker / Sports Freak /

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  41. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Per the evidence posted above (by otto, IIRC), RS had any number of knives that would have done just as well and were easier to transport. There is no testimony that he or AK fixated on a particular steak knife. (And, as I'm sure you know, there is no blood on the knife in question and very little DNA from the victim.)

    There is no testimony that AK and RS ran around Perugia with unconcealed (and unconcealable) knives.

    Ascribing actions to nonspecific and undiagnosed sociopathy is like blaming "satanism": it removes the alleged actions from the realm of human behavior and puts them in a place where "anything is possible" and therefore anything may be believed with or without proof. IMO, it isn't a coincidence that Mignini has tried both approaches.

    A comparison to Satanism is not equivalent or relevant and shuts down a conversation that to ignore is naive.

    To take the point of the post then my opining that they are sociopaths is giving them the benefit of doubt.

    Ok, so if they had conscience that would inhibit their actions it was a case of wilding which would explain why they have no defense to speak of.

    Either way it came to bad end for poor Meredith.

    And expecting there to be honest testimony on behalf of knives and their feeling towards them would be pretty stupid for the accused of a knife attack to partake in would it not?

    There is nothing stupid about those two I will give them that!


    All imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    Giving a confession after about 2 hours sort of knocks out all these theories/false hope that it was sleep, food, or water depravation that was the cause of it .
    Do you know how much sleep, food or water AK or RS had during the days following MK's murder? If that info is available, I haven't read it.

    But those are merely aggravating factors. The primary motivation in coerced testimony is a desire to accommodate the interrogators, either to end the pressure of the interrogation itself or to avoid whatever punishment is threatened for non-cooperation.

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    I guess the question is, are AK and RS 'sociopaths?'

    If they didn't do this crime, are they still 'sociopaths?'

    Yes, yes I know many are convinced they did, but just consider the question for a moment.

    If they still acted the same way (hug, kiss, smile, buying underwear), but you had 100% proof they were not involved in MK's murder at all, would you still affix the same label to them?

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